LXi has been approved

[edgeski1]

The dealers have just received word that the Response LXi has indeed been tournament approved

[Malibudude]

Sweet!! Like I had much doubt that it would.

[Toby]

in many ways it is a better 3 event boat, as it was designed to be. but the look of the thing..

just to throw an idea in the air. does anyone else think it looks more like a big mastercraft prostar? looking at the underwater surfact i think it does..

[skisix@38]

That's great for the dealers to have some idea- and yes the approval was a foregone conclusion.

Questions:

1) What did Bu do to get it to pass?

2) When will a report of the approvals make it to AWSA's general membership?

3) What is Bu going to do about the boats that are in customers hands that don't have whatever it took to acheive a passing result?

[SmoothWaterMan]

You didn't hear it from me.

The difference in passing and not passing with today's larger boats is as miniscule as air temp or engine temperatures. That some mfg's didn't even bring their boat to the early test and waited until the December test was the writing on the wall about getting a modern 3-event boat certified, from any of the mfg's. It's gotten to be like drag races. Don't start the engine before the test, the engine will build up too much heat in the engine box. Walk your boat from the ramp to the course. Try to run your brand of boat first, in the cooler morning air. Bring 3 props, you may need them.

Of course, then if you get just the right prop for a standard powered boat to pull the drone and meet the short setup tolerances for a record capable tournament, that boat may be propped down too much to provide the mid-range acceleration needed for the jump event. Or, now you need to wait until the next morning at 6 am to test it, and find that it passes easily.

The standards and rules of the group formerly known as AWSA are still pushing skiers, boat mfg's, and newcomers away from the sport. Or, perhaps it's not a "sport" anymore, perhaps it should be classified as an "event", such as Nascar, F1, MotoGP, and the like. (note: Nascar Fans will see Ski Centurions at all the races this year) Although until GM starts building ski boats I don't see that happening.

The only other option is to build 6 tournament specific boats, and haul them to each tournament in the country. Don't worry about never skiing behind them outside of the tournament for the other skiers haven't either. It's just a boat that has no market value, but it will pass the test parameters, and every mfg. can once again have a 18-19' flat bottomed boat with a 84" beam. Ahhh yes, those were the days.

Peter.

[jjackkrash]

You didn't hear it from me.

The difference in passing and not passing with today's larger boats is as miniscule as air temp or engine temperatures. That some mfg's didn't even bring their boat to the early test and waited until the December test was the writing on the wall about getting a modern 3-event boat certified, from any of the mfg's. It's gotten to be like drag races. Don't start the engine before the test, the engine will build up too much heat in the engine box. Walk your boat from the ramp to the course. Try to run your brand of boat first, in the cooler morning air. Bring 3 props, you may need them.

Of course, then if you get just the right prop for a standard powered boat to pull the drone and meet the short setup tolerances for a record capable tournament, that boat may be propped down too much to provide the mid-range acceleration needed for the jump event. Or, now you need to wait until the next morning at 6 am to test it, and find that it passes easily.

The standards and rules of the group formerly known as AWSA are still pushing skiers, boat mfg's, and newcomers away from the sport. Or, perhaps it's not a "sport" anymore, perhaps it should be classified as an "event", such as Nascar, F1, MotoGP, and the like. (note: Nascar Fans will see Ski Centurions at all the races this year) Although until GM starts building ski boats I don't see that happening.

The only other option is to build 6 tournament specific boats, and haul them to each tournament in the country. Don't worry about never skiing behind them outside of the tournament for the other skiers haven't either. It's just a boat that has no market value, but it will pass the test parameters, and every mfg. can once again have a 18-19' flat bottomed boat with a 84" beam. Ahhh yes, those were the days.

Peter.

The situation you discribed doesn't sound that unfair to me. They (the AWSA) set up strict standards, everyone knows the rules, and if you have to, you walk the boat over in the morning because you have top engineers or other knowlegable people who understand what it takes to pass the test (any different than a wrestling match, where competitors have to make weight, and then drink water and gain ten lbs. before the match?). And if you have a boat that is capable of passing, and a qualified crew, then it will pass. It shouldn't be that easy to pass, or the test would be a farce. IMHO, if a manufacturer wants to market a boat as both a record-capable three event boat--and a family boat--then it should still perform to the standards of a record capable boat. Truthfully, from my perspective, the big three have done a pretty damn good job of doing both. But the standard should still put a premium on performance, which may limit the ability to pass a boat that's simply too big for its purpose, but that's the information a consumer needs to know. If your preference and priorities lie more toward family use, there are hundreds of other options on the market. At bottom, if it passes the test, and its still somewhat family friendly, then wow, you've got a helluva product that deserves cudos and accolades. Still, imho, if the boat gets too big and doesn't perform like a record capable boat, that's fine. I just want to know so I can purchase the smaller boat or otherwise make an informed decision.

