How to adjust subwoofer?

[jeffswift1]

I spend my first weekend with my new 2016 LSV 23.  I have the stock Wake 23 LSV pack, the 12" rockford subwoofer with amp, 2 pairs of 8" wetsound tower speakers with 500 watt amp.  All from factory.

There is a "punch" control for the subwoofer.  It adjusts the subwoofer volume from inaudable to barely audible.  This is completely unacceptable for a sound system costing over $9,000.

1.  Is there a way to turn up the gain for this subwoofer beyond what the "punch" knob does?

2.  I've heard that this "punch" knob can be changed to control the tower speakers instead of the subwoofer.  I would prefer this because once a subwoofer is set correctly it seldom needs adjusting, but I adjust the tower speakers all the time depending upon who is doing what behind the boat.  Using the touchscreen to control the tower speakers by adjusting the front to back "fade" is very difficult to do while driving a wakesurfer.  Does anyone know how to change the "punch" knob to control the tower speakers instead of the subwoofer?

 

[mikeo]

10 minutes ago, jeffswift1 said:

I spend my first weekend with my new 2016 LSV 23.  I have the stock Wake 23 LSV pack, the 12" rockford subwoofer with amp, 2 pairs of 8" wetsound tower speakers with 500 watt amp.  All from factory.

There is a "punch" control for the subwoofer.  It adjusts the subwoofer volume from inaudable to barely audible.  This is completely unacceptable for a sound system costing over $9,000.

1.  Is there a way to turn up the gain for this subwoofer beyond what the "punch" knob does?

2.  I've heard that this "punch" knob can be changed to control the tower speakers instead of the subwoofer.  I would prefer this because once a subwoofer is set correctly it seldom needs adjusting, but I adjust the tower speakers all the time depending upon who is doing what behind the boat.  Using the touchscreen to control the tower speakers by adjusting the front to back "fade" is very difficult to do while driving a wakesurfer.  Does anyone know how to change the "punch" knob to control the tower speakers instead of the subwoofer?

 

There are a ton of writeups on how to "fix" the subwoofer, the most common is to replace the enclosure with a q-bomb box from amazon. The sub enclosure isn't sealed and in general isn't anything more than a protective cover for the back of the sub. If you're comfortable with it, one of the first things to do is to take the cover plates off the amp gain access panels and "tune" your amps. A few things to note if you're going to do this: 1. WD40 on a towel or rag will get the adhesive residue from the "warranty void if removed" stickers (don't spray your amps with WD40!) 2. The gains are set too low, but know what you're doing before you change them (there are lots of threads on how to tune your amps) 3. neither your dealer or Malibu will touch the amps if you adjust the gain, but you might be able to get Rockford Fosgate to honor a warranty claim if something goes wrong.

The "punch" control is worthless if you tune your stereo correctly, you don't want to crank the gain or crossover curve once you get it set correctly; look to wire your stereo so the boat speakers are on the front outputs and the tower speakers are on the rear outputs, then you can adjust the fade to change the volume between the tower and the boat. I've never seen the punch knob be able to be used as an alternate volume control, but I could be wrong. There is an RF box that allows this via a RF knob, or there are aftermarket solutions that work just as well for a lot less money. Once you have the fade set, you typically don't need to adjust it constantly. With the tower speaker locations being much more forward than in prior years (like mid-to-early 2000s) the tower speakers provide significant volume in the boat, almost making in-boat speakers (other than the sub) pointless.

FYI: I'm on my 3rd stereo rebuild project and it's only the first half of my second season with my '15; depending on what you want to do the stereo can be an ongoing evolutionary project.

[Josh4mc]

You can adjust the gain on the amplifier by removing the plate on the front. Before you turn up the gain I would at minimum pop out the sub and seal the factory box with silicone. It is a poor excuse for a box but once you seal all the gaps it will sound better. There are several threads on making your own box as well which would be the best option long term.

[shawndoggy]

best adjustment you can make is, as @Pnwrider suggests, to adjust the enclosure first. The reason that the gain is so low is that the sub will go into full on distortion mode and smoke itself pretty quickly in its present joke of a box.  But if you build a new box (or adapt the qbomb coated box) you can get the most out of the factory sub.  You won't win any SPL comps with the current sub, but it will sound a ton better inside a real box.

So, before you go twisting knobs and dials, the takeaway is that the sub needs to be put in a proper box first.

