Real world Towing a 25LSV with a newer Tahoe/Suburban/Grand Wagoneer - And weight

[Surf4FamFun]

54 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

Not saying this is wrong, but I have been spending a lot of time researching lately due to my new TT, and I have yet to see a 1500 rated for more than 5k without WDH. 

I have been doing lots of reading and am finding pretty much the same thing.  If you dig far enough you find the WDH required as you suggest.  Hope posting below works.  Last time I tried it did not.  it explains pretty well and shows what goes on when you hitch up.  Comes down to simple physics.  When you put weight on hitch front axel gets lighter with more truck and trailer weight on drive axle.  No way for typical 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck rear axle to take the weight at full rated tow weight.

https://youtu.be/XBZu39pQ8Gg

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Surf4FamFun
trying to fix URL link

[jjackkrash]

1 hour ago, UWSkier said:

Not saying this is wrong, but I have been spending a lot of time researching lately due to my new TT, and I have yet to see a 1500 rated for more than 5k without WDH. 

G**D*** it.  I was pretty sure I was right but did a little digging.  More to follow.  

[jjackkrash]

Edit pic

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by jjackkrash
Edit

[jjackkrash]

GM made a big deal about their trailering door stickers when they came out (IIRC in 2020).  You are supposed to be able to rely on them and if you meet the numbers in the door you are supposed to be good.  The above pic is from the door of my truck.  I am good to carry 2k on the hitch (max tongue weight) and pull 20K conventionally and there is no WDH requirement in the sticker (as long as I meet the other numbers on the door).  I am 100% sure I have seen a max trailer-package 1500 with a 1250 lbs. tongue-weight rating and 12500 lbs. conventional tow rating on the sticker and no WDH limit on the sticker.  

I just double checked my manual, and I am indeed good to put 2k on the hitch and pull 20K pounds with no WDH on the conventional hitch on my 3500.  But there was a disclaimer in a chart that stated that 1500s need a WDH to tow more the 7,000 pounds.  I had to look pretty damn hard to find the disclaimer in the chart.  

So, more than 5K for the half tons.  But only 7K and not the full freight like I thought.  At least for 2020, based on a chart in my manual for my 3500.

But I really had to work to find that disclaimer.  

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by jjackkrash

[JeffK]

7 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

But I really had to work to find that disclaimer.

Agreed.  They aren't making it easy to find this info.  Which is why I come back to the Grand Wagoneer concerns and think my buddy's product expert is likely correct. 

@RyanBI hopeful it won't be an issue for the 23, but definitely won't work for the 25

Edited February 9, 2022 by JeffK

[UWSkier]

8 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

GM made a big deal about their trailering door stickers when they came out (IIRC in 2020).  You are supposed to be able to rely on them and if you meet the numbers in the door you are supposed to be good.  The above pic is from the door of my truck.  I am good to carry 2k on the hitch (max tongue weight) and pull 20K conventionally and there is no WDH requirement in the sticker (as long as I meet the other numbers on the door).  I am 100% sure I have seen a max trailer-package 1500 with a 1250 lbs. tongue-weight rating and 12500 lbs. conventional tow rating on the sticker and no WDH limit on the sticker.  

I just double checked my manual, and I am indeed good to put 2k on the hitch and pull 20K pounds with no WDH on the conventional hitch on my 3500.  But there was a disclaimer in a chart that stated that 1500s need a WDH to tow more the 7,000 pounds.  I had to look pretty damn hard to find the disclaimer in the chart.  

So, more than 5K for the half tons.  But only 7K and not the full freight like I thought.  At least for 2020, based on a chart in my manual for my 3500.

But I really had to work to find that disclaimer.  

 

Best thing I have found on the GMs for this info is the VIN decoder. Try it out with your VIN.

https://chevroletforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php

Guarantee 90 percent of surf boat owners towing with a half ton are over capacity. 

[jjackkrash]

1 hour ago, UWSkier said:

Best thing I have found on the GMs for this info is the VIN decoder. Try it out with your VIN.

https://chevroletforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php

Guarantee 90 percent of surf boat owners towing with a half ton are over capacity. 

I noticed a few errors on it.  It also said this:

***

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.

5000  lbs  5000.0 min 5000.0 max

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.

500  lbs  500.0 min 500.0 max

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.

20000  lbs  14500.0 min 20000.0 max

***

My manual specifically says WDH not required to meet maximum tow specs and I routinely tow my mini ex with 1.8-2K on the hitch with no WDH.  

 

[jjackkrash]

[Surf4FamFun]

All this talk is about for the most part avoiding two things, overloading the rear axel and not having the front wheels getting so light that steering, braking, and trailer sway are an issue.  These are soft limits, an axel is not going to fail in one trip overloaded a bit.  Same thing for the front axel, tire, road conditions, traffic encounters all make a difference in keeping control.  

