"Making" oil

[amartin]

2013 6.0L engine with 454 hours - 370 of them in the last 5 years.  Pretty good mix of usage on the boat - plenty of surfing, but also plenty of low load / higher RPM operation.  I do regular fluid changes (50 hours on oil) but haven't had to do much else to this boat.  For the past several oil changes, I have always thought that it was odd that when I checked the oil before changing that it seemed high, but not too terrible.  Fast forward to last weekend - about 30 hours since last oil change.  Noticed that my "hot" oil pressures seemed a bit low.  I was seeing 24 psi at idle and as low as 37 when pulling a surfer under load.  I usually run about 50 psi under load and as low as 27 or so at idle.  These are usually "low" numbers just before an oil change.  Checked oil and it seemed WAY high on the dipstick.  Changed the oil tonight an pulled out almost 10 quarts of "Oil", but my guess is that it is an oil / fuel mixture.  Only took about 6 qts (as usual) to re-fill the engine. No noticeable performance issues, although if this has been happening over time, maybe it has just been too subtle to notice?  No codes or problems with operation of the boat.

My google-fu tells me that this is likely one of 2 things:  blow by on the pistons or a stuck injector(s).  Boat is on a lift and I would prefer to not pull it if I can avoid it.  A couple of questions:

• Obviously this needs to be addressed, but how critical is this.  With fresh oil in it and I in danger of causing any significant (more) damage by running it?
• What are my best diagnostic steps?  Pull plugs to see how they look (they haven't been changed to my knowledge)  At the lake, I have basic hand tools.
• Any other simple troubleshooting ideas?  I ordered a Blackstone Oil analysis kit (don't have it yet), but any reason to do so at this point?

 

99.9% sure that this is fuel in the oil, not water...

Appreciate the input from the crew.

[justgary]

Do a compression/leakdown test.

Might as well test the fuel pressure also to make sure that isn't it.

[MalibuNation]

Just another idea have the oil checked.  Here is a very popular company that test oil:

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

[amartin]

1 hour ago, MalibuNation said:

Just another idea have the oil checked.  Here is a very popular company that test oil:

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

Ordered the kit and am waiting for the sample bottle to arrive.  With such a heavy dilution I am. To sure how valuable the results will be though. 

[oldjeep]

How critical - very.  I personally would not be using the boat until you figure out the problem.

[electricjohn]

Keep the oil in a sealed container till you mail it in. They prefer the oil sent right after you drain it so fuel or water don't evaporate out.

[PopsA22]

If it in fact has fuel mixed in the oil you will definitely smell the fuel.  I wouldn't run it until you get it resolved.  

[amartin]

7 minutes ago, electricjohn said:

Keep the oil in a sealed container till you mail it in. They prefer the oil sent right after you drain it so fuel or water don't evaporate out.

As I sit here this morning I realize that that ship may have sailed.  In measuring what I got out of the engine, I dumped it into my 16 qt tank for used oil.  The tank had about 4 quarts of used oil from a jet ski, so any result is going to be pretty useless I would assume.

[amartin]

Compression results seem okay to me.  All between 150 and about 160 psi. Plugs definitely have some wear on them - they were due for a change.  With new plugs, the boat sounds alot better.  Maybe the slow decline in performance was not noticed by me?  Couldn't change the wires as I am not sure that I can find drop in replacements - how critical are the metal shields on the outside of the plug end?  I am assuming that it has something to do with grounding / shielding?  Pictures below are labeled A-H, with A being the bow & port most plug in my v-drive.  H, the stern most starboard side plug definitely looked the worst.

Could plugs in this condition be contributing to this issue?  Possibly against the advice of counsel, I think that my best bet is to run it a bit and watch the oil level closely?  Am I crazy?  Soonest I can get to the dealer is 2 weeks, so I have some time to fiddle with it.

[redrooster]

Those plugs are toast.  If things are running clean they should be a grey color.  You have some blow by. 

[PopsA22]

25 minutes ago, redrooster said:

Those plugs are toast.  If things are running clean they should be a grey color.  You have some blow by. 

Totally disagree.  One plug is concerning, excessive carbon build-up but the other 7 look decent.  This is not related to the high oil lever reading.  You got bigger problems.  I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good idea to change out your plugs since half the job is already completed.  Definitely do that because it sounds like you're overdue anyway.  

