2024 Boat Show impressions

[Cole2001]

Anyone check out the Dallas show? From what I saw on social media lots of heavy hardware with sold signs. 

[The Hulk]

52 minutes ago, Cole2001 said:

Anyone check out the Dallas show? From what I saw on social media lots of heavy hardware with sold signs. 

TX is still boom town USA for numerous economic sectors. Detached from reality of the rest of the country! Haha

[CaptainMorgan]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:00 PM, Five Cent Worth said:

I spend the second most time in a MC vs by Bu's.  My best friend has a X24.  He came from a NXT22 (literally didn't surf...) and then a X22 to the X24.  Great boats.  I would buy one.  I believe they were some of the first for the added freeboard, cool feel and you could argue their rear seats are alone worth looking at their X series models.  However, the low end and medium towers look like coat hangers and the premium over equivalents make / models is staggering.  Plus, in our market, they are on their third, maybe fourth, local dealer in five years.  At one point they had TWO dealers in the same city...  (Who does that?!?)

Also, I much prefer the gate surf wave over the tab.  

+1 for this.  I'd estimate i've spent probably 150hrs in/behind an X24 and an XT22 over past couple years; both very nice and really well put together.  screens take some getting used to and tuning wave is annoying, but if money were no object, an X24 would get a good look (my buddy paid literally 2X what i did when we bought at same time a few years ago and the waves are nearly equivalent - down to personal preference probably of surf gate vs tabs).  Does seem like a redesign is probably due; the 2019 X24 i'm in a lot especially seems identical to whats still offered in 2024

[Slayer]

We have another boat show, albeit smaller than the January show, here in SE MI this weekend.  I'll be going there Friday afternoon and plan to spend more time with other boats than I did at the January show.  I was only there for 2 hours, so I didn't spend as much time evaluating things I'd like.  

I agree with @Five Cent Worth assessment of MC.  We looked very closely at getting an XT24 when we got our 25LSV and looked again after purchasing our 25.  We demoed 2 XT24's.  Great boat, great wave, but definitely long in the tooth, particularly for the price point.  An X24 became available and we looked closely at it as well, but the price point was absurd.  We couldn't justify the cost premium for the boat.  I will say that the reason we were considering the switch had more to do with the dealer than the brand of boat.  Ultimately we decided the premium cost didn't bring premium performance. 

While I know it's now available in the XT line, the biggest detractor we had was the lack of surf exhaust.  It was standard in the X series, but not offered until 2023 in the XT line as an option.  That sucked for us.  The boat was much louder than ours.  Wave performance was good, though, and we really liked the boat.  At the same time, paying more for an XT24 than what we paid for our 25LSV didn't make any sense. 

This week, we'll be spending some time with Nautique, Centurion, and Supra to really experience what they have to offer.  We think this will be our last season with our current 25LSV.  At the January show, I did spend a fair amount of time in the Malibu booth.  I think like MC, Malibu is getting long in the tooth as well.  There's so much that could be done to improve on a great platform, but shy of new gel lines, Malibu hasn't really done much in the last few years.  I'm not slamming them by any means.  We love our 25 for so many reasons.  Yet we are planning to demo a G23 this year, and likely will demo others as well.  I'm attracted to Centurion but we lack dealer support in our market here.  That's the biggest deterrent for us.  Going that route with limited dealer support (3+ hours away and low volume) means potentially detrimental resale value.  With Malibu, Nautique, or MC, resale in our market has historically been strong.  Regardless, we're excited to spend some time crawling around boats and having a couple adult beverages.    

[Five Cent Worth]

4 hours ago, Slayer said:

While I know it's now available in the XT line, the biggest detractor we had was the lack of surf exhaust.  It was standard in the X series, but not offered until 2023 in the XT line as an option.  That sucked for us.  The boat was much louder than ours.  Wave performance was good, though, and we really liked the boat.  At the same time, paying more for an XT24 than what we paid for our 25LSV didn't make any sense. 

We couldn't get over that they didn't have a surf pipe option on the XT25 & XT24.  It's going backwards in safety vs forward.  Perplexing...  

[Slayer]

42 minutes ago, Five Cent Worth said:

We couldn't get over that they didn't have a surf pipe option on the XT25 & XT24.  It's going backwards in safety vs forward.  Perplexing...  