[85 Barefoot]

SD has forgotten more about 12 volts that I know, but I do disagree as the "best" adjustment for RIGHT NOW.  The punch knob will only attenuate (not "increase") gain.  Therefore, in its highest setting, that's the amp's current gain.  The amps from Malibu are very very detuned and in fact on one of my boats the sub was getting the high pass signal.  My guess is that if its barely audible, that's your issue.  I've had 2 recent "factory" systems.  Both were about the same volume, but for the sub on the high pass (should obviously be on low pass).  On one I said to heck with the warranty and tuned the crap out of the amps.  Sounded incredible.  Yes, even with my crappy enclosure.  The amps were just set WAY too weak (and incorrectly).  The "best" adjustment, certainly to get you through the summer, look at the amps, warranty be darned, and turn them up!  And check that the sub isn't on HP.  Need any help understanding what that means, feel free to respond.  If everything is set up correctly, you should not be unhappy with your system until its time to upgrade.  I'd wager a dollar your pass filters are wrong.

As for tower to cabin power, you can add a line control.  If the fader is what the factory adjustment is, that's really dumb because you're picking one or the other.  In my Axis the kicker HU allowed 2 zone control, allowing seperate audio settings for cabin and towers, not to mention volume.

[wdr]

+1 for all of the above. From Malibu, my sub was set on HP and the towers were set on AP with the in boats being the only correctly set amp. The sub enclosure was so poorly built it had a 1/2" gap along the upper front of the enclosure behind the front carpeted kick plate which was supposed to be sealed to the actual box. The weight of the amp made it sag and it is easy to tell if it is leaking. Just put on some "tennis shoes in the dryer music" and stick your hand behind the enclosure! Making a new enclosure and correctly tuning the amps was a major improvement for me. Factory warranty be damned, pull the stickers and tune them up! The next biggest and best improvement I made was installing the EQ, WS 420 in my case.

[David]

There is another important issue (that SD eluded to) with having a proper enclosure besides better output and response. Longevity and reliability. Once you re-tune the amplifier you will be asking a lot more from the subwoofer driver. That's okay because normally it can do much more. However, without a sealed enclosure, there is nothing to control the woofer against over-excursion, except its own mechanical suspension. And those parts will prematurely fatigue and can even fail. So after running a sub driver harder in a severely compromised enclosure for a long enough period you may not have much of a quality woofer left to use in the upgrade enclosure.    

[85 Barefoot]

David, I really respect your opinion (to OP, David, you will see if you search around that he might be as knowledgable as anyone on here about stereos), but we're talking about a guy with no sub output in a brand new boat.  Seems to miss the point a little being concerned with woofer over-excursion when the woofer ain't playing anything?

[85 Barefoot]

I guess I'm just a little sensitive to this issue.  I know it may be hard to accept a boat leaving the factory with something so big ans the high and low pass being reversed, so this isn't (just) an issue of "not sounding great" or "not very loud", it is literally barely moving.  Sealing with silicone, new boxes, all that stuff is great, but I'd bet at least $1 this setup isn't remotely connected properly...like, at all.

Edited June 20, 2016 by 85 Barefoot

[David]

12 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

I guess I'm just a little sensitive to this issue.  I know it may be hard to understand that this isn't an issue of "not sounding great" or "not very loud", it is literally barely moving.  Sealing with silicone, new boxes, all that stuff is great, but I'd bet at least $1 this setup isn't remotely connected properly...like, at all.

All that you're saying is absolutely true. Put that dollar aside.

Once the OP follows your instructions he will suddenly encounter the next and newest bottleneck.  

[MLA]

Adjusting the amp (or any other adjustments) gain with a poorly built box is like turning down the AC in july, with the windows open. 

[85 Barefoot]

 

12 hours ago, MLA said:

Adjusting the amp (or any other adjustments) gain with a poorly built box is like turning down the AC in july, with the windows open. 

 

Maybe, but turning the circuit breaker on to the AC is a start as well.

Jeff: Shawndoggy, David and MLA are all very respected audiophiles on here.  But...they're audiophiles and none of them would be happy with the stock setup anyway.  They are all correct that a better box will help ANY system, but I can assure you, if you're stereo doesn't sound as good as your car/truck's, it can and will in its stock form, deficient sub box and all, it just has to be wired correctly.  If your sub is barely audible, its not.  You have the high pass signal going to your sub and/or the amp turned way down.  I'm not saying the factory system will ever be a poolside Vegas club, but it's plenty for the vast majority of users.  

Edited June 21, 2016 by 85 Barefoot

[shawndoggy]

85 I totally agree that there's probably a little bit left on the table tuning wise, and that you can get the sub to sound better than it does from the factory.  The issue/problem is that the factory amp also VERY easily gives you the ability to smoke the sub if you aren't careful.  Oh, but we're all careful, right?  Haha I've been on a boat with an "adjusted" factory sub (IXFE's old 2012 VLX, which one of my partners bought), which is owned by a decidedly "non audiophile" who repeatedly turned the sub up until it sounded like it was ripping itself apart while he gave me that "yeah man, check out my beats" look.  

