New to me 98 Response, Family wants to surf some so wanted to share setup and get feedback.

[TEC3]

Hey Crew,

New here and we love our 98 Response closed bow. Got it 3 weeks ago and are trying to play before it gets too cold.

We don't ski, we tube, want to try wakeboarding, we float, and the wife and I enjoy trying surfing(We've gone once on our boat)

Our friends helped hook us up so we tried a basic setup and this week plan on trying to adjust. (We are beginner boat owners and surfers). I know its a ski Slalom boat and not for surfing, but it's paid for and we love it. Looking for easy surfing as we probably aren't going pro surfing anytime soon.

What we have Access to-(NOT WHAT IS RUNNING IN VIDEO):

Fat Sac Fat Seat (1525lbs)

2 Fat sac locker bags (275 each)

1 Fat Sac Bow Bag (425) 

LF 100 Shaper

LF 145 Inline Shaper

May be getting some lead bags as well.

This weekend we went out for our first attempt to surf. We used the Fat Seat at roughly 75% full and 1 Locker bag at 75% full on surf side, 2 adults on back seat above swim deck(Swim deck was ankle deep in water when stopped. We had the LF 100 Shaper set low on the boat near the stern. The wave was surfable, but not a ton of push and the wave wasn't super clean. 

We plan on going back out this week one evening and I wanted to ask what adjustments might work best? 

Things I am considering

2 Surf Gates, the LF100 just behind the tower as low as possible and the LF145 at the back.

Going 100% on the Fat Seat and Both 275 bags on top of it centered.

Should I put anything in the Bow? Its a closed bow, so lead would make most sense I think.

I should also note I do NOT have a wedge.

We had a blast and overall just enjoy being out. I have attached a link to one of her first surfs, It gives an idea of the wave we were working with.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by TEC3

[BlindSquirrel]

@TEC3 Welcome! 2 wake shapers? I recommend you use just one, as far back on the boat as you can with the top just below the water level. (If two were effective, than these new $300k+ boats would have them.) You want the top of the shaper to be at the top of the water level when you're going.  If she wants to surf on the port side, the shaper needs to be on the starboard side. Surf speed should be between 9.5 and 11mph. Make sure you're in 20 feet or more of water, the deeper the better.

Weight in front would give the wave more push, so yeah you can put a bag up there. Just remember though, that boat was not designed to have a ton of weight in it, so be careful not to chili dip yourself and sink. 

[UWSkier]

I hate to be that guy, but you bought the wrong boat, and I'd highly recommend trading it on something more suited to your use case and experience level.  I've been driving tournament inboards for over 20 years and have taken USA Waterski training, and I still have taken on water unexpectedly in the past, running without weight.  You run significant risk of swamping if, like you said, your platform is in ankle deep water.

[REHinH20]

Agree with UWSkier, you should sell yours and buy mine - its listed in Classifieds.   I'm worried about you putting too much weight in your boat, and it ending up underwater!

Edited September 18, 2023 by REHinH20

[jjackkrash]

I disagree with @UWskier.  You bought the right boat.  But you do need to switch sports.  Skiing is where it's at.    You might as well give it a whirl before you do something rash.  

[TEC3]

1 hour ago, UWSkier said:

I hate to be that guy, but you bought the wrong boat, and I'd highly recommend trading it on something more suited to your use case and experience level.  I've been driving tournament inboards for over 20 years and have taken USA Waterski training, and I still have taken on water unexpectedly in the past, running without weight.  You run significant risk of swamping if, like you said, your platform is in ankle deep water.

You’re welcome to that opinion.

we just like being out and it meets our needs in a fun way. 
 

Thanks for posting

[TEC3]

1 hour ago, BlindSquirrel said:

@TEC3 Welcome! 2 wake shapers? I recommend you use just one, as far back on the boat as you can with the top just below the water level. (If two were effective, than these new $300k+ boats would have them.) You want the top of the shaper to be at the top of the water level when you're going.  If she wants to surf on the port side, the shaper needs to be on the starboard side. Surf speed should be between 9.5 and 11mph. Make sure you're in 20 feet or more of water, the deeper the better.

Weight in front would give the wave more push, so yeah you can put a bag up there. Just remember though, that boat was not designed to have a ton of weight in it, so be careful not to chili dip yourself and sink. 

I actually have played with 2 on friends boats and it works well with less ballast. Lots of good Info on it that I’ve found. 

not sure what all I will try with it, but I do agree she is heavy and I’m very conscientious about taking on water/ sinking the boat.