[88Skier]

You didn't hear it from me.

The difference in passing and not passing with today's larger boats is as miniscule as air temp or engine temperatures. That some mfg's didn't even bring their boat to the early test and waited until the December test was the writing on the wall about getting a modern 3-event boat certified, from any of the mfg's. It's gotten to be like drag races. Don't start the engine before the test, the engine will build up too much heat in the engine box. Walk your boat from the ramp to the course. Try to run your brand of boat first, in the cooler morning air. Bring 3 props, you may need them.

Of course, then if you get just the right prop for a standard powered boat to pull the drone and meet the short setup tolerances for a record capable tournament, that boat may be propped down too much to provide the mid-range acceleration needed for the jump event. Or, now you need to wait until the next morning at 6 am to test it, and find that it passes easily.

The standards and rules of the group formerly known as AWSA are still pushing skiers, boat mfg's, and newcomers away from the sport. Or, perhaps it's not a "sport" anymore, perhaps it should be classified as an "event", such as Nascar, F1, MotoGP, and the like. (note: Nascar Fans will see Ski Centurions at all the races this year) Although until GM starts building ski boats I don't see that happening.

The only other option is to build 6 tournament specific boats, and haul them to each tournament in the country. Don't worry about never skiing behind them outside of the tournament for the other skiers haven't either. It's just a boat that has no market value, but it will pass the test parameters, and every mfg. can once again have a 18-19' flat bottomed boat with a 84" beam. Ahhh yes, those were the days.

Peter.

I'd go for that.

So are you saying the problem is that it's harder for the larger, bow riders to pass the test, than a smaller CB ski boat? It ought to be. Why are the manufacturers so stuck on making world class competition boats that the whole extended family can fit into. Maybe they should all make a 3 event boat like the SN 196 or Resonse. At some point, they won't be able to make them any bigger and still have them qualify.

[SmoothWaterMan]

No one buys them.

[SmoothWaterMan]

jjack,

I'm not saying that the test is unfair. Unfair implies that someone can pass it, and others can't. I'm saying that the governing body is not helping the sport of waterskiing as a whole, it's simply narrowing the field down. It's not hard to see at a class c tournament why there are no younger generations coming up through the ranks...it's no fun.

Peter

[skisix@38]

You didn't hear it from me.

The difference in passing and not passing with today's larger boats is as miniscule as air temp or engine temperatures. That some mfg's didn't even bring their boat to the early test and waited until the December test was the writing on the wall about getting a modern 3-event boat certified, from any of the mfg's. It's gotten to be like drag races. Don't start the engine before the test, the engine will build up too much heat in the engine box. Walk your boat from the ramp to the course. Try to run your brand of boat first, in the cooler morning air. Bring 3 props, you may need them.

Of course, then if you get just the right prop for a standard powered boat to pull the drone and meet the short setup tolerances for a record capable tournament, that boat may be propped down too much to provide the mid-range acceleration needed for the jump event. Or, now you need to wait until the next morning at 6 am to test it, and find that it passes easily.

The standards and rules of the group formerly known as AWSA are still pushing skiers, boat mfg's, and newcomers away from the sport. Or, perhaps it's not a "sport" anymore, perhaps it should be classified as an "event", such as Nascar, F1, MotoGP, and the like. (note: Nascar Fans will see Ski Centurions at all the races this year) Although until GM starts building ski boats I don't see that happening.

The only other option is to build 6 tournament specific boats, and haul them to each tournament in the country. Don't worry about never skiing behind them outside of the tournament for the other skiers haven't either. It's just a boat that has no market value, but it will pass the test parameters, and every mfg. can once again have a 18-19' flat bottomed boat with a 84" beam. Ahhh yes, those were the days.

Peter.

I'd go for that.

So are you saying the problem is that it's harder for the larger, bow riders to pass the test, than a smaller CB ski boat? It ought to be. Why are the manufacturers so stuck on making world class competition boats that the whole extended family can fit into. Maybe they should all make a 3 event boat like the SN 196 or Resonse. At some point, they won't be able to make them any bigger and still have them qualify.