I get it.  We were perplexed by that, too.  There's a lot to like about the XT line and they perform well but hard to justify the expense.  

[The Hulk]

Anyone want to guess who the large dealer is that is soliciting for a sale?

$68Mrev, approximately $3M EBITA 

 

 

[bcoppess23]

1 hour ago, The Hulk said:

Anyone want to guess who the large dealer is that is soliciting for a sale?

$68Mrev, approximately $3M EBITA 

 

 

Tommy's??

[justgary]

4 hours ago, The Hulk said:

$68Mrev, approximately $3M EBITA 

Is it just me, or is 4.4% kind of low for earnings?

[NWBU]

19 minutes ago, justgary said:

Is it just me, or is 4.4% kind of low for earnings?

It's not great. There's trades guys on here doing better than that, on much lower top lines, and with no flooring line risk.

Most of the PE's looking at deals this size are going to pass and instead continue rolling up HVAC and other home services contractors. 

[skurfer]

On 3/11/2024 at 9:45 AM, Five Cent Worth said:

We couldn't get over that they didn't have a surf pipe option on the XT25 & XT24.  It's going backwards in safety vs forward.  Perplexing...  

Standard on those models in 2024

[The Hulk]

5 hours ago, justgary said:

Is it just me, or is 4.4% kind of low for earnings?

Ya, and willing to bet that was 2022 numbers. Seems most companies soliciting PE these days seem to leave out 2023 numbers on their pitch decks.

That EBITA is waaaay to much risk for the return IMO. Hard sale 

[The Hulk]

5 hours ago, NWBU said:

Most of the PE's looking at deals this size are going to pass and instead continue rolling up HVAC and other home services contractors. 

Ya it's crazy! But buy up a lot of one thing and jack pricing up in the area. It's amazing the price difference of some of these places when you realize they are still mom and pop vs ones that are PE owned.

PE still has a lot of money on the sidelines they are needing to deploy. What's odd is the often below par performance with investors money, yet their fund sizes continuously grow along with the PE firms size. As their firm grows so does the fee and debt burden they bestow upon their portfolio companies making it harder for positive returns. Most PEs are looking for 20% range or something they can change to get near that or higher.

While not News anywhere..Midwest manufacturing is falling off a cliff now, layoffs everywhere.

What still remains odd is the hit/miss out there at boat shows. Some doing great others bust... So odd to say the least 

 

Edited March 13 by The Hulk

[dizzygti]

Rich people are hard to predict.  🤣

[oldjeep]

The idea of "saving" 100K on a wake boat amuses me

 

[CaptainMorgan]

1 hour ago, oldjeep said:

The idea of "saving" 100K on a wake boat amuses me

 

We're approaching territory of "buy a 26lsv and get a free T220 for a friend"

[MikeR397]

On 3/11/2024 at 12:45 PM, Five Cent Worth said:

We couldn't get over that they didn't have a surf pipe option on the XT25 & XT24.  It's going backwards in safety vs forward.  Perplexing...  

it’s still not even an option on the NXT line. One of the deal breakers for me 

[Slayer]

So, last weekend I went to our local spring boat show.  I spend time with Centurion, Nautique, Supra, and of course, Malibu.  I heard an interesting rumor that I haven't been able to validate, but was told by a few people that Tommy's was declaring bankruptcy.  I found that interesting and can't validate it, so don't chew me up.....I'm simply regurgitating what I heard which may or may not be true.  I've not looked into it any further and simply considered it a rumor.  However, I do know that our local Tommy's outlet has received approval to build a new facility for $6+M with a stand along vertical 4-story glass tower to showcase boats.  Seems stupid to me, but whatever.  

Notwithstanding the rumor mill, we decided we're going to demo the following boats this summer:

1. G23
2. SE 550
3. SL 550
4. Ri 245
5. Ri 230

Our thoughts on the brands are as follows.