I am not an audiophile by any means.  I just like my music to be clear, then loud.  If any part starts to break up or sound bad, then that's the limit and there's work to be done before going louder.  Unfortunately, there are lots of people who, after a lifetime of mediocre car (and prolly home) audio, think that "that's what loud sounds like."  I mean no offense to @SnubNose, but his post about "smelling the sub starting to burn up" is indicative of this.

Now put that driver in a proper box and you can still abuse it to the point of distortion, but it's unlikely that you'd actually smoke it without really trying because (a) it'll be louder and clearer (i.e. sound good) and (b) the sub itself will have the support of an actual enclosure and will be able to handle the power better.

It's too bad that Malibu doesn't take the extra hour or two to prepare a proper enclosure, because I am totally with you on the factory system being enough for 99% of people.  Actual performance is less than the sum of the individual components, though, because of the crummy enclosure.  

[MLA]

At the end of the day, yes, the amp tuning needs to be proper. From the factory, it likely is not. However, tuning an amp, especially the gain, with a poor and too small of an enclosure is an uphill battle. Low-pass and more gain will certainly get the woofer moving, but with a lot of leaks in the box, even a proper gain setting to cause over excursion of the woofer. This can eventually lead to failure. Its true that you could use a meter or scope to dial int he gain to what would be proper for that amp and sub combo. You can set the cross-over by an electronic means so you get the roll-off beginning at the correct frequency. but with a poorly build enclosure, you may never see hear these improvements and likely never achieve cohesiveness between the in-boats and sub, all due to the enclosure. You may get the woofer "hitting" harder, but at what cost. Adjusting by ear and your setting will be all over the place chasing sound quality while fighting a bad box.

[85 Barefoot]

SD,  I hear you (get it?), but I'm not saying he needs to push his system past its capacity to make it more than barely audible.  As a recipient of a brand new boat with the high pass signal going to the sub, the low pass going to towers, the frequency cut off being crazy (wdr as noted above had the exact same issue) and OP getting a "barely audible" sub, he has a major system setup issue.  Had I not personally had this before and experienced the exact same thing (gains aside), I'd totally agree (and still do) with what you Crutchfield moonlighters are suggesting to fix but as crummy as it is, that box will support sub frequencies that are way more than "barely audible".  He's got a bigger immediate issue at hand.  JMHO.

...but don't kid yourself, you ARE an audiophile compared to the masses who are just happy with a little bass and am reception!

Edited June 21, 2016 by 85 Barefoot

[jeffswift1]

Thanks Guys.  I have seen feedback about the sub box going back many years.  I would have thought that Malibu would have fixed this on the 2016 model.  After all, they are constructing a small boat costing over $100K!  Poor construction seems a bit insulting, but I will attempt to take this brand new boat apart and fix their poor construction.

The tower speakers are on the front to back fader, which is controlled through the touchscreen after going through several option screens.  This is impossible to do while driving a surfer.  What box do I need to add on to control this from a knob, and could I instead just rewire the current sub knob to control the towers instead?  If so, how?

 

[shawndoggy]

no, the sub knob can't control the towers.

Most people would go with an equalizer mounted under the dash for zone volume control.  Something like the wetsounds ws420 or exile zld.

If you don't want/need the eq functions, you could go with PAC LC1s, a kicker zxmrlc, jl audio cl-rlc, or the new wetsounds ws220.

[MLA]

Jeff,

 

One thing to consider about using a simple volume control for just the tower amp. This would leave the in-boat speakers at what ever the head unit volume is. The knob would allow you to turn down the tower speaker, but never turn them up to a level greater than the in-boats. So, if you want loud music from the tower speakers to your rider, you will also get this same level from the in-boats. In my experience, most owners want the opposite. They want to turn down the in-boats, independent of the towers. 

For a simple yet effective zone volume control, I like a device like the Kicker ZXM-RLC Dual Zone Volume Controller. Paired with the current sub level knob, you would then have 3 zone control. Tower, in-boat and woofer. A step up from that would be something like the Wet Sounds WS-420 3 zone EQ or WS-220 4 Zone controller.   

[Simo]

My experience with the factory stereo on my 16 T22 Sp3. First of all, it did not sound bad but this system should "not sound bad", it should be jaw dropping. I have the Kicker HU, which I think is a pretty user friendly unit with a few qwirks. I took my boat to an audio shop that I have used before to have it tuned and to have a sub box built. At the last minute, I decided to add a WS 420. The shop said that the "box" was made of a piece of plastic and the worst he's ever seen. He also said that the amps were pretty much at the lowest settings possible. The sound difference is night and day. The 420 cost $300 and the box, tune and install around $400. Money well spent IMO.