I full understand the boat isn’t designed to surf. We just like being out on the water and it’s part of what we do. We bought the boat from the original owner(family friend) with all maintenance records(390hrs) tower, accessories, etc for 9k.  So we will be having fun in this boat for many years before we upgrade to something more expensive 

[smileysteve]

Consider an ocean sized surf board if you want to go ropeless. I also encourage wakefoiling (I do this with a 70' line between a pontoon or io, but also my boat with no ballast or shaper)

From the video, your shapers aren't doing a great job, experiment with more positions. For me, I have to move it forward about a foot and want it to be the top of the underway water line. You should be able to get a clean, but not quite surfable wave without a bunch of weight. (I'm able to with just the mls 500lb). I only use one shaper. It should be on the opposite side of the surfer. You don't want depth as your goal is delay the surface convergence.

You omit your speed setting. Your low speed should be where the wave cleans up, i'd this is early 9s. I surf at 9.8mph and up to 11.3 depending on the size and shape of the wave.

I also like that my boat is paid off, but it's also nice that I have one of the last small vdrives since I like skiing.

Edited September 19, 2023 by smileysteve

[Woodski]

Be careful not to ingest water back up the exhaust in to the combustion chamber.  Raising the water line with more ballast than the placard suggests is the maximum could lead to a hydrolock event.

[TEC3]

11 hours ago, smileysteve said:

Consider an ocean sized surf board if you want to go ropeless. I also encourage wakefoiling (I do this with a 70' line between a pontoon or io, but also my boat with no ballast or shaper)

From the video, your shapers aren't doing a great job, experiment with more positions. For me, I have to move it forward about a foot and want it to be the top of the underway water line. You should be able to get a clean, but not quite surfable wave without a bunch of weight. (I'm able to with just the mls 500lb). I only use one shaper. It should be on the opposite side of the surfer. You don't want depth as your goal is delay the surface convergence.

You omit your speed setting. Your low speed should be where the wave cleans up, i'd this is early 9s. I surf at 9.8mph and up to 11.3 depending on the size and shape of the wave.

I also like that my boat is paid off, but it's also nice that I have one of the last small vdrives since I like skiing.

The video was def not a clean wave. It was just the small LF wakeshaper pro 100 and I agree placement wasn’t the best. 
speeds were 9-11. I believe the video was around 10, but don’t fully remember.

I’ve only played with 2 shapers on a friends boat, not tried on mine. 

i don’t think the solution for me is more weight at this point, but placing the weight more strategically and trying the bigger shaper in a better location.

again, not trying to do more than beginner surf with friends and family… we mainly spend the day pulling kids on tubes and floating around. This little boat is the highlight of our group as everyone else has big pontoons. Surfing is def a minor part of what we do, but we do like to try. 

[Michigan boarder]

I have surfed the crap out of my Echelon, here's my advice:

1. Bow weight is a must, definitely get something up front, at least 400lbs.  I would not do lead, because it is not neutrally bouyant like water if something bad were to happen.  Bow weight will lengthen the pocket and create a better push.
2. That wave is definitely surfable, but she is not steering into the wave.  The board should be pointed more into the wave, which will give her a push away from the wave, and then she's surfing
3. Her toes should be closer to the edge of the board, and not in the middle.  That will help steer the board into the wave.
4. Turn the boat gently, so that you are going in a small arc.  Turn in the direction of the surfer (not away from the surfer).  This helps to shape the wave.
5. Because of the prop rotation, your goofy side wave will be better if anyone wants to ride the other side
6. The pocket is small, you will be 8' to 3' from the platform

You have a LOT of weight in that boat!  I have created a great wave with:

• 750lb sack on the surf side of the engine, running under the rear seat
• 400lb sack in the ski locker
• Person in the bow (mine is open)
• 2 people in the boat on the surf side
• no wedge
• no wake shapers

Funny thing is I've never taken water over the bow while surfing.  I agree with you, it's fun to mess around with.  For example I learned to wakeboard off of a Sea Doo, outboards, I/O's, none of them with towers, etc. and nothing I should have been wakeboarding behind.  But it's a great time screwing around out on the water, congrats on your new boat!