[redrooster]

4 minutes ago, PopsA22 said:

Totally disagree.  One plug is concerning, excessive carbon build-up but the other 7 look decent.  This is not related to the high oil lever reading.  You got bigger problems.  I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good idea to change out your plugs since half the job is already completed.  Definitely do that because it sounds like you're overdue anyway.  

Plug "d" is the only normal looking plug.   

[amartin]

Those plugs have 450 hours on them I imagine.  I know for sure that they have 370 on them.  I was definitely overdue.  Talked to the dealer - he said go run it for a while.  Ran of for probably an hour of engine time and all good so far. I will be watching the oil levels and pressures very closely.  

[redrooster]

59 minutes ago, amartin said:

Those plugs have 450 hours on them I imagine.  I know for sure that they have 370 on them.  I was definitely overdue.  Talked to the dealer - he said go run it for a while.  Ran of for probably an hour of engine time and all good so far. I will be watching the oil levels and pressures very closely.  

Exactly.  Those plugs were way over due for replacing. 

[oldjeep]

They all look rich, but h is your biggest issue.

I don't care how many hours are on them, a properly function engine does not turn your plugs black.

Changing plugs is not going to stop the engine from making oil.

I sure as hell wouldn't be running that engine unless I had a replacement sitting in the garage.

Edited July 9, 2023 by oldjeep

[amartin]

6 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

They all look rich, but h is your biggest issue.

I don't care how many hours are on them, a properly function engine does not turn your plugs black.

Changing plugs is not going to stop the engine from making oil.

I sure as hell wouldn't be running that engine unless I had a replacement sitting in the garage.

Agreed that H is the worst.  What is the next suggested step to troubleshoot in you opinion - which I value greatly!

[oldjeep]

1 minute ago, amartin said:

Agreed that H is the worst.  What is the next suggested step to troubleshoot in you opinion - which I value greatly!

Figure out why your engine is puking fuel.  Start with the injector on h which seems to be leaking.  Best bet would be to pull all 8 and have them reconditioned/blueprinted.

[Surf4FamFun]

2 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

Figure out why your engine is puking fuel.  Start with the injector on h which seems to be leaking.  Best bet would be to pull all 8 and have them reconditioned/blueprinted.

I wrote this nice detailed thought out post that got to, "H seems to be where the problem is".  Then old jeep hops in with three sentences and covers it all.  Man of clear thoughts.  

Would agree with the others  that this really needs to be fixed before you put hours on the motor.  With that much extra gas things are not getting lubricated, you will have extra wear for sure.  If that much it getting by the rings in "H" the fact that it has good compression now may be a gift that will not last long.

 

 

[agetech30]

In the last picture plug A looks like it is missing the center electrode, optical illusion?

[csleaver]

Check your fuel pressure.  See if it is within specification and if there is a noticeable drop at key off.  A shutoff valve can be used to determine if a pressure drop is caused by leaking injectors.

[Bluefishcay]

Not sure on your specific engine setup, but ran into a 454 that had a vsd tank for the high pressure pump.  It failed and would send lots of extra fuel back into the intake.   Since that was plumbed to intake runner #8 that cylinder was getting raw gas and not running.  

[MalibuNation]

Any updates?  Thx

[amartin]

No updates.  Out of town for a bit but will plan on testing the fuel pressure when I get back to the boat.  

[amartin]

Quick question:  I ordered new plug wires and received them from Bakes yesterday.  On the website, the show this (which matches what I currently have on my boat.:

However, I received a set of plug wires without the metal shielding. 

I questioned them on this and their response was:  The reason they do not come with the metal shields is because of a fire hazard. You can install them as is. I apologize the photo is not up to date.

My belief was that the metal sleeves are there due to the proximity of the wires to the tubed header and that the spring was to ensure that the sleeve stayed grounded.  Any thoughts on this crew?  Am I good using the unshielded wires?

 

[amartin]

Another quick question before I go test fuel pressure this weekend (which I have never done before...)  I was expecting a Schrader valve on the fuel rail, but the "stock" fuel rail for this engine doesn't show one.

Any insight on where it would be?  2013 6.0L Indmar engine.  Here is an old overhead view that I have on my phone.