Bad ground? Battery? Alt?

[Ryan1776]

I'm not entirely sure it belongs in this sub-forum but here goes. 
I figured I'd get a lot of the electrical gurus in there. ;-)

First off. 
3 amps. 1-Rockford in-boat powering 8 Polks. 1-Rockford powering tower 4-Wetsounds 6x9.  1-Polk powering the sub. Wetsounds 10"
Wetsounds MC1
2 Batts.
All are powered by two distribution blocks. One for power, one for ground.
Daisy chained the remote on wire. 
Stock, possibly original Alt @822 hours.

FOR THE RECORD-the voltage on the MC1 head unit is damn near always 1v-1.5v LESS than what the boat is showing me. 

This issue has been lingering, and intermittent but has become progressively worse. Which with any electrical gremlin is commonplace for me; ignore it until it can't be. :D
There are some new oddities that make me unsure of the culprit. 

I'll start with over the past couple of years, there are times when the ALT doesn't seem to run at a charging voltage, as per the dash readout.... 11.9-12.0-11.8. But after some time it will reach 12.8 or so. But it averages probably around 12.6. That said there is no "defining" moment to when it starts charging. RPM sometimes does it, and sometimes doesn't. Although I've seen 13.2 but doesn't seem to maintain that output. 

Some points of interest. 
Last year at any point in time when we were listening to music at the sandbar eventually the sub would start to "thump thump thump thump" at regular intervals outside of the music playing. If you muted it, it would continue. 
But if I switched from dual battery to one, it would stop that "thump thump" and play correctly. 
I didn't understand why removing, what seemed to me, 50% of the available power would correct the issue, but it would. 
I was told that whatever battery I "removed" from the system might have a bad cell, so it was pulling from the good battery and not powering the sub correctly. 
That makes sense.

Switching back to both batts-I restarted the boat, (it's never had an issue starting)......and once the voltage came back up the thump thump would go away.

Start of this season and the inboat speakers would have an AWFUL crackle over the music. It got to the point that that is all they would do, no music just crackle. Regardless of volume, even muted. 
I removed the power wire, crackle stopped.
Figured, well it has to be power/ground wire. Indeed both cables were CRAP. I had extra cable from installing the sub amp. Swapped that and the problem immediately went away. What's weird is the next day, it came back. I disconnected that amp again and just ran the towers for the day. 
The NEXT day I went to troubleshoot more, connected the amp back up to power, and haven't had an issue since. 

Last Thursday. 
We went out, immediate thump thump thump, even with +12.4v on the dash. 
Rear ballast showed 25% each. Which I knew wasn't right because I never leave water in there, it's on a hoist and we haven't done any watersports in a month. (different issue haha)

Yesterday went out. Immediately after starting the boat, all tanks showed 100%, and fuel went to near 0. 
We idled around, voltage never got above 11.8 no matter what. 
I switched to ONE batt, MC1 turned off, fuel came back, ballast eventually went to 0%, dash showed 13.2v. 
Back to 2 batts, we now have full ballast, no fuel and 11.8v. HAHAHA. 
I tried again and while the system acted somewhat similar, I never got back to 13.2. Maybe high 12's. 

Interestingly enough, turning off the entire sound system via the MC1 power button brought the voltage back up as well, with both batts.
But not every time. 

My takeaways. 
The fact the alt came right up to 13.2 (at least 2x) and all the ballast/fuel display issues could be "controlled" by the dual batt switch, leads me to believe it's a bad batt with a bad cell that is drawing a SH*T ton of power and the old 70 stock-o alt can't help it. (BUT it also turned off the radio. See the last point about powering off the MC1)

The fact my in boat amp power wire was crap tells me maybe it's time to re-do the main power/ground from the batts to the audio distribution block. 

Maybe 2 issues. 
Maybe 3? Batt, power/ground and alt. 

"discuss" 

~Ryan 
EDIT: Just went back and looked at a video I took, driving back home last night, if I remember correctly both batts ON, 13.2v, 50% all ballast (erroneous) low fuel (erroneous), and the radio ON.
 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Ryan1776

[asnowman]

certainly sounds like its time for a new battery, that is where i would start.  Take those 2 out, go get them tested, and likely replaced.  

Then get more aggressive after the simplest thing is done.

You could have a bad ground connection, but it sounds like it could also be a bad terminal in your battery switch, so that would be my second thing to look at, after batteries.

 

[Ryan1776]

31 minutes ago, asnowman said:

certainly sounds like its time for a new battery, that is where i would start.  Take those 2 out, go get them tested, and likely replaced.  

Then get more aggressive after the simplest thing is done.

You could have a bad ground connection, but it sounds like it could also be a bad terminal in your battery switch, so that would be my second thing to look at, after batteries.

