Foiling vs Surfing -- Pros & Cons

[CaptainMorgan]

figured i'd start an offshoot from the @shawndoggy thread about foiling tips, specifically pulling at the question @hunter77ah asked regarding whether foiling would get boring after a while...its one i've asked myself lately as ive been foiling a lot and trying to identify if its the newness/challenge i enjoy or the actual activity.

So I wanted to document my thoughts after a few years trying each (mostly surfing to start, lately mostly foiling).  Everyone can weight each bullet as they choose, just capturing the topics that come to mind after getting to at least an 'intermediate' level on both.

Caveat #1:  comments are from perspective of a recreational enthusiast; i'm sure professionals can argue many nuances below but i'm just a dad in his 40's trying to have fun with kids, friends, relatives.
Caveat #2:  i've only ridden behind a couple surf boats and on a handful of boards/foils, so trying to keep my comments generic for those considering/comparing the 2 activities

Surfing PROs:
- easy to get folks started, less dramatic falling / low probability of injury
- can feel very ocean-surfy or skate-board-y (technical terms)
- close to boat makes it very social with observers
- lots of small progression steps to be had short of expert riding (heel vs toe side, bigger bottom turns and/or airs, various spins, revert, side-to-side transfers, etc)
- kids/grandparents can kneel or lay down boogie-board style to still participate without actually having skills
- few equipment decisions required to have moderate success - pick surf vs skim style and right size and you'll successfully surf for a while (yes fins can matter, but they are 50x cheaper than a foil wing)

Surfing CONs:
- need to displace lots of water, typically on an expensive surf-specific boat that will burn lots of gas
- need deep water (e.g. >10ft at least, 15+ is better)
- need to be hyper-aware of smaller craft nearby that you max wake can endanger
- small pocket/play area (comparatively)
- setup & surf experience can vary widely from boat to boat and day-to-day if you aren't careful

- 1 person at a time can be slow / limiting for big and impatient crews

Foiling PROs:
- can be done behind almost any boat (surf boats are better); minimal ballast necessary, waves are smaller and more forgiving to setup (with significantly lower fuel bill)
- feels kinda floaty, like being on powdery snow; 2nd wave can be super smooth and feel like flying
- huge, forgiving area to play on as you can recover / pump even when off a wave and transfer between waves (i've seen friends ride the 10th wake)
- easy to have 2 or more people riding simultaneously
- being 2nd wave or further back feels solitary / disconnected from boat
- can be done in shallower water (i'd feel comfortable down to maybe 7 ft?)

Foiling CONs:
- expensive hardware ($1500-$3k for complete setup)
- hardware is complicated with way more decisions to be made - board, straps/positions, mast size, mast location, stabilizer type/size, wing size/type - and if its wrong, virtually impossible to succeed/enjoy
- learning curve is harder, with some dangerous moments where you heard flies towards sharp carbon fiber
- once you can ride confidently, next level of moves are a big step up (i.e. beyond cruising/carving, i guess jumps and flips are possible, but WAY harder and more dangerous)
- being 2nd wave or further back feels solitary / disconnected from boat
- foils are very cumbersome to store/maneuver in/out of the boat; awkward shapes with many sharp edges, gonna ding something (or someone) 

 

i'm sure i'm missing something, others can chime in to add/argue based on their experiences.  happy to clarify if anything i wrote is nonsensical -- but maybe this will help folks as they eye those year-end blowout sales (that may or may not exist this year)

[shawndoggy]

Tell us what you really think! ;-)

Foiling con to add: the $2000 foil setup can get grown out of pretty quickly, but a $3500 setup can be unrideable for a newb.  It definitely pays to start with a beginner setup and move up later.

Same is true for surfing (that starting newbs on an advanced board can be a recipe for disaster), but a $400 or less newb surfboard is a smaller investment and also easier to carry on the boat.  Still as folks progress, they need a board that will fit their surfing style and abilities.  So there are quiver investments to be made on the surf side too if you are serious.  Over the years our surf quiver has been thinned to just my advanced boards, my wife's advanced boards, a beat up CWB tsunami, and a victoria captain.  I've got nothing for an advancing 200lb'er.

Me personally -- I'm still finding foiling much more rewarding than surfing.  it's faster and more powerful and the wave is longer.

 

[CaptainMorgan]

13 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Tell us what you really think! ;-)

Foiling con to add: the $2000 foil setup can get grown out of pretty quickly, but a $3500 setup can be unrideable for a newb.  It definitely pays to start with a beginner setup and move up later.

Picking up on this - when you buy a foil, you kind of buy into a brand as the wings and masts dont mix and match across brands. 

In theory that let's you swap wings to get a whole different feel or rider size with your 3k setup...but I also know guys that are brand locked into a setup they dont love but dont want to start all over learning/investing in new setups.

[wilster]

so what brand provides the best foundation to start from so you can move up in a cost effective way?