[85 Barefoot]

30 minutes ago, jeffswift1 said:

Thanks Guys.  I have seen feedback about the sub box going back many years.  I would have thought that Malibu would have fixed this on the 2016 model.  After all, they are constructing a small boat costing over $100K!  Poor construction seems a bit insulting, but I will attempt to take this brand new boat apart and fix their poor construction.

The tower speakers are on the front to back fader, which is controlled through the touchscreen after going through several option screens.  This is impossible to do while driving a surfer.  What box do I need to add on to control this from a knob, and could I instead just rewire the current sub knob to control the towers instead?  If so, how?

 

Jeff, sounds good tackling your box if you're inclined.  If your sub is "barely audible" however, do yourself a favor and take a picture of your amp settings and post them or take it to a local  stereo shop.  If your description of "barely audible" is correct, its going to stay "barely audible" no matter what you do to he box until you get the filters right.  Heck just go back to your dealer and ask to hear another boat's stereo and compare.  You didn't get a bad box, you got the only kind of box they make.

[jeffswift1]

Thanks Barefoot.  I understand that I got the only kind of box they make.  It seems that building a sub box that doesn't fit the purpose is a bit like building a boat that doesn't float.  Why would anyone accept this on a high end boat??  If my boat sank because of inadequate design or construction I'm sure Malibu would stand behind it.  Why doesn't Malibu fix the sub box?  

[MLA]

1 minute ago, jeffswift1 said:

Why doesn't Malibu fix the sub box?  

Cause Rockford Fosgate and others say the box is perfect, just need to re-tune amps.  

[shawndoggy]

1 minute ago, jeffswift1 said:

Thanks Barefoot.  I understand that I got the only kind of box they make.  It seems that building a sub box that doesn't fit the purpose is a bit like building a boat that doesn't float.  Why would anyone accept this on a high end boat??  If my boat sank because of inadequate design or construction I'm sure Malibu would stand behind it.  Why doesn't Malibu fix the sub box?  

It's not so much like that exactly.  More like that it should (will) sound like your new F150's sub.  Decent bass while parked in the dealer's lot, but once you own it and are driving down the freeway and want to really rock out it starts to sound like poo.  In the case of the F150 they use cheap cheap cheap components all 'round (cheap box, cheap sub, cheap amp).  But here you've got a nice amp and a nice sub, it just needs a nice box to exploit those components.

If you truly cannot hear the sub AT ALL, then 85 is prolly right and a little "tuning" magic will get you at least to the "F150 level"

[85 Barefoot]

1 hour ago, jeffswift1 said:

Thanks Barefoot.  I understand that I got the only kind of box they make.  It seems that building a sub box that doesn't fit the purpose is a bit like building a boat that doesn't float.  Why would anyone accept this on a high end boat??  If my boat sank because of inadequate design or construction I'm sure Malibu would stand behind it.  Why doesn't Malibu fix the sub box?  

Because you're issue, in my personal opinion, if the sub is barely audible, is not the box.  As others have said, the box has some room for improvement, but I've had numerous factory systems and they can thump just fine in the factory box.  The greatest?  No.  would I blow them eventually?  Some people here think so, but I apparently never did.  The people strongly advocating for a new box as your fix are audio retailers or in SD's case, builds his own systems.  The factory system, when it is actually set up right, sounds really really good, unless you're someone who stresses about HU voltage, SN ratios, and $100 RCAs.  If your sub is "barely audible", it is not the box.  

 

That does not mean you'll have the loudest boat on the lake when you get the amps set up right, but the sub will be hella "audible".

Edited June 22, 2016 by 85 Barefoot

[David]

Let's separate the sub amp tuning and the faulty sub box as two distinct issues. BOTH need to be addressed. Here's what is happening with a small box that isn't sealed. First, a box with gaps at the seams is a box with a hole in it, not like a resistive port, but just a box with a hole. The woofer's rear energy is opposed to the front energy, and when these opposing radiations are allowed to meet, they cancel. One side is pushing, and the other side is simultaneously pulling. So the amplifier and woofer is working like crazy to pass air back and forth around the box perimeter with no impetus to displace air away from the woofer/box. All that work is expended without much useful result. The lower the bass frequency the more profound the cancelation becomes. Next, is the toll that is taken on an undamped woofer, particularly when the woofer is working so much harder than it needs to. Consider that the woofer might be traveling 1" peak to peak and violently changing directions 100 times per second. That much mass moving that far and that fast, creates a lot of inertia. So the woofer doesn't like to stop, change directions, or follow the amplifier's output signal. There are many types of woofers, but this type woofer is dependent on the air-spring of the trapped air in the box to control the woofer, so that it sounds tight, and so that it doesn't wear itself out. When the box isn't sealed the intended box function isn't contributing and that translates to excessive wear and tear on the woofer.