 

Fair enough. That was my thinking as well. 
I sorta suspected the batt switch too, but wasn't too convinced as reducing it to 1 makes it "better". 

 

EDIT BTW-I think we've chatted about this before, but one of my best friends and college roommate lives in Buxton ME. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Ryan1776

[JasonK]

If I were you I would charge and test the batteries, and then disconnect the sound system for a while, for troubleshooting. See if the gauges stop malfunctioning.

[Ryan1776]

1 minute ago, JasonK said:

If I were you I would charge and test the batteries, and then disconnect the sound system for a while, for troubleshooting. See if the gauges stop malfunctioning.

Not a bad thought either. 

[asnowman]

3 hours ago, Ryan1776 said:

EDIT BTW-I think we've chatted about this before, but one of my best friends and college roommate lives in Buxton ME. 

Yeah, you mentioned that back when you were looking at an underwater light for the drain plug space. You haven't introduced us yet though 

[MLA]

Rule #1 When dealing with electrical/voltage issues DO NOT use any onboard volt meters for a reference. They are to be suspected as giving you false info. You need a hand held diagnostic volt meter. 

Step 1 You need to make sure the batteries can reach a full charge and you are launching the boat with the batteries at full capacity. Next, with engine running, you need to measure voltage right at the alternator and engine block. 13+ idle 14+ 1000 rpm are good numbers. If voltage is good, then move on to all the main voltage supply terminations; back of switch, batteries, helm breaker, helm BUS and amps. Looking for a significant voltage drop. .5V is a lot. If all the main distributions have good voltage, which includes their grounds as well, then you start looking at individual circuits. Media unit displays low voltage? Whats the voltage supply at the fuse holder? Dash shows low voltage? whats the voltage at the back of the gauge (analog) or harness for MFD. 

[Ryan1776]

12 minutes ago, MLA said:

Rule #1 When dealing with electrical/voltage issues DO NOT use any onboard volt meters for a reference. They are to be suspected as giving you false info. You need a hand held diagnostic volt meter. 

 

I 100% agree. I have a variety of Fluke Meters. 

12 minutes ago, MLA said:

Step 1 You need to make sure the batteries can reach a full charge and you are launching the boat with the batteries at full capacity. Next, with engine running, you need to measure voltage right at the alternator and engine block. 13+ idle 14+ 1000 rpm are good numbers.

Have not done this. But you're correct on all accounts. 

12 minutes ago, MLA said:

Looking for a significant voltage drop. .5V is a lot.

I've got to believe that there's more than 0.5v loss from the alt to the battery... Quick-ish math and lots of assumptions 2awg, 20' with standard copper resistivity, 12v system at 70 amps (max alt) show me 0.436v drop, in a perfect world. :D 
Certainly not arguing your systematic approach, I'm just saying the fact it even exists, probably means it's over 0.5v drop. Let alone 13yrs of degradation. 

In the end, you're 100% right. Time to start fine tooth-combing this thing. 
If only I had spare time with a 5yr old and 1.5-year-old. 

13 minutes ago, MLA said:

You need to make sure the batteries can reach a full charge

My buddy has some fancy wiz-bang 900$ battery charger, restorer for drag racing. 
Maybe I can borrow it for a few days and put the boat batts on it. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Ryan1776

[Ryan1776]

Alright. 
Found out something interesting last night. 
I pulled the batts out. 
First, I turned on the interior boat lights. 
Clicked the batt selector to 1.  I wanted to confirm which batt was indeed being used as the "single". 
The switch I have is OFF at 12 o'clock, 1 at 3 o'clock. Combine at 4 o'clock. There is no provision to select each battery individually. 
Maybe something I should change? 

Some identification. 
Most of you know, 2010 LSV batts are under the glove box in the hatch area. 
Parallel to each longer, tangent to the beam of the boat.
Negative posts align on the port side, and positive align on the starboard. The forwardmost battery (closest to the bow) has all the main boat hookups to the post of the battery. With those clamshell-style battery clamps. 
The rearmost battery is connected in parallel to the ground on the front battery via the threaded post to the clamshell-style battery clamp on the forward battery. 
The positive cable is connected through the battery switch. 

Alright.
The interior boat lights are on. 
Switch selected to "one" 
I remove the positive cable on the rearmost battery, interior lights turn off!
SOO that means, when the selector is on batt one, the main harness to the boat, is not getting direct power, it has to be back feeding somewhere. 

Step one, correct the one batt to combine issues. Should be pretty easy. I assume just move the cables behind the switch itself. 

Second. Fluke meter on each batt once disconnected from the boat. 
BOTH batts metered at 12.6. Not terribly surprising as they were tied together, they should find equilibrium. 
Put them both on the bench. And let them sit a couple of hours. 
Checked again, both at 12.6. 