[shawndoggy]

2 hours ago, wilster said:

so what brand provides the best foundation to start from so you can move up in a cost effective way?

None really. They are different animals.  Sort of like which beach cruiser should I buy to get good enough to ride the Tour de France. 
 

that said… axis is really coming on strong with a full offering of beginner to expert gear. Not sure how compatible the basic beginner stuff is with the advanced equipment though.  

[CaptainMorgan]

I can only relay what my friends have been buying (I just borrow their stuff).

One is primarily boat foiling and started Axis and now went all in on GoFoil. Other is primarily winging with the kite-like thing/boat not required. He started naisch and now is an Armstrong guy - though he has said if he was boat focused and not so invested in Armstrong already, he'd choose GoFoil now.

GoFoil is also super easy to swap wings - single Phillip's screw - makes changing wings between riders super fast.

[hunter77ah]

I like foiling way better than surfing, but I quickly got to the limits of the slingshot. 
 

As mentioned above, foils don’t really swap between brands and I don’t want to drop a few grand on a new setup. Thinking about trying a new wing… 

[Flyingsushi]

We initially enjoyed Wake Surfing but ever since we found Wake Foiling there is completely different world.

Cons on Wake Surfing:

   You are stuck with behind your boat....

 

Pros on Foiling:

 

[mxmark4]

As the season has ended and I look back on it, foiling was the majority of my time behind the boat this year followed by surfing once I got a new board. I kept pushing harder and harder with the foil and feel I reached a good place with my slingshot setup. I dont feel it limited me in my first year and learning to pump and ride second wakes are my goals for next year.  My next move is to try and sell my setup over the winter and I was looking hard at axis. Might now have to backup and look at go foil, lift was my second after trying a couple different foils from them. It an expensive decision for sure, limited folks have them to ride and try out and no one wants to be stuck with some obscure wing they cant use. 

[dshack]

Awesome thread! I transitioned from primarily surfing to foiling this season. I started with a $400 used Slingshot setup with a gamma wing, then upgraded to an infinity 84 wing, then got into eFoiling and started using my Lift wings behind my boat. My next move is to upgrade my Slingshot board to a small pump board. That initial $400 investment that I sold my wife on escalated quickly!

eFoiling was a huge accelerator for my boat foiling skills (especially for a high aspect wing). I have as much fun eFoiling with my folding prop and stealing other boats waves depowered as I do foiling behind my own boat. There's just something fun about hunting for waves all over the lake (they key is finding a good wakesurfer to follow so they arent constantly turning around).

 

In addition to what's been said, here are some other misc thoughts:

-Foiling just feels cool and different

-The driver matters more for foiling (smooth throttle for getting up)

-You can foil without a wakeshaper (but it does help). This lets you transfer w/o an integrated surf system (good luck doing that surfing!)

-Harder to manage rope for foiling transfers (2nd wave) vs surf transfers since it can't be tossed into boat by rider

-Foiling is more sensitive to turbulence under water whereas surfing is more sensitive to chop

[dalt1]

Since it says Foiling vs Surf, I will jump in with my 2 Cents. I have been foiling many years before you all even seen the foiling boards you are all talking about. The sit down foil is much more bang for the ones saying surfing got boring. Also get more adrenalin bang from sit down than stand up. I agree that the wrecks can be harder but you will never get hit by a loose board running over you after a fall. I have tried the stand ups but they just feel so inadequate to get my adrenalin fix. Cost wise, you can set up a good sit down foil for the cost of these upper end stand ups.https://photos.app.goo.gl/sBArVJWFhZR6dypWA

[CaptainMorgan]

2 hours ago, dalt1 said:

Since it says Foiling vs Surf, I will jump in with my 2 Cents. I have been foiling many years before you all even seen the foiling boards you are all talking about. The sit down foil is much more bang for the ones saying surfing got boring. Also get more adrenalin bang from sit down than stand up. I agree that the wrecks can be harder but you will never get hit by a loose board running over you after a fall. I have tried the stand ups but they just feel so inadequate to get my adrenalin fix. Cost wise, you can set up a good sit down foil for the cost of these upper end stand ups.https://photos.app.goo.gl/sBArVJWFhZR6dypWA

Ok, I am legit impressed.  Well done.

I was wasnt thinking of foils for adrenaline fix (more like my-knees-hurt cruising), but i can see how that foil air chair scratches the itch.

[AWADD09]

Love both

Foiling Pro:  Variations.  Someone already mentioned it but on those really windy days with the right board.  You don’t even need the boat.  
 