Centurion

I like certain elements of the Ri offerings, and dislike others.  They seem well built, but I feel fit and finish is better in other brands.  Super and Nautique seemed to shine in that aspect from what I saw at the show.  I still can't stand the way the dual screens are laid out in the Centurion dash.  It just doesn't seem right.  There were also some metal trim pieces that I didn't care for and some of the interior panels didn't seem well attached.  Otherwise, I like the boats.  I dislike that you have to remove and store the folding bench back rest like you do on Axis.  For the price, I would think they could come up with a better solution.  Regardless, we're interested in a demo to see how they perform.  We also weren't thrilled with the under seat storage.  It seemed shallow and for our use and what we put in our boat, it felt inadequate.  For us, another point against Centurion is dealer support.  The closest dealer is about a 3.5 hour drive from us, which we're not thrilled with.  While we never would order the colors or patterns of the Ri 245 at the show, the show price was $218k.  It's a lot of boat for the price and was very well equipped.  

Supra  

There's a lot to like about Supra these days.  I feel like they've come a long way in the last few years.  Stylistically, I think they look good as well.  Interior seemed very well put together.  Fit and finish was very good.  Seating seemed comfortable and flexible.  I like the port side rear facing flip up allows leg room like Natuique and MC as well.  Having audio controls on the passenger side is a bonus, too.  We also thought the twisting of the throttle knob to actuate the stern thruster is pretty cool.  I like it better than what Malibu offers for actuating stern turn.  Not a big deal for us because we don't have it on our boat and likely wouldn't order it, but thought it was worthy of mention.  We also liked the new audio offering in the Supra.  It sounds great, and is well balanced out of the box.  I wouldn't make a decision based on that, but I thought it was noteworthy.  My dislikes have more to do with storage than anything.  It seems like the storage is very shallow and somewhat limited.  I do like the vertical aft storage.  I could see that being useful.  I did not like how cramped the engine compartment is but I did like how easily accessible the sea strainer is.  That's smart.  Hopefully Malibu takes note of that.  Very easy to get to and that's a benefit to anyone who services their boats.  Access elsewhere seemed challenging and the sales guy there didn't know much about serviceability, so getting intelligence there was useless.  I also didn't like that the ballast is bags.  No hard tanks (to my knowledge anyway).  Again, the sales guy didn't seem to know, but when you pull up the storage floor access hatches, it appeared to be all bags.  Not a deal breaker, but for the price I would expect something more stout than just bags.  The storage areas were all finished, which is a bonus in my view.  Unlike my Malibu, everything was finished and there were no sharp edges and no exposed fiberglass.  Also noteworthy, the gel in the storage areas was pretty good.  Very much unlike our current boat.  While they only had an SL 550, we are interested in demoing both the SL and SE.  FWIW, the SL felt good for a 23' boat.  Most 23' feel small coming from our 25 LSV.  One other thing about Supra that gives us a little pause is the dealer.  We don't know much about them and haven't had any experience with them.  We also know not one soul who's ever purchased from them so we have zero word of mouth to rely upon either.  Based on our dealer experience for service and delivery at Tommy's, we're very apprehensive about that.  One nice thing was the service offering for the boat show price.  They were including 3 years of service in the sale price.  Again, they didn't have an SE there, but the fully loaded SL was $227k for a boat show price.

Nautique

There isn't much to dislike about the G23.  It's well equipped, well detailed, fantastic fit and finish, and all areas are clean and well appointed.  Access for maintainability is superb in comparison to the other boats we looked at.  My only complaint about the G23 is depth of storage yet while depth isn't the greatest, it's consistent and again, well done.  Otherwise, I have nothing negative to say about the boat.  It felt big for a 23' boat.  The one they had there was expensive and had the telescoping tower.  That's not something we see much of in our market.  Show price on the fully loaded unit they had was $247k.  The one they had at the Detroit show in January was equipped as we would order it and it was $218k as I recall.

We've pretty much written off MC.  We like them from a style and performance perspective, but the cost is obscene when compared to what you can get in other brands for less money.  When an XT 24 is effectively the same cost to me as a G23, it's tough to justify getting a bass boat helm seat post.  Makes no sense.   