[TEC3]

13 minutes ago, Michigan boarder said:

I have surfed the crap out of my Echelon, here's my advice:

1. Bow weight is a must, definitely get something up front, at least 400lbs.  I would not do lead, because it is not neutrally bouyant like water if something bad were to happen.  Bow weight will lengthen the pocket and create a better push.
2. That wave is definitely surfable, but she is not steering into the wave.  The board should be pointed more into the wave, which will give her a push away from the wave, and then she's surfing
3. Her toes should be closer to the edge of the board, and not in the middle.  That will help steer the board into the wave.
4. Turn the boat gently, so that you are going in a small arc.  Turn in the direction of the surfer (not away from the surfer).  This helps to shape the wave.
5. Because of the prop rotation, your goofy side wave will be better if anyone wants to ride the other side
6. The pocket is small, you will be 8' to 3' from the platform

You have a LOT of weight in that boat!  I have created a great wave with:

• 750lb sack on the surf side of the engine, running under the rear seat
• 400lb sack in the ski locker
• Person in the bow (mine is open)
• 2 people in the boat on the surf side
• no wedge
• no wake shapers

Funny thing is I've never taken water over the bow while surfing.  I agree with you, it's fun to mess around with.  For example I learned to wakeboard off of a Sea Doo, outboards, I/O's, none of them with towers, etc. and nothing I should have been wakeboarding behind.  But it's a great time screwing around out on the water, congrats on your new boat!

Thanks for the info.

1. Good to know, I have a bow bag(All my bags were given to me to setup what I need before I buy) but I would have to climb through the small port to fill and drain due to closed bow. I don't mind to do so, but it is a small pain.

2. That is her 2 day surfing ever and first time with our boat. She is a noob as it comes and I am not much better. In all honesty, she thought that was the best fun she has had surfing. I will pass on the riding feedback for her to try. Next time we go out I am bringing our friends who can actually surf to help teach.

5. I did that some, but I am also newer on what is needed to help the surfer.

As far as weight, I didn't have all those bags filled. Just the fat seat and a small locker bag. Both of which were 70-75%.

I am not super worried about taking water over the bow because I am pretty hyper focused on that concern and I have a closed bow. Really worked on boat control after losing the surfer to not swamp or take on water through my fuel vent.

Thanks for all the feedback, It def helps me moving forward and I will try some of the suggestions.

[CaptainMorgan]

15 minutes ago, Michigan boarder said:

1. That wave is definitely surfable, but she is not steering into the wave.  The board should be pointed more into the wave, which will give her a push away from the wave, and then she's surfing

i agree, its currently surfable for smaller folks with some technique and probably shorter rope (or choke up on rope a little, but as you pull in closer DO NOT WRAP LOOSE END AROUND YOUR HANDS, could make for a bad day if you fall with hands/fingers caught).

you've got a lot of weight in a small boat, be careful.  i concur with wakeshaper placement being key and you'll get a surfable wave...but...

Philosophically - consider aiming 'lower' -- that is, get yourself a small clean wave that you are comfortable driving and stop having riders focus on dropping the rope.  Almost think of it as slow, assisted, doesn't-hurt-when-you-fall, wakeboarding. 

i've taken people out for the first time on my "big" surf wave and they are so intent on throwing the rope that they waste a ton of time/turns/energy/emotion dropping it and falling immediately and getting frustrated - just because they want to say they went ropless.  But after a handful of failures, i convince them to simply hold the rope and never plan on letting go... and voila, not only do they put less pressure on themselves, they have a blast just carving around, up/down the wave, doing little hops and slashes and when they get back in the boat there are just big smiles.  If the wave is gonna be small, is going ropeless in a 2ft pocket going to be more fun? maybe not.  so perhaps for this fall, just start by doing longer, rope assisted sessions where board size and setup and 'pocket/play area' are all more forgiving and enjoy being out there.  When you get more skill and setup experience, then try for ropeless fun.

(note: i love foiling, its awesome and way doable on small waves -- but it takes a lot more coordination and its expensive equipment to get started.  until you are surfing confidently/consistently, i'd stay away from foiling as learning curve can be tricky and end up with some dicey moments of sharp carbon fiber coming at your face)

[justgary]

5 minutes ago, TEC3 said:

I am not super worried about taking water over the bow because I am pretty hyper focused on that concern and I have a closed bow.

Be super worried, especially if you have other boats making waves near you.  You can take an astonishing amount of water over the bow and windshield if you let it dip.  Even though you are vigilant, at some point you will be behind the boat and your driver may not know to have the same vigilance.

I certainly understand the excitement of learning new skills on the water.  When we were kids we towed each other on every conceivable item that we could behind a 6 HP motor, then behind a 20 HP as we got older.  We basically recreated every event in the local ski show except for jumping (they blocked the ramp) and kite skiing (no kite).

If you want to have some real fun, buy or borrow a boom and a pair of skis and learn to ski.  You can generally learn in three pulls with the right instruction, but a boom makes it even easier.  The boom is also useful for other instruction, such as barefooting....

[Michigan boarder]

11 minutes ago, justgary said:

Even though you are vigilant, at some point you will be behind the boat and your driver may not know to have the same vigilance.

