V-drive tranny/driveshaft in Sunsetter 21 VLX newbie question

[SkipGundlach]

After diligent searching all over the US, ironically, one 'just down the road' was relatively high on the remaining total of just under 20 candidates for the V-drive crossover, Diamond hull, candidate for my son and me to teach his boys how to ski and wake.  The boat has what appears to be a ballast bag center, where the ski bin would otherwise be, but the wedge looks like it's never been used...

https://www.singletonmarine.com/details/malibu/wakesetter-21-vlx/jAEWJcf7GqkiZ4NwN2AHXg==/ is a bare-bones example, and has some prop damage which suggests the boat went over a shallow flat rocky or pretty-hard area.

It was re-engined in 2015 and at the moment I'm not certain of the engine hours, though the consigned dealer sez 350, and somewhere I saw that the hour meter sez 0.6 - so we're not really certain what the hours are.  As well, there's some oil in the engine area which makes him nervous, though that could just be schmutz left over from minor oil change spills.  Plus, while they'd do it, the dealer would charge an absurd amount to run the codes, so he wants to get an engine survey for a certainty on the engine condition.

I, on the other hand, would like to pull the shaft and get the inevitable not-straight-after-that-bump straightened, plus either (if possible) get the prop rebuilt, or replaced.  If it were a big deformity in one blade, I'd worry about the transmission and/or the shock plate at the flywheel, but that's not the case, and the test drive was relatively smooth except for a small segment of the RPM range (which I guess at being a harmonic imbalance of thrust vs major dynamic balance issues, as that would more likely be an all-revs vibration.

And, before he took it out, he and the dealer guy attempted to pull out the white rope (think of the lashing line common at Home Depot/Lowes) which had fouled the cutlass bearing, only partly succeeding.  I'm guessing that bearing's never been changed, as to do so with the shaft in it CAN be done it's a great deal more work than when it's out.

And, finally, if all that's going to happen, I'd want to verify, or resolve, shaft alignment before calling it a day with the driveline.

But, I've never touched, let alone messed with a V-drive.  Anyone have a manual page showing how I get to that attachment to release the coupler (so the shaft can come out), and align, if needed, when it goes back in?  And while I've got it apart, I'd replace the packing in the gland.  I've done all of that on a much bigger driveline, straight tranny, on the boat I lived on for 15 years, so I'm not afraid of it, but certainly am ignorant.  However, it would also be useful to have the Morse fish code name for the cutlass bearing (or the shaft/case/length dimensions), and the prop packing stuff size (I used teflon impregnated square rope on my sailboat)...

Pointers, please, so I'm smart when I start digging?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip

PS My apologies; the pictures I'd want you to see are in a dropbox, which I can't link, and I can't insert photos directly...

[UWSkier]

Working around a V drive is a pain, but it's doable.  Since you're planning on pulling the shaft, much of the rest becomes fairly easy.

That's a nice clean '01!

The gunk in the bilge can just be bilge gunk since that area isn't usually bone dry.  One thing to check though is the V drive oil level.  The bottom seals can let go on those and drain the oil (straight 50w) into the bilge.

Removing the coupler from the shaft is a pain.  There's a nut that you probably won't be able to get a wrench on.  I ended up sucking it up and overpaying for the machined-down socket that skidim sells.  https://skidim.com/system-socket-1-06/

Once the nut is off, you get to experience the joy of pressing the shaft out of the taper.  I did this by taping a bunch of washers together and re-tightening the coupler to the transmission flange, using the washer stack to press out the shaft as I tightened the coupler.  That was loud when it popped.

Assuming your strut is straight, changing the cutlass bearing is easy.  Get the white vesconite bushings as they last longer and make less horrible sounds if you turn the prop dry (don't do this).

If you're handy with electronics, you can build your own cable and read your own codes fairly easily using a home-made USB cable and a Windows laptop.  Details are in this thread.  

 

[justgary]

Keep in mind that the engine hours would be total for both engines on the MEFI unit unless it was reprogrammed.

[SkipGundlach]

1 hour ago, UWSkier said:

Working around a V drive is a pain, but it's doable.  Since you're planning on pulling the shaft, much of the rest becomes fairly easy.

That's a nice clean '01!

The gunk in the bilge can just be bilge gunk since that area isn't usually bone dry.  One thing to check though is the V drive oil level.  The bottom seals can let go on those and drain the oil (straight 50w) into the bilge.

Removing the coupler from the shaft is a pain.  There's a nut that you probably won't be able to get a wrench on.  I ended up sucking it up and overpaying for the machined-down socket that skidim sells.  https://skidim.com/system-socket-1-06/

Once the nut is off, you get to experience the joy of pressing the shaft out of the taper.  I did this by taping a bunch of washers together and re-tightening the coupler to the transmission flange, using the washer stack to press out the shaft as I tightened the coupler.  That was loud when it popped.