Well, Iskied behind those boat and now I'm skiing behind all the newer widebody versions that fit the whole family- I'll stick with the wide body. Have you ever driven slalom for 2 hours with two other 200# guys sitting next to you in a 196? It's way uncomfortable, I would much rather do that in the 197 or RLXi. ALL those boat ski well from the rope end.

Peter- you hit the nail right on the head. Further, I think there's no younger folks because there's no chicks involved and thus no guys.

[88Skier]

Are the manufacturers tying their hands by only improving their 3 event boats, based on the criteria that it has to be a large bow rider that can accomadate a whole family, be good in rough water, and have plenty of storage for a whole weekend? It seems like they are trying to combine 2 boats into one, and at some point, the Response LXi can't get any bigger and have the wakes get better. If they focused strictly on perfomance, wouldn't they get a better 3 event boat?

[88Skier]

You didn't hear it from me.

The difference in passing and not passing with today's larger boats is as miniscule as air temp or engine temperatures. That some mfg's didn't even bring their boat to the early test and waited until the December test was the writing on the wall about getting a modern 3-event boat certified, from any of the mfg's. It's gotten to be like drag races. Don't start the engine before the test, the engine will build up too much heat in the engine box. Walk your boat from the ramp to the course. Try to run your brand of boat first, in the cooler morning air. Bring 3 props, you may need them.

Of course, then if you get just the right prop for a standard powered boat to pull the drone and meet the short setup tolerances for a record capable tournament, that boat may be propped down too much to provide the mid-range acceleration needed for the jump event. Or, now you need to wait until the next morning at 6 am to test it, and find that it passes easily.

The standards and rules of the group formerly known as AWSA are still pushing skiers, boat mfg's, and newcomers away from the sport. Or, perhaps it's not a "sport" anymore, perhaps it should be classified as an "event", such as Nascar, F1, MotoGP, and the like. (note: Nascar Fans will see Ski Centurions at all the races this year) Although until GM starts building ski boats I don't see that happening.

The only other option is to build 6 tournament specific boats, and haul them to each tournament in the country. Don't worry about never skiing behind them outside of the tournament for the other skiers haven't either. It's just a boat that has no market value, but it will pass the test parameters, and every mfg. can once again have a 18-19' flat bottomed boat with a 84" beam. Ahhh yes, those were the days.

Peter.

I'd go for that.

So are you saying the problem is that it's harder for the larger, bow riders to pass the test, than a smaller CB ski boat? It ought to be. Why are the manufacturers so stuck on making world class competition boats that the whole extended family can fit into. Maybe they should all make a 3 event boat like the SN 196 or Resonse. At some point, they won't be able to make them any bigger and still have them qualify.

Well, Iskied behind those boat and now I'm skiing behind all the newer widebody versions that fit the whole family- I'll stick with the wide body. Have you ever driven slalom for 2 hours with two other 200# guys sitting next to you in a 196? It's way uncomfortable, I would much rather do that in the 197 or RLXi. ALL those boat ski well from the rope end.

Peter- you hit the nail right on the head. Further, I think there's no younger folks because there's no chicks involved and thus no guys.

Only recreationally. Not at the level that you do.

Skiing is much harder to get into than boarding. You need a course if you're going to excell.. Around here, there aren't many tournoments, except the INT does stop in Maine once a year. I brought my kids to an event in 2003, and didn't find the crowd all that welcoming of new comers. My kids weren't interested after hanging around the skiing event for one day.

[skicrave]

Are the manufacturers tying their hands by only improving their 3 event boats, based on the criteria that it has to be a large bow rider that can accomadate a whole family, be good in rough water, and have plenty of storage for a whole weekend? It seems like they are trying to combine 2 boats into one, and at some point, the Response LXi can't get any bigger and have the wakes get better. If they focused strictly on perfomance, wouldn't they get a better 3 event boat?

Sure, but you missed what Peter said above:

No one buys them.

[88Skier]

I didn't miss it. I guess I'm destined to be an old boat collector.

[skicrave]

I'm right there with you. The new boats are comfy, perform great, etc. but I still love the look of a '94 ProStar Stars and Stripes or other early model closed bow ski boats.