This is GREAT advice!!  I thought I communicated everything to everyone in my family about the boat, but I did not and then my wife and son overheated the engine (for example).  Cover every detail.

 

 

 

 

 

[TEC3]

12 minutes ago, justgary said:

Be super worried, especially if you have other boats making waves near you.  You can take an astonishing amount of water over the bow and windshield if you let it dip.  Even though you are vigilant, at some point you will be behind the boat and your driver may not know to have the same vigilance.

I certainly understand the excitement of learning new skills on the water.  When we were kids we towed each other on every conceivable item that we could behind a 6 HP motor, then behind a 20 HP as we got older.  We basically recreated every event in the local ski show except for jumping (they blocked the ramp) and kite skiing (no kite).

If you want to have some real fun, buy or borrow a boom and a pair of skis and learn to ski.  You can generally learn in three pulls with the right instruction, but a boom makes it even easier.  The boom is also useful for other instruction, such as barefooting....

Def did not mean that I was complacent or not concerned. The wife and I spent 1/4 the day with no rider, but weight in the boat moving around at slow speeds and working on control and maneuvering so we could practice how the boat handles with weight and if we needed to make fast movements how it would handle. When we go out again we will do the same and continue to do so into next season to practice those skills. It may seem silly to some, but I want to be able to feel comfortable having her drive or myself. 

It is all new to us so we have been trying different stuff. The boat came with a set of Obrien Vantage 172 ski's. They aren't in the best shape, but we talked about testing those out as well. We know no one who Ski's so we would be self teaching.

[TEC3]

2 minutes ago, Michigan boarder said:

This is GREAT advice!!  I thought I communicated everything to everyone in my family about the boat, but I did not and then my wife and son overheated the engine (for example).  Cover every detail.

 

 

 

 

 

Overheating is my number one concern at the moment. Maybe its paranoia from owning a land cruiser for years and having to do head gaskets, but I plan on swapping the 160 T-stat for a 140 over the winter along with a bunch of other hoses and work.

Right now I see it basically hover around 160 at slow and fast speeds, it moves up and down appropriately when the T-stat opens.

[Michigan boarder]

14 minutes ago, justgary said:

If you want to have some real fun, buy or borrow a boom and a pair of skis and learn to ski.  You can generally learn in three pulls with the right instruction, but a boom makes it even easier.  The boom is also useful for other instruction, such as barefooting....

This is even better advice.  I taught a family of 5 (dad, 4 kids, mom stayed on shore...all the kids were in their 20s/30s) how to ski and wakeboard two weeks ago off of our boom.  2 of them ended up long line, the other 3 ran out of grip strength but still had a blast on the boom.  There is more thrill and bigger smiles from that than surfing a small wave.  I've probably taught 100 people how to do stuff with the boom.  Just another great thing that these boats are built to do.  I bought my boom (used) immediately after I bought my boat, before I even put it in the water.

Barefooting comes with some risk, but once you figure it out it is the best thrill behind the boat by a mile!

[Michigan boarder]

3 minutes ago, TEC3 said:

Overheating is my number one concern at the moment. Maybe its paranoia from owning a land cruiser for years and having to do head gaskets, but I plan on swapping the 160 T-stat for a 140 over the winter along with a bunch of other hoses and work.

Right now I see it basically hover around 160 at slow and fast speeds, it moves up and down appropriately when the T-stat opens.

If you haven't replaced the impeller or know when it was done, you should do it asap.  I do mine every 2 years, some guys do it every year.  Inspect the transmission cooler for blockage, it has a screen where little bits can accumulate.  I wouldn't worry about the Tstat, 160 is fine.

[TEC3]

1 minute ago, Michigan boarder said:

If you haven't replaced the impeller or know when it was done, you should do it asap.  I do mine every 2 years, some guys do it every year.  Inspect the transmission cooler for blockage, it has a screen where little bits can accumulate.  I wouldn't worry about the Tstat, 160 is fine.

Impeller was done in May, but I plan on replacing this winter. Thanks for the info on the Trans cooler. I will add that to my list. We have had the boat for around a month and we've had it out most weekends. First weekend we were floating and taking the kids out on a tube. 

 

[TEC3]

3 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

i agree, its currently surfable for smaller folks with some technique and probably shorter rope (or choke up on rope a little, but as you pull in closer DO NOT WRAP LOOSE END AROUND YOUR HANDS, could make for a bad day if you fall with hands/fingers caught).

you've got a lot of weight in a small boat, be careful.  i concur with wakeshaper placement being key and you'll get a surfable wave...but...