There is no doubt in my mind that most every truck I see pulling a 23 ?? or above is not doing it by the book.  With the few miles most of us tow we don't see problems, bearings get hot, possibly early tire failure, perhaps a little wiggle when a truck passes us on the highway.  Personal decision, are we doing it by the book to maximize safety and tow vehicle longevity or do what we think is reasonable.

Anyone that has traveled in third world countries has likely been amazed by the sight of overloaded trucks, and cars.  Not safe, tears things up, but they do it until it won't.  

 

[Surf4FamFun]

1 hour ago, jjackkrash said:

What is "hitch distribution", 50% of 7k sitting on the bumper would be a bit much for a 1500.

[jjackkrash]

12 minutes ago, Surf4FamFun said:

What is "hitch distribution", 50% of 7k sitting on the bumper would be a bit much for a 1500.

Ya got me, I bought a DRW with a 2K hitch rating so I did not have to worry about any of this. 

Edit:  But I am pretty sure that means if 800 lbs is getting added to the hitch (tongue weight) that when you weigh the truck and axles 400 pounds is going on (being carried by) the front axle and 400 pounds is going on (being carried by) the back axle depending on how much tension you put on the WDH chains.  

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by jjackkrash

[jjackkrash]

11 minutes ago, Surf4FamFun said:

All this talk is about for the most part avoiding two things, overloading the rear axel and not having the front wheels getting so light that steering, braking, and trailer sway are an issue.  

 

Yes, these are the primary safety issues, not how much your actual hitch can carry.  Adding a stronger hitch won't change these dynamics.  

[UWSkier]

3 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

interesting find!

[Surf4FamFun]

Not to pick on GM but to illustrate how convoluted this topic is, see wording from the GM towing guide below referring to the 1500.  It says the tongue weight should be 10-15% of trailer weight which is typical with a not to exceed of 1,250 lbs on the hitch.  But then it makes the customer responsible for being sure that the "Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating" (RGAWR) is not exceeded.  The table on the page this disclaimer came from shows just over 50 (engine, transmission, driveline, and bed) combinations with max tow numbers on the same "truck" ranging from 7,200 to 11,900 lbs.  I had to use my fingers to count it but that is a range of 4,700 lbs.  The max is over 50% more than the min, on the same truck.  This 46 page PDF does not show that I can find what the RGAWR is for any of the trucks listed, just don't exceed what is on the sticker on the door jam I guess.  Everyone has scales to weigh their truck rear axel right?  As soon as you put more than one passenger of 150 pounds in or gear in the bed the max numbers start dropping, more so without a WDH than with.  

 

 

Tongue Weight Notes Trailer tongue weight should be 10–15% of total loaded trailer weight up to 1,250 lbs. The addition of trailer tongue weight must not cause vehicle to exceed Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (RGAWR) or Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR).

[martinarcher]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:32 AM, shawndoggy said:

Excursions have 500lb tongue weight hitches.  Ask how I know...

You can't leave that in here an not tell the story.    

Are you talking about bumper towing or the actual frame mounted receiver?  I've towed over 10k many times with my 7.3 and was way over 500lbs tongue weight with a B&W ball mount.

[martinarcher]

Looks like the 500lb capacity is with the 5k towing capacity without the class IV receiver. 

11k tow capacity comes with an 1100lb tongue rating.

Table and details on page 13 if you are interested.

https://blueovaltrucks.com/tech/pdf_documents/2002_ford_towing_guide.pdf

[shawndoggy]

20 minutes ago, martinarcher said:

Looks like the 500lb capacity is with the 5k towing capacity without the class IV receiver. 

11k tow capacity comes with an 1100lb tongue rating.

Table and details on page 13 if you are interested.

https://blueovaltrucks.com/tech/pdf_documents/2002_ford_towing_guide.pdf

11k only if you use a wdh. I don’t think you can read the last column without the preceding column. If that were the case then you have two conflicting max tongue weights. 

[shawndoggy]

33 minutes ago, martinarcher said:

You can't leave that in here an not tell the story.    

Are you talking about bumper towing or the actual frame mounted receiver?  I've towed over 10k many times with my 7.3 and was way over 500lbs tongue weight with a B&W ball mount.

Sorry I misspoke. The receiver isn’t limited by weight but the trucks towing capacity without wdh is. Same as the half tons. It’s not the receiver that’s the weak point it is manufacturer’s rating of the trucks ability to distribute the load on the suspension. 

haha I “know” because I was there when the 5k sticker fell off. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by shawndoggy

[martinarcher]

14 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

11k only if you use a wdh. I don’t think you can read the last column without the preceding column. If that were the case then you have two conflicting max tongue weights. 