Assuming your strut is straight, changing the cutlass bearing is easy.  Get the white vesconite bushings as they last longer and make less horrible sounds if you turn the prop dry (don't do this).

If you're handy with electronics, you can build your own cable and read your own codes fairly easily using a home-made USB cable and a Windows laptop.  Details are in this thread.  

 

I'm spoiled; I have only owned direct drive before, and changing tranny fluid (suck up existing, put replacement in the same way, with large syringe for the purpose = clean and neat) and engine oil at the same time, with couplers secured with opposed wired set bolts and keyway slots.  I'd have to press it off in the same way but I used a socket of the appropriate size rather than a stack of washers; once I got it past the set bolt move (tiny bit) it usually came off easily.  And they were always easily visible and accessible; I have no clue where these are in this boat, not owning it and merely scratching my head to figure out where it would be with (presumed) an engine on top of it.

For my liveaboard sailboat, I made up a cutlass puller/pusher from SS threaded rod and bronze nuts (avoided spalling), with appropriately sized washers to either pull the cutlass through the larger pipe I had on the outside, or pull it in against the larger-solid washer (a through-hull washer backing up a large washer spanning the  strut channel); once there, through the set-screw hole, a strong center punch into the housing, in with the set screw with locktite on it and it was over.  I have no idea what I'd do here other than hope there was enough clearance behind  the strut to get a hammer and punch to get it out, or, last-gasp, a sawzall to open a gap that I could then compress the remainder of the bearing.  And, I don't know the dimensions of the bearing (or the Morse 'fish' name of it; my sailboat home's was a COD, e.g.).  Which, I agree, I wouldn't run dry.

As to the engine hours, I don't know when the board (MDC-1600?) was changed, but there definitely is a newer one installed now, with the old, damaged one, still in the boat.

Thanks for your reply.  Unfortunately, I'm 9 hours away from my son, who's not a mechanic at heart, and even I, whose college nickname was Gas Station based on my mechanical inclinations, until I had hands and eyes on it, am nervous about accomplishment, so I expect that if he buys it, it won't get done until I'm back in the neighborhood.

So, how do I find this transmission??

Sigh.  That sounds funny to me, but it's not intended that way, as I've never seen one, yet.  Want a new clutch and throwout in your 4-speed Hurst on your 55 Chevy 348 in your 55 ragtop?  No problem; about an hour, with nothing more than a crescent wrench...

L8R

Skip

[Nick55]

Your maintenance will be almost the same as a direct drive, but the shaft coupling is under the transmission.  You’ll have V-drive fluid to change in addition to the transmission, and the Indmar manual will explain it all very clearly.  Cutlass bearings work the same as your sailboat. I did my old Supra the same way, hacksaw blade to cut the bushings longways, then fashioned a puller out of a piece of pipe and washers with threaded rod.  I pressed the new composite bushings back in the same way.  I bought the vesconite bushings and goretex packing rope from Discount Inboard Marine (SkiDim.com), and I’ll say, their support is excellent if you have questions. One cool thing on these boats, if you know the shaft size the packing is the same, likely 3/16”, and the cutlass bearings are based off the shaft and strut sizes, and SkiDim can likely help you identify it based off your boat info.  You could also use a caliper and measure the old bushing while it’s still on the boat. 
I would also fully expect and plan on cleaning and repacking the trailer hubs and checking/repairing the brakes as needed.  

[SkipGundlach]

Thanks for the responses so far; I have a very talented prop shop in the area which - from their ads - suggest the repair of the prop will be routine.

Anyone know the actual length of a factory shaft for this boat?  Because I also discovered an eBay seller (Great Lakes Skipper) who sells NEW shafts with couplers in most cases, for under $300 delivered, which might be close to what I'd spend with a machine shop to true that shaft!

L8R

Skip (and indirectly Michael, the actual buyer/owner)

Edited March 7 by SkipGundlach
more info

[BlindSquirrel]

Meh, don't let anyone scare you about working on the v-drives. Working around a boat engine in general is challenging. Is sitting comfortably with a beer in one had and a nut driver in the other to change the impeller on a direct drive easier than being upside down, not able to see what you're doing in limited space when changing it on a v-drive?  Well, maybe...

Here is a thread with photos on when I removed my coupler. I did not need any tools other than normal and a heat gun. You should replace the shaft seal with a new fancy dripless one like I did. 

 

[Nick55]

Skip, I think you’re getting ahead of yourself with looking at shaft replacements.   They are stainless and typically, a prop is the first thing to give, second if there is a direct hit, the strut may bend.  Those can usually be straightened on the boat even close enough that a minor realignment of the engine makes it just fine.  
 

