Engine not cranking - Response TXI

[aussietl]

Hi All - Reaching out for some ideas on what to check.

I have issues witht he engine cranking on a 2017 Response TXI

Its the non-Open edition so only has key start instead of a large touch screen.

When I go to start the engine, I can turn the switch to "On" and all the dash lights up as expected.

Turning the switch to start results in nothing. Its similar to if the throttle control is not in Neutral and doesnt start.

The first time it happened, I checked the throttle position to ensure it was in neutral.

Wiggling the key in the switch finally made the engine crank and start. Each time for the rest of the day wiggling the key would eventually start the engine.

I assumed it was the ignition switch so replaced it with a new one. The engine started 10 times out of 10 in the driveway.

Next day out a few days later on the river. It did it again. Exactly same symptoms so its definitely not the switch. Diagnosing again today cant fault it.

Trying to work out what to check next. I'll have my multi-meter with me next time we go out but I'd rather fix it before hand.

Does any one have a wiring diagram of a 2017 TXI?

Assuming everything goes back to the ECU, where is the ECU located? Is there a pinout of the ECU available?

I'm wondering where the ignition switch and neutral interlock wire up to.

It might be a loose wire but everything seems ok.

 

[Steve B.]

This is probably the first place to start:

No Start Troubleshoot Guide

I'm sure others will chime in, but it sounds like a lanyard or fuel pump relay or oil switch issue.

[SkiPablo]

if I'm reading you right it's not turning over at all.   I would check your battery connections and clean the grounds under the dash and also check the positive line going to the starter.

[electricjohn]

The main components of the crank circuit are the keyswitch, the neutral safety switch, and the slave relay. The starter solenoid is powered through the slave relay which is located with the EFI relay and fuel pump relay somewhere near the ECM. The crank circuit wires will be yellow or yellow with assorted colored tracers (typically red and black) on them. I believe my neutral safety switch is located on the transmission.

Pablo may be on to something above though. I have had the problem he is describing at the battery, but I would also lose the dash display when attempting to crank.

Edited December 4, 2023 by electricjohn
yellow wires

[shawndoggy]

do gauges come up at key up (from off to on but before start)? 

NO: would want to eliminate lanyard (perhaps bypass for testing purposes)

Does fuel pump run at key up (from off to on but before start)?

YES: then likely either (a) something on the starter circuit (swap fuel and starter relays to test), or (b) neutral safety switch.  I can't remember how Malibu's NSS works but I think it makes ground, so if the trans is in gear it won't make ground which means the starter relay isn't grounded and thus starter won't crank.

[aussietl]

Thanks everyone for the input so far and ideas.

All the gauges do come up at “on” position.

I removed the lanyard with no effect but i guess that doesn’t mean the lanyard switch is not faulty.

When moving from “on” to “start” there is no relay noise, no engine crank and gauges don’t move suggesting it’s not battery or a ground issue.

I suspect it is a sticking relay or wiring issue in the started circuit which is why I’m thinking neutral issue etc.

Where are these relays located?

Where is the ECM?

Could it a be circuit breaker in the foot well?

 

[csleaver]

Low system voltage and loose or corroded ground cables and power cables are the most common issues that result in a no-crank problem, so check those first.  Check the condition of the engine harness plug as well.

This is my understanding of the neutral safety and starter relay circuit for a 2017 Malibu Txi with the Monsoon 410 GM 6.0L Challenger engine from Pleasurecraft:

While cranking, the starter relay in the engine fuse/relay box should have constant system voltage to pin 30, switched voltage from the keyswitch to pin 86, switched ground from the ECM on pin 85, and voltage from pin 87 to the starter solenoid. 