We still love Malibu boats.  Our 25 LSV has a lot to love, but some things not to love, mostly in the fit and finish department.  Our last 3 Malibu's haven't been very good and my old 2006 RLXi was better than anything I've owned since with respect to fit and finish.  One thing I thought was surprising is how bad the fit and finish was on the M242 they had at the show.  I like that boat a lot, likely wouldn't buy one, but there's a lot to like about it.  However, the cheesy, poorly crafted storage above the engine simply sucked.  It was not only poorly crafted, but the fasteners were not correctly vertical and the panels rattled like crazy when the stereo was at a moderate volume.  Tommy's even commented on how bad it was and said Malibu was going to fix that for them.  I would hope they would on a $300k boat.  Otherwise, we liked that boat a lot.   The balance of the Malibu line was meh.  They all seem a bit tired in a sense.  Not much in the way of innovation and there are some creature benefits in other brands that Malibu needs to take note of.  One of which is the leg room on the port side when the flip up seat is deployed.  That's smart any way you look at it even if it does effect under seat storage efficiency.  I still love the depth of storage offered in Malibu, specifically on the larger offerings.  It's one of the things we love most about our 25 LSV.  It's effective, but simply poorly crafted.  I'm not sure what others have experienced, but the conditions of our under seat storage are simply horrible.  Lots of sharp edges, piss poor gel coat, bad gel patching (ours looks like someone smeared roofing tar over it) and I haven't seen that kind of quality in any of the other boats we dove into.  Sad, but true.

Our takeaway from the show is that all manufacturers have improved the game.  Some more so than others, but improvements are noted across the board.  We're both drawn to the G23 and SE / SL.  We struggle a bit with 23' boats based on the size and flexibility of our 25 LSV, but since we're not buying this season and only demoing, it's a mute point.  We're looking to replace our 25 LSV next season.  We regularly have 6-14 people on our boat.  With our oldest graduating this year, we're left with only 3 kids, 2 of which we only have 50% of the time, so it's not unrealistic for us to go back to a 23' boat.  However, performance and wave characteristics are what will drive our decision on the next one, which will likely be one we'll have for another 2-3 seasons.  Our salesman at Tommy's said some interesting things are coming for 2025, so we'll certainly wait on any decision until we know what those offerings are.  Summer should be fun demoing all these boats, though.  

 

[CaptainMorgan]

55 minutes ago, Slayer said:

So, last weekend I went to our local spring boat show.  I spend time with Centurion, Nautique, Supra, and of course, Malibu.  I heard an interesting rumor that I haven't been able to validate, but was told by a few people that Tommy's was declaring bankruptcy.  I found that interesting and can't validate it, so don't chew me up.....I'm simply regurgitating what I heard which may or may not be true.  I've not looked into it any further and simply considered it a rumor.  However, I do know that our local Tommy's outlet has received approval to build a new facility for $6+M with a stand along vertical 4-story glass tower to showcase boats.  Seems stupid to me, but whatever.  

Notwithstanding the rumor mill, we decided we're going to demo the following boats this summer:

1. G23
2. SE 550
3. SL 550
4. Ri 245
5. Ri 230

Our thoughts on the brands are as follows.

Centurion

I like certain elements of the Ri offerings, and dislike others.  They seem well built, but I feel fit and finish is better in other brands.  Super and Nautique seemed to shine in that aspect from what I saw at the show.  I still can't stand the way the dual screens are laid out in the Centurion dash.  It just doesn't seem right.  There were also some metal trim pieces that I didn't care for and some of the interior panels didn't seem well attached.  Otherwise, I like the boats.  I dislike that you have to remove and store the folding bench back rest like you do on Axis.  For the price, I would think they could come up with a better solution.  Regardless, we're interested in a demo to see how they perform.  We also weren't thrilled with the under seat storage.  It seemed shallow and for our use and what we put in our boat, it felt inadequate.  For us, another point against Centurion is dealer support.  The closest dealer is about a 3.5 hour drive from us, which we're not thrilled with.  While we never would order the colors or patterns of the Ri 245 at the show, the show price was $218k.  It's a lot of boat for the price and was very well equipped.  