Also, if you’re interested in a boat and a trailer that’s mechanically ready to go, I have a 2000 Supra Santera for sale for less than the boat you’re looking at.  The sun pad and drivers seat needs reupholstered but the running gear and overall the boat is solid.  

[SkipGundlach]

48 minutes ago, BlindSquirrel said:

Meh, don't let anyone scare you about working on the v-drives. Working around a boat engine in general is challenging. Is sitting comfortably with a beer in one had and a nut driver in the other to change the impeller on a direct drive easier than being upside down, not able to see what you're doing in limited space when changing it on a v-drive?  Well, maybe...

Here is a thread with photos on when I removed my coupler. I did not need any tools other than normal and a heat gun. You should replace the shaft seal with a new fancy dripless one like I did. 

LOL I'm not scared - just haven't seen, let alone done, one, yet.

I'm ok with doing stuff by feel; I've not dug into this or any other V-drive boat to get any idea of what challenges in access there are, but if anyone can do it, I believe I can, enhanced by 38" sleeved-arms and (though sometimes a hindrance) huge hands. I've also been upside down, encased in a lazarette on the sailboat I used to live in, so understand unusual working conditions ☺

Thanks for the article link; it helps me visualize what I'm up against.  However, a new item surfaces; there's another cutlass bearing in the boat-end (where you attach the packing/dripless gland) hardware?  How would I find out what bearings it/they take/s?  Morse uses fish names to make sure there's no confusion with dimensions, but both of these look pretty long (my sailboat home, e.g., took a 5" long bearing, but these look substantially longer).

45 minutes ago, Nick55 said:

Skip, I think you’re getting ahead of yourself with looking at shaft replacements.   They are stainless and typically, a prop is the first thing to give, second if there is a direct hit, the strut may bend.  Those can usually be straightened on the boat even close enough that a minor realignment of the engine makes it just fine.  

I know ☺ Just looking ahead.  I've not had eyes on this boat, and my son's not informed enough to looked for stuff like bent struts.  However, a bent strut, particularly if the boat-end tube is a hard point (cutlass bearing rather than just an open tube), correct alignment is pretty critical there, and THEN if it's not perfect (and the original alignment wasn't, either), for sure the engine/tranny connection will want alignment. 

On my sailboat, it was just a tube into the boat, and the gland.  Center the shaft in the tube, align the tranny/engine unit to the coupling (I wanted no more than .003 difference in the alignment points on a 9' shaft, e.g.), and set the gland (whether dripless or standard).  In my case, I was enamored of, and installed a dripless, but it eventually needed the bellows and bearing surface replacements, nearly the cost of a new unit, and if it had failed at sea, I was sunk, because it was a wide-open entry for water.  I replaced it with a new standard gland the last time I pulled it.

In our boats, likely the bilge pump could keep up until we could ground or pull-out the boat to prevent sinking, but it still makes me a bit nervous ☺

In any event, the seller is - the agent tells us - digging in his heels, and the agent, when it was discovered that the radio/sound system didn't work, allowed $400; the seller sez don't bother with an engine survey if you're expecting any more money off, cuz it's not happening...

The prop shop wants about $260 for a dynamically balanced rebuild (219 static), about, it seems, half of what a replacement bronze-looking prop would cost.

It's all do-able; the question is net cost and aggravation...

Thanks for all the pointers and encouragement.  Wish I were there so I could lay eyes on the challenge...

L8R

Skip, on Grounded Pig (sailboat was Flying Pig; the condo doesn't move much, though)

 

[SkipGundlach]

Thanks for all the responses.

At this point, the information is merely instructional in case of some calamity, as the dealer neglected to disclose his dealer fee and garbage charges resulting in a much higher net cost in the end.

That caused a revolt, and a late arrival in our potentials was one which my notes said MUST SEE (presuming from all the other responses that travel would be required; the above/discussed vessel was in driving distance for my son).  His inspection of the specifics led to the same opinion as mine, and it's under contract (and under shrinkwrap for the winter/early spring, as it's in Holland MI where weather gets nasty).  It's the subject of the thread of looking for inexpensive tower solutions elsewhere here.

I'll be flying up sometime next month to do a survey and sea trial, with the expectation that my son will complete the sale and have it shipped to him in early May, the ETA of a finished home at which to keep it.

Thanks for the as-it-turned-out-uneeded help/tutorial on driveshaft replacement; you'll hear from us as we proceed with the purchase and use and teaching kids how to ski.  If I had stuff on the web to pull from, I'd include pix, but since only url-sourced pix can come here, I'm hampered ☺