Deep water starts - help!!

[Timmo]

Hi Everyone,

Been away from the forum for a while, great to see some familiar names still around.

I need help/advice re: slalom deep water starts. The season here in Australia is now well and truly with us and after missing the whole of last season due to the flooding of the Murray River, on whose banks we virtually live it's good to get back in the water. My issue is deep water starts, my muscle memory seems to have deserted me. I'm forever being pulled over the front of the ski and can't for the life of me correct this. I'm 92kgs and using a 69" Radar Senate 2013 vintage. I have used this ski for many years without an issue at this weight and had a thoroughly enjoyable time with it. I don't believe I changed anything in my approach but it just doesn't seem to work at the moment. I consider myself to be an average skier, I don't      carve up the course but can be pretty handy across the wakes. I have recently tried starts with a Jobe Axiom 2, wide body ski which works fine, but I'm busting to get back onto the Senate, love that ski.

I'm left foot forward

Right foot dragger ie start with right foot out of the ski

Knee up to chest 

Ski pointing slightly left

Arms straight

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, sick of diving head first into the river!!

Edited December 21, 2023 by Timmo

[ahopkins22LSV]

I’ve never started dragging a foot but my keys for started are:

Knees tucked as much as possible. 
Handle at my lead foot toes
Let the boat do the work - be patient. 
 

Id guess you are trying to stand too quickly. I’d stay tucked a bit longer, maybe try thinking of keeping you butt down? Like I said I’ve never dragged a foot but it sounds like your center of mass is getting over the front of the ski. Also since you are left foot forward double check that you have the rope on the right side of the ski. 

[Steve B.]

Use 35' off or something. Short rope helps immensely. Big breath. Ease into enough throttle. Don't overthink it.

edit: and if you have a tower, use that.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Steve B.

[SkiPablo]

4 hours ago, Timmo said:

Hi Everyone,

Been away from the forum for a while, great to see some familiar names still around.

I need help/advice re: slalom deep water starts. The season here in Australia is now well and truly with us and after missing the whole of last season due to the flooding of the Murray River, on whose banks we virtually live it's good to get back in the water. My issue is deep water starts, my muscle memory seems to have deserted me. I'm forever being pulled over the front of the ski and can't for the life of me correct this. I'm 92kgs and using a 69" Radar Senate 2013 vintage. I have used this ski for many years without an issue at this weight and had a thoroughly enjoyable time with it. I don't believe I changed anything in my approach but it just doesn't seem to work at the moment. I consider myself to be an average skier, I don't      carve up the course but can be pretty handy across the wakes. I have recently tried starts with a Jobe Axiom 2, wide body ski which works fine, but I'm busting to get back onto the Senate, love that ski.

I'm left foot forward

Right foot dragger ie start with right foot out of the ski

Knee up to chest 

Ski pointing slightly left

Arms straight

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, sick of diving head first into the river!!

i had this struggle longer than I want to mention.   If you are going over the front you are getting too hard of a pull up, ask your driver to give you less throttle! I can't tell you how many times I thought I wasn't getting enough, but it was actually the opposite.   I'm about 100kg on a 69" Radar Theory and ask for about 1/4 throttle on a v8 boat.

Also, if you are looking for anything to concentrate on... just put a little bit of pressure on your left foot (that will cause the ski to stay at an angle and climb out of the water) - if you don't apply any pressure your ski will just push against the water more vertically.   HTH

[GaleK]

Tip that helped my wife: get your face down so your chin is on your chest. This helps keep your arms totally forward and your body weight more so as well. This helps get the ski to plane out, keeps the tip up.

[Rednucleus]

Check out Ball of Spray - do a search for deep water starts, there is a long discussion that may be of help.

[justgary]

I think that since you are going out the front of the ski that you are in really good shape.  Most people struggle with lateral control due to not leaning forward enough.  I agree with the comments about too much throttle.  Ask the driver to really pay attention to the acceleration.  I usually roll throttle in over a three to four second period until the engine gets to about 3,500 RPM.  This is probably a bit more than 1/4 throttle, but that's all it feels like I'm applying when I drive.

As soon as the skier is up, I adjust the throttle to assist the Perfect Pass with quickly finding its set point.  For the 30 MPH that my friend and I ski, that means pulling the throttle back a bit.  For faster skiers, they generally don't have trouble getting up anyway, so they get a bit faster pull out.  I know exactly one really good skier who wants you to floor it when driving his Nautique and just let the digital throttle control take over from there.

Since you drag your back foot, make sure you aren't dumping yourself by applying too much pressure with that leg.  What happens when you try to get up with your foot in the rear loop?

[IJM]

Oh timmo man I feel your pain. I went through a bad streak too. Seems it took me more than the first pull to get it right. I don’t know how I fixed it, even after reading forums and watching YouTube videos. Agree with ahopkins22lsv, be patient and let the boat do the work. I find if I try to pull myself up, I go right over the front of the ski. Overthinking it cursed me too. The more I tried to fix it the worse it got. Went back to the basics as ahopkins22lsv mentioned. Keep at it! It will come back soon.

[Woodski]

Some additional tips:   for left foot forward > rope on right side of ski.  I find palms down better than baseball grip on handle.  Try 'in gear' to tighten rope followed by 'hit it' to pull up, that may help aligning the rope / ski / you and stop any flailing / fidgeting.  Make sure your vest fits snug / tight and does not ride up as you sit in the water.  As the boat pulls me, I let my knee hit my chest (I have double boots so both feet in) as that lessens the load on the rope / hands and reduces the pull over the front.  Rope up high (tower / pylon) helps, we used that to help a double hip replacement skier get back in the game.  As a RFF skier I find it easier to pop up if I am offset to the right of the boat, you might try off to the left, you will naturally swing to the left thus not in to the boat wake.  It also keeps your ski from hitting the rope.  You might also try asking some 'pro' ski school teachers for some advice - Terry Winter, Jack Travers, April Coble-Eller (search YouTube - she has an excellent video) are all top shelf.  And finally, realize when you pop up you will go 'damn, that was easy' followed by 'what the heck did I do last time' ... Good luck.  Off the wall suggestion if you have a decent driver, do you have a dock you could sit on?