Supra  

There's a lot to like about Supra these days.  I feel like they've come a long way in the last few years.  Stylistically, I think they look good as well.  Interior seemed very well put together.  Fit and finish was very good.  Seating seemed comfortable and flexible.  I like the port side rear facing flip up allows leg room like Natuique and MC as well.  Having audio controls on the passenger side is a bonus, too.  We also thought the twisting of the throttle knob to actuate the stern thruster is pretty cool.  I like it better than what Malibu offers for actuating stern turn.  Not a big deal for us because we don't have it on our boat and likely wouldn't order it, but thought it was worthy of mention.  We also liked the new audio offering in the Supra.  It sounds great, and is well balanced out of the box.  I wouldn't make a decision based on that, but I thought it was noteworthy.  My dislikes have more to do with storage than anything.  It seems like the storage is very shallow and somewhat limited.  I do like the vertical aft storage.  I could see that being useful.  I did not like how cramped the engine compartment is but I did like how easily accessible the sea strainer is.  That's smart.  Hopefully Malibu takes note of that.  Very easy to get to and that's a benefit to anyone who services their boats.  Access elsewhere seemed challenging and the sales guy there didn't know much about serviceability, so getting intelligence there was useless.  I also didn't like that the ballast is bags.  No hard tanks (to my knowledge anyway).  Again, the sales guy didn't seem to know, but when you pull up the storage floor access hatches, it appeared to be all bags.  Not a deal breaker, but for the price I would expect something more stout than just bags.  The storage areas were all finished, which is a bonus in my view.  Unlike my Malibu, everything was finished and there were no sharp edges and no exposed fiberglass.  Also noteworthy, the gel in the storage areas was pretty good.  Very much unlike our current boat.  While they only had an SL 550, we are interested in demoing both the SL and SE.  FWIW, the SL felt good for a 23' boat.  Most 23' feel small coming from our 25 LSV.  One other thing about Supra that gives us a little pause is the dealer.  We don't know much about them and haven't had any experience with them.  We also know not one soul who's ever purchased from them so we have zero word of mouth to rely upon either.  Based on our dealer experience for service and delivery at Tommy's, we're very apprehensive about that.  One nice thing was the service offering for the boat show price.  They were including 3 years of service in the sale price.  Again, they didn't have an SE there, but the fully loaded SL was $227k for a boat show price.

Nautique

There isn't much to dislike about the G23.  It's well equipped, well detailed, fantastic fit and finish, and all areas are clean and well appointed.  Access for maintainability is superb in comparison to the other boats we looked at.  My only complaint about the G23 is depth of storage yet while depth isn't the greatest, it's consistent and again, well done.  Otherwise, I have nothing negative to say about the boat.  It felt big for a 23' boat.  The one they had there was expensive and had the telescoping tower.  That's not something we see much of in our market.  Show price on the fully loaded unit they had was $247k.  The one they had at the Detroit show in January was equipped as we would order it and it was $218k as I recall.

We've pretty much written off MC.  We like them from a style and performance perspective, but the cost is obscene when compared to what you can get in other brands for less money.  When an XT 24 is effectively the same cost to me as a G23, it's tough to justify getting a bass boat helm seat post.  Makes no sense.   

We still love Malibu boats.  Our 25 LSV has a lot to love, but some things not to love, mostly in the fit and finish department.  Our last 3 Malibu's haven't been very good and my old 2006 RLXi was better than anything I've owned since with respect to fit and finish.  One thing I thought was surprising is how bad the fit and finish was on the M242 they had at the show.  I like that boat a lot, likely wouldn't buy one, but there's a lot to like about it.  However, the cheesy, poorly crafted storage above the engine simply sucked.  It was not only poorly crafted, but the fasteners were not correctly vertical and the panels rattled like crazy when the stereo was at a moderate volume.  Tommy's even commented on how bad it was and said Malibu was going to fix that for them.  I would hope they would on a $300k boat.  Otherwise, we liked that boat a lot.   The balance of the Malibu line was meh.  They all seem a bit tired in a sense.  Not much in the way of innovation and there are some creature benefits in other brands that Malibu needs to take note of.  One of which is the leg room on the port side when the flip up seat is deployed.  That's smart any way you look at it even if it does effect under seat storage efficiency.  I still love the depth of storage offered in Malibu, specifically on the larger offerings.  It's one of the things we love most about our 25 LSV.  It's effective, but simply poorly crafted.  I'm not sure what others have experienced, but the conditions of our under seat storage are simply horrible.  Lots of sharp edges, piss poor gel coat, bad gel patching (ours looks like someone smeared roofing tar over it) and I haven't seen that kind of quality in any of the other boats we dove into.  Sad, but true.