Fair point.  I use WDH ball mount when towing the camper but I've not seen a boat trailer setup with it.  Do any of the 25 LSV's have WDH setups?

[gregtay]

On 1/28/2022 at 12:50 PM, JeffK said:

And does anybody know if the pressure/buffeting issue is present in the new GM's with the duramax?  I drove a 2018 Tahoe and almost vomited for the pressure in my ears.

I tow with a Duramax LM2 Escalade... no issues pressure issues (but not really sure what you are talking about.)  Smooth quite ride with my '19 23lSV in tow

[gregtay]

On 1/28/2022 at 12:38 PM, JeffK said:

Hey crew!  Looking for anyone that has had real experience towing with any of the above mentioned rigs.  I had an AWD Yukon denali and got dragged down a ramp with my 23 many years ago and always vowed to never tow without a 3/4 ton rig.  But I have absolutely grown tired of not having an SUV anymore.  I know I could go electric over hydraulic and swap the tongue for that issue, but I also want a great towing experience.  We don't tow a ton anymore, as I leave the boat at the lake except for a few times a year.  But we have talked about taking some larger trips with it and I don't want to be hamstrung with a smaller vehicle.  

Also, anyone know the true weight of a 2019 25 with Malibu trailer?  I have such a hard time trusting the published numbers.  

I can't help with the 25... but I do have a '21 Duramax Escalade (w/HD Tow) to tow my 19 23LSV (highly optioned, so ~7500# ready for the lake.)  The new GM platform with the air suspension is an awesome tow rig, very stable, smooth, and always under control.  The Duramax is a perfect pair (it also helps that it adds some extra 200#s in the nose.)  Last I checked the 25 LSV would be another 1500-2000#'s. That would be over the limits of the chassis and I can tell you that if you exceed the rear suspension limits the car will start yelling at you (my set up does not, but if a bunch of people jump in the bow on the trailer at the ramp then the warning will come up.)    Short trips you will be fine, but I don't think you would have the same stress free long highway drives that I enjoy with a slightly lighter boat... the platform manages 7500#s very well.  The Grand Wagoneer will get you closer to your weight limits... but so far the GW launch has been a bit of a mess.  They are also switching the GW to the new turbo V6 (you can order now)... so you might want to wait and see how that motor performs at towing.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by gregtay

[jjackkrash]

7 hours ago, gregtay said:

That would be over the limits of the chassis and I can tell you that if you exceed the rear suspension limits the car will start yelling at you (my set up does not, but if a bunch of people jump in the bow on the trailer at the ramp then the warning will come up.) 

 

Are you saying it has a scale/sensor in it that measures the payload or hitch limits and screams if you are over the payload or hitch limit?  (I may need to give this a try--so cool).  

[gregtay]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:00 PM, jjackkrash said:

Are you saying it has a scale/sensor in it that measures the payload or hitch limits and screams if you are over the payload or hitch limit?  (I may need to give this a try--so cool).  

No,  I can't stay this is directly related to the max payload or hitch rating, but that would be a cool feature.    It does have a sensor that alerts you when you have exceeded the weight limit of the air suspension for each axle.  I don't know exactly what that number is and how it is related to rated rear axle max load, I expect the susp limit is lower than the actual axle limit.  The suspension warning is going to take into account the cargo/load in the vehicle + the hitch load.  What I do know is, that when on a trip and we are loaded down with gear in the back, if I am backing down a steep launch ramp (more load on the rear axle) and one or two people jump in the bow, then I will get the warning.  This is the only scenario where I have seen it pop up, and only happened two or three times (and in in each case I wasn't surprised based on what was going on with the boat, steep ramp, a few people jumping in the bow to grab gear, etc.)  

[Kilravock]

I should have seen this topic much earlier, so I apologize for resurrecting it, but I figure my experience is worth it for some.

I just got done replacing the transmission on my 2017 Suburban 1500. The burb barely has 50k miles. I had been towing a 2014 21' VLX for the past year a few times a month in the Arizona heat. Catastrophic failure. Not cheap. I have pictures of the fine metal sludge after pulling the pan if anyone feels adventurous.

They advertise an 8k max towing capacity for the Silverado 1500 series, but read the fine print. The vast majority of our trailers are dead weight with surge brakes. A WDH on our trailers will void the Malibu warranty because it interferes with the braking system (I checked after I learned this lesson). Per GM's site (as stated above), that max is 5k, not 8k. 3700lb boat, 800lb trailer, 41 gallons of fuel, plus gear, plus passengers... adds up real fast.

The exact same thing happened to my 2007 Tahoe in April of 2021. I just figured it quit because it had a lot of miles. Now I understand that I killed both of them by towing at max dead weight capacity.

Expensive lesson to learn.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Kilravock

[Stevo]

Time to go diesel 3/4 -1 ton