Philosophically - consider aiming 'lower' -- that is, get yourself a small clean wave that you are comfortable driving and stop having riders focus on dropping the rope.  Almost think of it as slow, assisted, doesn't-hurt-when-you-fall, wakeboarding. 

i've taken people out for the first time on my "big" surf wave and they are so intent on throwing the rope that they waste a ton of time/turns/energy/emotion dropping it and falling immediately and getting frustrated - just because they want to say they went ropless.  But after a handful of failures, i convince them to simply hold the rope and never plan on letting go... and voila, not only do they put less pressure on themselves, they have a blast just carving around, up/down the wave, doing little hops and slashes and when they get back in the boat there are just big smiles.  If the wave is gonna be small, is going ropeless in a 2ft pocket going to be more fun? maybe not.  so perhaps for this fall, just start by doing longer, rope assisted sessions where board size and setup and 'pocket/play area' are all more forgiving and enjoy being out there.  When you get more skill and setup experience, then try for ropeless fun.

(note: i love foiling, its awesome and way doable on small waves -- but it takes a lot more coordination and its expensive equipment to get started.  until you are surfing confidently/consistently, i'd stay away from foiling as learning curve can be tricky and end up with some dicey moments of sharp carbon fiber coming at your face)

I do really like this mentality. We are having fun with being on rope and just getting on the water. We are kinda following your suggestions in a lot of ways. We figure at some point some skills will click and we can then move forward. We do have friends who surf a good bit and they have been very helpful with showing us stuff. 

[UWSkier]

4 hours ago, TEC3 said:

Overheating is my number one concern at the moment. Maybe its paranoia from owning a land cruiser for years and having to do head gaskets, but I plan on swapping the 160 T-stat for a 140 over the winter along with a bunch of other hoses and work.

Right now I see it basically hover around 160 at slow and fast speeds, it moves up and down appropriately when the T-stat opens.

I wouldn't bother.  The ECU mapping will run the engine more rich if it's running at a lower temperature than 160.  You can load these things to the hilt and never overheat as long as your impeller is good and there are no obstructions.  It might be a good idea to put in a fresh thermostat, but I'd stick with the marine 160F unit.

Keep an eye on your RPM when you're out surfing too.  These boats are propped for no weight and slalom speeds.  You should be running, unloaded, roughly 3000 RPM at 30 MPH.  But if you're surfing and down around 2100 RPM or so, you're lugging the motor, which they don't like, longevity-wise.  You might want to prop down a bit if you're going to run heavy a lot.

[TEC3]

36 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

I wouldn't bother.  The ECU mapping will run the engine more rich if it's running at a lower temperature than 160.  You can load these things to the hilt and never overheat as long as your impeller is good and there are no obstructions.  It might be a good idea to put in a fresh thermostat, but I'd stick with the marine 160F unit.

Keep an eye on your RPM when you're out surfing too.  These boats are propped for no weight and slalom speeds.  You should be running, unloaded, roughly 3000 RPM at 30 MPH.  But if you're surfing and down around 2100 RPM or so, you're lugging the motor, which they don't like, longevity-wise.  You might want to prop down a bit if you're going to run heavy a lot.

Good to know on the T-Stat. I'll plan on ordering a Marine 160F with my other parts. It seems that there are lots of parts options, where do you suggest for quality parts?

Thanks for the info on the RPM's. I haven't looked at Props yet, but figured I would this winter. I have a CVP 13x13 and have read that they can sometimes throw a blade. So I was going to look at an ACME 525 Prop. Still new with this so any info on what prop may help with this would be great. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by TEC3

[UWSkier]

3 minutes ago, TEC3 said:

Good to know on the T-Stat. I plan on ordering a Marine 160F with my other parts. It seems that their are lots of parts options, where do you suggest for quality parts?

Thanks for the info on the RPM's. I haven't looked at Props yet, but figured I would this winter. I have a CVP 13x13 and have read that they can sometimes throw a blade. So I was going to look at an ACME 525 Prop. Still new with this so any info on what prop may help with this would be great. 

Well, the CVP is original and if it hasn't thrown a blade in the last 25 years, it may not now, though with the loads you're putting on it, I'd still look to replace.

Keep tabs on your surf RPM next time you're out, then give Acme a call.  They're really helpful.  I imagine you'll end up with a 653 or 1231, but maybe not.  

[TEC3]

5 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

Well, the CVP is original and if it hasn't thrown a blade in the last 25 years, it may not now, though with the loads you're putting on it, I'd still look to replace.

Keep tabs on your surf RPM next time you're out, then give Acme a call.  They're really helpful.  I imagine you'll end up with a 653 or 1231, but maybe not.  

Will do! super helpful, thank you!