OK tied them together, set the charger (large roll-around die-hard 2-20-60amp) to 20amps (for both), and within 5min, the charger showed 15v. 
OK, backed it off to 2amps and left it overnight. 12.8v when I walked away. 
This morning, 13.2v. 
Removed the batts from the charger, and I'll have them load-tested today. 

That all said, I'm guessing the batts are OK, and one issue was identified with the batt selector. 
I'm not totally sure how much of a detriment it is when the selector is on both, which is where I run 99.8% of the time. 
But I wouldn't think it would be unless the switch is wearing out. 
Again, 13 years old. It could be. 

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Ryan1776

[shawndoggy]

4 hours ago, Ryan1776 said:

Alright. 
Found out something interesting last night. 
I pulled the batts out. 
First, I turned on the interior boat lights. 
Clicked the batt selector to 1.  I wanted to confirm which batt was indeed being used as the "single". 
The switch I have is OFF at 12 o'clock, 1 at 3 o'clock. Combine at 4 o'clock. There is no provision to select each battery individually. 
Maybe something I should change? 

Switch like this?

Sounds like you should have an ACR in the mix somewhere too then?

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7650/Add-A-Battery_Kit_-_120A

[Ryan1776]

@shawndoggy Exactly that switch. 
OH, that's interesting....I don't think that there is, but that said, I do not know. 
I do know there's a lever breaker upstream from the switch.
I do not believe there is an ACR as there is no additional feedback cable from that breaker to the battery separated from the switch. 

Maybe It does say "ON" doesn't it? Not "1" as I thought.
What does that actually mean? Maybe there HAS to be an ACR?

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Ryan1776

[Ryan1776]

Took the batts to a local battery shop. 
Both batts load tested at 830Ah-ish for an 880Ah battery. 

Guy said they were both just fine. 
So I need to figure out if there is indeed an ACR. 

And meter the at the alt output. 
(Just updating for future searches) 

[MLA]

On 8/11/2023 at 7:59 AM, Ryan1776 said:

Found out something interesting last night. 
I pulled the batts out. 
First, I turned on the interior boat lights. 
Clicked the batt selector to 1.  I wanted to confirm which batt was indeed being used as the "single". 
The switch I have is OFF at 12 o'clock, 1 at 3 o'clock. Combine at 4 o'clock. There is no provision to select each battery individually. 
Maybe something I should change? 

This changes things in terms of what might be wrong. I dont think a 2010 would have come with the Dual Circuit Plus switch from the factory. Just note, there is no "Single" or "ONE" battery in use. When the switch is ON, both batteries are connected to their respective loads. 

[Ryan1776]

37 minutes ago, MLA said:

This changes things in terms of what might be wrong. I dont think a 2010 would have come with the Dual Circuit Plus switch from the factory. Just note, there is no "Single" or "ONE" battery in use. When the switch is ON, both batteries are connected to their respective loads. 

OH man, good call/catch. 
You'd think the main boat electronics would be connected to the "main harness" via the clam-shell cabling connector on the forwardmost battery, which is not what I witnessed. 

I guess I'm not really sure what all this means at this point. But clearly, it's not correct. 

[MLA]

2 hours ago, Ryan1776 said:

You'd think the main boat electronics would be connected to the "main harness" via the clam-shell cabling connector on the forwardmost battery

Actually, NOTHING but the auto bilge wire should be connected direct to battery voltage. Every thing should be connected to one of the two switch output posts. Starter, helm BUS and audio. Which output post? If there is cranking battery and a deep-cycle, then pair the cranking battery and main starter cable to the two #1 posts and everything else and the deep-cycle battery on the two #2 posts. 

 

Now, for this switch to work as intended, there needs to be an auto combining replay to pass charge from bank 1 to bank 2 when the engine is running. So your system mag be wired wrong, lacking and ACR or have a nonfunctioning ACR, providing the alternator delivers sufficient charge and there are no bad cable connections. 

[Ryan1776]

On 8/14/2023 at 12:31 PM, MLA said:

Now, for this switch to work as intended, there needs to be an auto combining replay to pass charge from bank 1 to bank 2 when the engine is running.

I agree, but I couldn't find one. At least nowhere it made sense. Meaning, nowhere visible and easily serviced. 

I went to the mega manual library link. 
Found this LINK TO SWITCH

There is no callout for the ACR anywhere.
I do understand that this is a generic install how-to. 


 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Ryan1776

[shawndoggy]

3 minutes ago, Ryan1776 said:

I agree, but I couldn't find one. At least nowhere it made sense. Meaning, nowhere visible and easily serviced. 

I went to the mega manual library link. 
Found this LINK TO SWITCH

There is no callout for the ACR anywhere.