[tru-jack]

I agree about getting the kids into skiing, it's not as cool as boarding, the tournament crowd isn't very friendly and the whole scene isn't very appealing to kids, and without the girls it's hard to get the boys, they have to be trying to impress someone? It reminds me of an older friend of mine that was seriously wondering why there aren't many young girls hanging around the curling rinks, what! it's simple it's not cool. Why would a young girl hang out in a curling rink to watch a bunch of seniors play an incredibly boring sport, if it's not cool the kids aren't interested. The sport of 3 event skiing must work on becoming a cool thing to do and it will attract more kids. The wakeboard events have live bands, bikini contests, etc... the ski tournaments have about 25 people not talking to one another.... It's easy to see why the kids board and not ski. I think the 3 event industry must welcome newcomers to have any chance of growth.

Back to the boat, I think it's great they can make tournement boats that I can convince the wife to help buy because we can enjoy it for the rest of the day after the morning sets are done.

[VinRLX]

IMHO, if a manufacturer wants to market a boat as both a record-capable three event boat--and a family boat--then it should still perform to the standards of a record capable boat. Truthfully, from my perspective, the big three have done a pretty damn good job of doing both. But the standard should still put a premium on performance, which may limit the ability to pass a boat that's simply too big for its purpose, but that's the information a consumer needs to know. If your preference and priorities lie more toward family use, there are hundreds of other options on the market. At bottom, if it passes the test, and its still somewhat family friendly, then wow, you've got a helluva product that deserves cudos and accolades. Still, imho, if the boat gets too big and doesn't perform like a record capable boat, that's fine. I just want to know so I can purchase the smaller boat or otherwise make an informed decision.

I guess I'm going to be in the minority of boat buyers, but I agree with you.

I ski from the dock, so I don't require a ton of room--though I'd be happy to have it. But I sure wouldn't buy a vdrive just to get the room.

I don't ski tournaments or at that level, so I don't 'need' a tournament boat. But I do ski a LOT and love high performance, so that is what I bought.

I can understand that not many people buy the traditional CB 3-E boats anymore. Why would they when you can get similar overall performance from a boat with more room and amenities? However, it seems these characteristics are now preponderant at the expense of performance. Or at least that is how I interpret the difficulty in certification.

As Tommy Boy® used to say, "form over function."

[SmoothWaterMan]

Jack, I can still sell you a closed bow Response, and it does perform better than a Response LX. Did you want to upgrade to one?

Peter.

[skisix@38]

I can understand that not many people buy the traditional CB 3-E boats anymore. Why would they when you can get similar overall performance from a boat with more room and amenities? However, it seems these characteristics are now preponderant at the expense of performance. Or at least that is how I interpret the difficulty in certification.

Wasn't someone mentioning that they loved the true to form CB '94MC190 in this thread? I owned one of those for 10 years and loved that boat but, I can tell you with absolute certainty that my RLXi runs circles around that '94 in every category of performance and my 190 was the powerslot tranny.

I don't think that the biggness of the boats or OB have anything to do with testing as much as I do that the tests have always been difficult to pass. I think most mfgs got caught with their britches down with the addition of "stuff" this year. In '94 I remember distinctly that my boat didn't run 36 mph when it was new with me behind it. I had to re-prop it and MC had to change out the computer program several times and then things were alright- I belive it was due more to the engine loosening up then the ECM but that's just me.

[VinRLX]

Jack, I can still sell you a closed bow Response, and it does perform better than a Response LX. Did you want to upgrade to one?

Peter.

Wouldn't you make more $ if I upgraded to that 2006 RLXi sitting on your lot??? You gotta go back to salesmanship school.

All kidding aside, in what aspects does the CB R perform better and to what degree? When I went with the LX, I figured: same hull, less weight up front, a little more space for occasional use. Other than clipping the boom cable on and off, we use the OB maybe three times a summer. We could easily live without it, but I do like the versatility.

Maybe I'm way off here, I don't even know what all the tests include, but it just seems to me that a new model from any manufacturer that has difficulty w/certification does not perform/handle as well as the last one. Did the 1998 RLX or 2003 RLXi have any difficulty with certification?

Maybe I'm talking about picayune differences here, akin perhaps to the trade-offs between one prop or another. But if you had four different boats to offer with #1 being the best performance and least space, #10 being the opposite, and #4 and 6 being in the middle, I'd be looking at #4 and 6. The choice being made by the Butt-Dyno.

I can understand that not many people buy the traditional CB 3-E boats anymore. Why would they when you can get similar overall performance from a boat with more room and amenities? However, it seems these characteristics are now preponderant at the expense of performance. Or at least that is how I interpret the difficulty in certification.