The starter relay pin 30 voltage is supplied by a red wire from the B+ post on the starter solenoid, through a 100 amp fuseable link cable, and the 20 amp Maxi fuse on a red/purple wire in the fuse/relay box.  The starter relay 87 pin is connected to the small starter solenoid post on a yellow/red wire.  The switched voltage to the starter relay pin 86 is supplied voltage from the dash ignition switch "I" terminal on a purple/white wire, through the boat harness and kill switch to pin "D" on the round engine harness connector, then on a purple wire through the engine harness to the starter relay.  The switched ground from ECM pin 89 during a start request goes through a black wire to a square Deutsche connector to an orange/purple wire through the boat harness, to the neutral safety switch inside the shift/throttle controller, then through an orange/pink wire to the square engine Deutsche connector, through a black wire in the engine harness to pin 85 on the starter relay.  While cranking, the keyswitch supplies voltage from connector "S" on a yellow/red wire in the boat harness, to pin G on the round engine harness, through a yellow/red wire in the engine harness to ECM pin 42 to initialize a start request.

 

[aussietl]

49 minutes ago, csleaver said:

Low system voltage and loose or corroded ground cables and power cables are the most common issues that result in a no-crank problem, so check those first.  Check the condition of the engine harness plug as well.

This is my understanding of the neutral safety and starter relay circuit for a 2017 Malibu Txi with the Monsoon 410 GM 6.0L Challenger engine from Pleasurecraft:

While cranking, the starter relay in the engine fuse/relay box should have constant system voltage to pin 30, switched voltage from the keyswitch to pin 86, switched ground from the ECM on pin 85, and voltage from pin 87 to the starter solenoid. 

The starter relay pin 30 voltage is supplied by a red wire from the B+ post on the starter solenoid, through a 100 amp fuseable link cable, and the 20 amp Maxi fuse on a red/purple wire in the fuse/relay box.  The starter relay 87 pin is connected to the small starter solenoid post on a yellow/red wire.  The switched voltage to the starter relay pin 86 is supplied voltage from the dash ignition switch "I" terminal on a purple/white wire, through the boat harness and kill switch to pin "D" on the round engine harness connector, then on a purple wire through the engine harness to the starter relay.  The switched ground from ECM pin 89 during a start request goes through a black wire to a square Deutsche connector to an orange/purple wire through the boat harness, to the neutral safety switch inside the shift/throttle controller, then through an orange/pink wire to the square engine Deutsche connector, through a black wire in the engine harness to pin 85 on the starter relay.  While cranking, the keyswitch supplies voltage from connector "S" on a yellow/red wire in the boat harness, to pin G on the round engine harness, through a yellow/red wire in the engine harness to ECM pin 42 to initialize a start request.

 

Thanks csleaver - That's a detailed explanation. Hopefully your understanding is correct and that will head me ion the right direction.

I'll get into in the next couple of days.

[aussietl]

I think I have found my issue thanks to the comments here, especially from @csleaver.

 

I was able to remove the starter relay, and then, putting a multimeter across the coil terminals of the starter relay I was able to do a lot of wiggling, switch on and off etc without actually starting the engine.

I finally worked out there was consistency in failure when moving the forward/reverse control from neutral.

The relay would not always engage (based on the presence or lack of voltage across the coil).

I remove the side panel to get to the harness attached to the control lever.

 

Applying slight pressure on the 12 pin Deutsch connector I was able to engage/disengage the relay.

 

I pulled the apart the two halves of the connector and found there were two pins that were not seated correctly. One of them definitely purple wire.

I have now seated the pins and reconnected the connector.

Will have to wait until next outing which will be in a week or so but I’m relatively confident I’ve found it.

 

[aussietl]

OK and now a final update

Put the boat in the water a few weeks back (just got back home from holidays so a slight delay in posting)

Boat would go into gear, but not throttle above idle. MIL (Malfunction Indicator Light), "Service Required" and loud beep on buzzer on applying throttle.

Replaced the faulty connector completely as a first step, still had issues and finally diagnosed as a faulty Throttle controller assembly.

 

Replaced the throttle controller and all good. Ten days skiing, 40 hours later all good (albeit a little more expensive to repair than I would have liked)

 

Thanks for the help everyone.