 

 

[mxmark4]

15 hours ago, dalt1 said:

Since it says Foiling vs Surf, I will jump in with my 2 Cents. I have been foiling many years before you all even seen the foiling boards you are all talking about. The sit down foil is much more bang for the ones saying surfing got boring. Also get more adrenalin bang from sit down than stand up. I agree that the wrecks can be harder but you will never get hit by a loose board running over you after a fall. I have tried the stand ups but they just feel so inadequate to get my adrenalin fix. Cost wise, you can set up a good sit down foil for the cost of these upper end stand ups.https://photos.app.goo.gl/sBArVJWFhZR6dypWA

I only have one chance ever to ride an airchair and it was over 15 years ago. I would love to try one again now that I can solidly ride a foil. Would be the best of both worlds the adrenaline of jumpin wakes combined with the feeling of flying a foil. 

[UWSkier]

How long until foil boards have bindings and can be used for stand up flips? 

As a fellow water user, I love to see folks hanging up the surf boards and dialing down the wakes. 😁

[bcoppess23]

5 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

How long until foil boards have bindings and can be used for stand up flips? 

As a fellow water user, I love to see folks hanging up the surf boards and dialing down the wakes. 😁

Already done.. Noah Flegel does them... https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=850495785528579

[shawndoggy]

@UWSkier

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CjqnZ-eumc8/

The "normies" are starting to do flips and airs too.  Some great progression threads on the wakefoil surfer FB group this summer.

[RCorsa]

Just be very careful foiling.  My buddy foils with a kite.  He came over wanting to try behind the boat. It looked like an innocuous basic crash doing 10.5mph on the smallest wave setting.  That small fin however is wicked sharp.  Filled by an ER visit and 16 stitches.  Wives (his and mine) were not happy with us as they were both away on girls trip. 

[IJM]

Ouch! Definitely some risk involved with our play time. My nephew wiped out on a wakeboard and did the scorpion. Took the board to the back of his head and split it open. We all wear a water helmet now after his incident. Glad your friend is okay.

[CaptainMorgan]

46 minutes ago, bcoppess23 said:

Already done.. Noah Flegel does them... https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=850495785528579

noah flegel is an alien.  he can ride anything.  hard to describe how hard that is (and how dangerous it could be - @RCorsa's experience and others i've seen do suggest helmets as a smart thing, especially in the learning stage where sketchy awkward falls happen; friend even got a hockey helmet w/ face shield at play-it-again-sports for when he started trying jumps)

[IJM]

Oh yeah goalie mask! Plus I find the helmet breaks the water before my head does. Lol.

[shawndoggy]

3 hours ago, RCorsa said:

Just be very careful foiling.  My buddy foils with a kite.  He came over wanting to try behind the boat.

I'm curious about this for an experienced foiler... I'm assuming that this was an "over the front" (broke at the waist) type crash?  Induced by dipping the foil into the push from the wave or something else?  Especially for a kiter, I'd assume that your buddy is used to leaning against line tension (the powered kite).  With foilers behind our boat I've noticed that balancing from push from the wave can be a lot different than line tension.  I've managed to get a few newbs up long line and they do fine with gentle heelside rides in clean water with the line.  But when they come in to the wake, they often struggle with balancing on their own without line tension.

[Slurpee]

The only foil injury I had was the #1 very first go at it.  I broke at the waist and dove over the toe side of the kit before I was even going forward.  Took a thick chunk of skin off my thumb is all.  We had helmets and slalom gloves on after that.  That being said, we were learning on our own with no coaches.  So after that there was enough pre-work on the boat that no one had a problem like that near the foil again.  Honestly the biggest pain in the but is my blood pressure as I swim and swim and swim and swim and keep swimming after the foil going off on it's own happily after I fall. LOL 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Slurpee
Sold the kit

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, Slurpee said:

Took a thick chunk of skin off my thumb is all. 

I kicked my foil a couple of years ago while treading water and waiting for the boat to circle back.  It did cut the top of my foot, but not to the point of needing stitches or anything.  Worst boating injuries we've had have been falling surfers taking boards to the face.  Falling backwards off of a foil is mostly pretty safe aside from the swimming after it.  diving in front of it is definitely no bueno tho!

[bcoppess23]

On 10/17/2022 at 2:32 PM, Slurpee said:

The only foil injury I had was the #1 very first go at it.  I broke at the waist and dove over the toe side of the kit before I was even going forward.  Took a thick chunk of skin off my thumb is all.  We had helmets and slalom gloves on after that.  That being said, we were learning on our own with no coaches.  So after that there was enough pre-work on the boat that no one had a problem like that near the foil again.  Honestly the biggest pain in the but is my blood pressure as I swim and swim and swim and swim and keep swimming after the foil going off on it's own happily after I fall. LOL

Btw, I haven't posted it yet, but I have a complete Armstrong/Dwarfcraft kit available that's just above my level if anyone wants to ask question via PM.  I bought two, but over estimated my middle aged athletic ability.  I'll stick with the easier of the two.

I am very familiar with that constant chase.. I've even considered buying a leash to attach to the foil.

Edited November 29, 2022 by bcoppess23
grammer error