Our takeaway from the show is that all manufacturers have improved the game.  Some more so than others, but improvements are noted across the board.  We're both drawn to the G23 and SE / SL.  We struggle a bit with 23' boats based on the size and flexibility of our 25 LSV, but since we're not buying this season and only demoing, it's a mute point.  We're looking to replace our 25 LSV next season.  We regularly have 6-14 people on our boat.  With our oldest graduating this year, we're left with only 3 kids, 2 of which we only have 50% of the time, so it's not unrealistic for us to go back to a 23' boat.  However, performance and wave characteristics are what will drive our decision on the next one, which will likely be one we'll have for another 2-3 seasons.  Our salesman at Tommy's said some interesting things are coming for 2025, so we'll certainly wait on any decision until we know what those offerings are.  Summer should be fun demoing all these boats, though.  

 

Great write up, very curious to hear how opinions change or get reinforced after on-water demos (doesnt Malibu say Truth is on the Water? So call their bluff). 

Look forward to hearing about them and seeing if Malibu adopts/innovates significantly in 2025 as you were led to believe 

[kstateskier1]

1 hour ago, Slayer said:

I also didn't like that the ballast is bags.  No hard tanks (to my knowledge anyway).  Again, the sales guy didn't seem to know, but when you pull up the storage floor access hatches, it appeared to be all bags.  Not a deal breaker, but for the price I would expect something more stout than just bags.  The storage areas were all finished, which is a bonus in my view.  

 

 

Is there a reason you think hards tanks are better than bags, especially when they are hidden?  Most people with older boats that I know with hard tanks have switched to bags because of issues with the tanks.  

[dshack]

2 minutes ago, kstateskier1 said:

Is there a reason you think hards tanks are better than bags, especially when they are hidden?  Most people with older boats that I know with hard tanks have switched to bags because of issues with the tanks.  

Can the bag % full be accurately monitored? Seems like thats 1 big advantage to hard tanks. 

[The Hulk]

9 hours ago, Slayer said:

So, last weekend I went to our local spring boat show.  I spend time with Centurion, Nautique, Supra, and of course, Malibu.  I heard an interesting rumor that I haven't been able to validate, but was told by a few people that Tommy's was declaring bankruptcy.  I found that interesting and can't validate it, so don't chew me up.....I'm simply regurgitating what I heard which may or may not be true.  I've not looked into it any further and simply considered it a rumor.  

Stop speculating you sound like the HULK now for wake sakes!! 

Edited March 20 by The Hulk

[Slayer]

14 hours ago, kstateskier1 said:

Is there a reason you think hards tanks are better than bags, especially when they are hidden?  Most people with older boats that I know with hard tanks have switched to bags because of issues with the tanks.  

@dshack is right.  That's one of my biggest complaints about bags.  The other thing I don't like about bags is that they can move around in the boat and when they do, they can be forced into a position where getting them full isn't possible.  I like hard tanks for those reasons.  While we know hard tanks have their issues, I think they're a better solution for primary ballast and bags are decent for supplemental ballast.  I have a friend with a MC XT22 who's had his center tank replaced 3 times in the last 3 years. 

[Slayer]

15 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Great write up, very curious to hear how opinions change or get reinforced after on-water demos (doesnt Malibu say Truth is on the Water? So call their bluff). 

Look forward to hearing about them and seeing if Malibu adopts/innovates significantly in 2025 as you were led to believe 

Thanks.  I'm curious to know how my opinions change as well after demos.  We shall see.

[dalt1]

17 hours ago, Slayer said:

It seems like the storage is very shallow and somewhat limited.

I find the storage in my SL is much larger than Malibu. Centurion storage was a deal breaker for me.  I have storage under every seat up front including the center front with room for a box anchor and my grapple anchor. Both rear storage compartments next to engine dividers is 100% dedicated storage as there are no Plug and play bags to have to worry about filling. The bags under floor as you surmised are correct. I have not heard of any issues with them and bonus is if you were to have an issue they are easily removed and repaired or replaced unlike the hard tanks. @Slayer if you want to DM me as I now have a year with mine, would love to give you any review/comparisons I have after my 3 Malibus.