Wasn't someone mentioning that they loved the true to form CB '94MC190 in this thread?

Yeah, some blind guy from Maine. (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Wasn't someone mentioning that they loved the true to form CB '94MC190 in this thread? I owned one of those for 10 years and loved that boat but, I can tell you with absolute certainty that my RLXi runs circles around that '94 in every category of performance and my 190 was the powerslot tranny.

Based on that, I'd buy an RLXi without blinking. Better performance, more room/amenities.

[SmoothWaterMan]

Wouldn't you make more $ if I upgraded to that 2006 RLXi sitting on your lot??? You gotta go back to salesmanship school.

All kidding aside, in what aspects does the CB R perform better and to what degree? When I went with the LX, I figured: same hull, less weight up front, a little more space for occasional use. Other than clipping the boom cable on and off, we use the OB maybe three times a summer. We could easily live without it, but I do like the versatility.

The Response is faster, (might accelerate faster too, but not sure you can measure it), doesn't catch water in the bow, has more storage space, and looks better. It's a boat that is near and dear to my heart. Oh, it's easier to clip the boom cable on the closed bow, it's all flat up there. But if you buy one I don't want it back on trade for a long long time. I've only sold two in the last uh...uh...shoot, I don't know how long. 4-5 years maybe?

In terms of salesmanship, sorry dude, I sell what I love, and that's the traditional skiboat. The fact they are the best performing best skiing best handling best looking boats on the water is a side benefit. But the top of that list is a closed bow Response in my eyes. :) Maybe that's why I'm not in the top ten sales volume list.

Peter

[SacRiverRat]

What difference does it make? Can't you ski behind it if it isn't certified?

No wonder wakeboarding events are more fun.. not so stuffy and uptight

Edited January 26, 2007 by SacRiverRat

[VinRLX]

In terms of salesmanship, sorry dude, I sell what I love, and that's the traditional skiboat. Maybe that's why I'm not in the top ten sales volume list.

Hey, I'll help you up your numbers when the time is right. And not to worry, I can't go with the CB R, so trade-back won't be an issue.

What difference does it make? Can't you ski behind it if it isn't certified?

It's not the 'certified' per se. It's the standard to which a boat of that nature is held.

Let's say you're in the market for a new LSV. . . This year's model has less power, turns slower, has less interior room, and is now 'wakeboard certified.' Would you buy it? You can still board behind it, right? Just trying to put things in a backward perspective so a wakeboarder like you can understand.

[skisix@38]

Based on that, I'd buy an RLXi without blinking. Better performance, more room/amenities.

That's all I'm saying.....

And Peter- You say patato, I say potatoe. I don't know how you are coming up with that stuff? I've been in several Rlx's and more storage, faster, looks better????? I can understand the near and dear to your heart stuff though

Sacriver- you can ski behind them all!!!! If they don't pass the tests, you can't ski behind them in a tournament. Maybe that's not so bad anymore....

Edited January 26, 2007 by skisix@38

[jjackkrash]

Peter, it wasn't my intention to offend. And I don't think we fundamentally disagree.

Point 1: I think it's absolutely great that Malibu can a make bigger, family friendly three event boat. It's a testament to American engineers. My real point was, I like that they hold the boat to a strict standard so that the engineers and designers have to rack their brain to make a boat that they can sell and still pass the test. In fact, my next boat will be an RLxi. If it takes a couple of times to pass the test, so what. I know if it passes the test, it will perform great. I think the RLxi's are fabulous, and I look forward to buying one in the next couple of months. (in fact, I'll probably giggle like a little girl all the way home!)

Point 2: It really stinks that the youth don't think three event skiing is sexy, or worthwhile. And it saddens me to hear that the perception is that ski tournaments are an aloof place where newbies aren't welcome. I have been away for awhile, but our touney's used to have about a hundred and fifty kids, from elite skiers, to pretty much beginners, with their parents, and grand parents. All were welcome. Best time of my life, wouldn't trade it for anything.

Point 3: My father has been in the boat business his whole life, he currently sells sea-ray's, and I know how hard you guys work and what it takes to make a living. I understand that if the boats don't move, no one gets paid. I (litterally) grew up at the big seattle boat show, and I loved every minute of it, but I know it's a tough business.

Point 4: That black RLxi you have advertised on boat traderonline is my dream boat. I just wish it wasn't 1300 miles away.

Point 5: There is no better sport in the world than chasing balls. Except for jump. JMHO.

Cheers,