 

It certainly CAN be used that way, but it's kinda backwards from how most people would want to use it an also counterintuitive to the yellow caution label on the switch.  Wired as in the diagram you linked, in the "on" position, only one battery would ever receive a charge from the alternator.  You must go to combine for the non-alternator-attached battery to see a charge.  That's "weird" IMHO, and something you'd generally want to caution against (exception being folks with GIANT stereo battery banks who rely on shore charging rather than the alternator on their stereo bank).

If it were my boat, I'd label all the wires going to the switch, then do a proper ACR install / rewire.

[MLA]

Like Shawn said, it "can" work without the ACR, but it becomes a clumsy manual switch. Launch both = switch in COMBINE. Drop anchor = switch back to ON. The ACR gives you that passive operation with only the need to touch turn the switch to ON when you launch and OFF when you are done for the day. 

[Ryan1776]

@shawndoggy @MLA

Thanks to you both. I certainly agree with both of you, but aside from the lever action breaker downstream of the switch, I don't see any ACR anywhere. 
Either of you know where it would have been mounted if OEM? 
Because I don't see any documentation for that. 

[MLA]

1 minute ago, Ryan1776 said:

would have been mounted if OEM

I am 99% sure this was not an OEM option 2010, but I could be incorrect. Either way, it cant be far from the switch it batteries. The ACR needs 2 positive cables to it that will come off either the + battery posts of the posts on the back of the switch. Follow every power cable.  

[Ryan1776]

To everyone following this thread. I made some headway on Saturday. 

First off, found in the manual that this switch is indeed a factory option. 

"Option #3, Dual Circuit Plus Battery Switch with VSR: The Power of three switches in one! • Simple On/Off switching • Normal “ON” position isolates the starting and house circuits to reduce the chance of fully discharging both batteries and protect on board electronics from engine starting voltage sages and spikes. The “Combine Batteries” Position parallels the two battery banks in the event of a low starting battery."

A couple of interesting points, and refreshers. 
At one point when all this started, switch to "ON" the starter would only turn the motor 2 revs before stopping. Turning the batt switch to combine would run it OK. 

So as previously mentioned, I charged the batts and had them load testing. 
All OK. 
That means either the cabling is bad, the connection at the starter is bad, or the switch is bad. 

First up, I bypassed the switch altogether, I just put the input (read battery cable) to the output (read starter cable) together. 
Then I took the house batt input and put it direct to the house output. 
Cranked just fine. So that right there tells me the switch cannot pass the amount of current anymore in "ON". 

I took the switch completely out and ran all my cables right to the battery for the weekend. Just to watch things. 

One thing I did notice, the audio is connected to the starting battery. lol doh. I'll rectify that easily but swapping the output cables on the new switch when I install it. 

With the boat running, the dash shows 11.3 volts still. 
Remember, no switch, no parallel of the batteries. 
I did this on purpose. I drove around for a bit, and never ever had any voltage increase. 
Metered the STARTING battery and it showed 14.2 volts.  Glorious, alternator works. 
Connected the house batt in parallel to the starting batt, 12.3 at the dash. 
One thing I did not check, was the voltage at the batt after connecting them both together. 

One point of interest, that may or may not be helpful.
According to @shawndoggy photo, there would be two distinct wires from the output side of the switch on the starter side and 3 on the house side. I only have one per side. 
Certainly could be coupled elsewhere, but I did want to make that point.
That said, the ACR LINK shows one connection per post. 

This tells me one of two things has to be true. 
1-The VSR (as it's called in the manual, ACR during this discussion) is faulty. 
OR
2-The VSR does not exist at all. 

Which brings me to this. 
Where the hell would this be mounted if I had it, because it was a factory option, I'm inclined to believe it does have it. 
I cannot find any indication that there is a VSR/ACR whatsoever. 
I would expect it to be right at the battery site. There's nothing on that "wall" besides the switch and the 80amp breaker. 
This should be in a serviceable area, close to the batteries. 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Ryan1776

[shawndoggy]

Acr wired by the factory would likely be inline between the switch and the batteries. Wired "my way" it would at the very least be wired to the switch.
 

the diagram I posted above is more appropriate / specific to Malibu/axis boats than the very generic Blue Sea diagram. The only thing that should be directly connected to a B+ battery post is your onboard battery charger (if so equipped) and your bilge pumps. 
 

sounds like someone pulled the ACR for one reason or another before your ownership?  Either way, just buy the ACR and wire it like my post from Friday and you should be good to go. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by shawndoggy

[MLA]

8 hours ago, Ryan1776 said:

, there would be two distinct wires from the output side of the switch on the starter side and 3 on the house side

Ignore the number of cables in the illustration and focus on what cables you have and where they should be connected. 

[Zippymbr]

One thing to consider is water in the engine compartment.  I had the same thing happen once and it was due to having water touching the alternator when my bilge died.