[Rednucleus]

And make sure your shorts are not baggy parachute water grabbers!

[Bluefishcay]

I struggled with this as well.  Need to roll hips forward to get the ski under you.  Sort of a push motion once you start coming up.  

[Timmo]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:58 AM, justgary said:

I think that since you are going out the front of the ski that you are in really good shape.  Most people struggle with lateral control due to not leaning forward enough.  I agree with the comments about too much throttle.  Ask the driver to really pay attention to the acceleration.  I usually roll throttle in over a three to four second period until the engine gets to about 3,500 RPM.  This is probably a bit more than 1/4 throttle, but that's all it feels like I'm applying when I drive.

As soon as the skier is up, I adjust the throttle to assist the Perfect Pass with quickly finding its set point.  For the 30 MPH that my friend and I ski, that means pulling the throttle back a bit.  For faster skiers, they generally don't have trouble getting up anyway, so they get a bit faster pull out.  I know exactly one really good skier who wants you to floor it when driving his Nautique and just let the digital throttle control take over from there.

Since you drag your back foot, make sure you aren't dumping yourself by applying too much pressure with that leg.  What happens when you try to get up with your foot in the rear loop?

Having 2 feet in the bindings is something I've only tried a couple of times with no success. I learnt the beach start first in my early teens and then learnt the deep water start with one foot in and one dragging, a progresion from the beach start. Always been successful up to now.

[UWSkier]

Remember to let the drag leg go straight behind you, not off to the side.  It should feel like you're doing a split when the boat takes off.  If it doesn't, your leg isn't straight behind you.  Dragging a leg requires less throttle than two footed starts, but way more front hamstring strength.  Make sure you stretch that well before jumping in.

[granddaddy55]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:40 PM, GaleK said:

Tip that helped my wife: get your face down so your chin is on your chest. This helps keep your arms totally forward and your body weight more so as well. This helps get the ski to plane out, keeps the tip up.

and allow you to breath when water covering head and face!! which calms you down snd this calm allows boat to do its work as you wait it out. But for sn inboard you should be popping right up making sll of this unnecessary.  its the silly dragging of rear foot giving him problems . no pressure on rear of ski keeping tip more up so it easily remains out of water which helps you more instantly plane out

[Timmo]

Thanks everyone for your responses, a bit there to think about! I'll keep you informed of progress once I get back in the water. It's summer here but the weather has been very strange, we usually have hot weather by Christmas (30-40c) but Christmas day was the coldest for 20 years, plus it blew a gale and rained all day!! Hard to get the crew motivated in these conditions. Hope you all had a good Christmas and have a happy new year. 

[Timmo]

Once again thanks everyone for all the advice, much appreciated. Well, since this thread we've done a bit of skiing over here, in between trips interstate visiting grandchildren and a bit of ill health. I decided to keep skiing on the Jobe "fat ski" however for the medium term as I do enjoy the ease of starting and less strain on the back etc. However it was always my intention to get back on the Senate before the season ends and that is what happened yesterday. The day was beautiful, if a little chilly in and out of the water with very calm conditions and we had the river to ourselves and so I decided to give it a go. First attempt was oh so close but ended up over the front of the ski again, the second attempt was absolutely perfect, I was up and out of the water in the blink of an eye, don't ask me what was different, it just happened. I think my son who was driving, and is the only person I really trust as a driver hit the sweet spot and I think I dragged my right leg further back, gee it felt good!!! That's the first time up on that ski for about 3 years due to Covid lockdowns and severe flooding of the river Murray. Went mad crossing the wake for the rest of the ski and enjoyed it so much, love that ski. The aim now is to nail it everytime, should be easy??

Happy skiing everybody.

Edited April 22 by Timmo

[Woodski]

Awesome, well done 👏

[UWSkier]

7 hours ago, Timmo said:

Once again thanks everyone for all the advice, much appreciated. Well, since this thread we've done a bit of skiing over here, in between trips interstate visiting grandchildren and a bit of ill health. I decided to keep skiing on the Jobe "fat ski" however for the medium term as I do enjoy the ease of starting and less strain on the back etc. However it was always my intention to get back on the Senate before the season ends and that is what happened yesterday. The day was beautiful, if a little chilly in and out of the water with very calm conditions and we had the river to ourselves and so I decided to give it a go. First attempt was oh so close but ended up over the front of the ski again, the second attempt was absolutely perfect, I was up and out of the water in the blink of an eye, don't ask me what was different, it just happened. I think my son who was driving, and is the only person I really trust as a driver hit the sweet spot and I think I dragged my right leg further back, gee it felt good!!! That's the first time up on that ski for about 3 years due to Covid lockdowns and severe flooding of the river Murray. Went mad crossing the wake for the rest of the ski and enjoyed it so much, love that ski. The aim now is to nail it everytime, should be easy??

Happy skiing everybody.

That's the difference for me having an easy pop-up vs a rodeo start on my Senate too!

[Timmo]

On 4/22/2024 at 7:55 PM, Woodski said:

Awesome, well done 👏

Thanks, pretty chuffed as its been so long with covid lockdowns and floods keeping us out of the river was beginning to think I'd see 70yo (the new 50) before we got back into the water!! It's great that people such as yourself in this forum are so helpful, every little tip helps. To get back on the Senate was just marvelous, something only a skier would understand.