Real world Towing a 25LSV with a newer Tahoe/Suburban/Grand Wagoneer - And weight

[JeffK]

Hey crew!  Looking for anyone that has had real experience towing with any of the above mentioned rigs.  I had an AWD Yukon denali and got dragged down a ramp with my 23 many years ago and always vowed to never tow without a 3/4 ton rig.  But I have absolutely grown tired of not having an SUV anymore.  I know I could go electric over hydraulic and swap the tongue for that issue, but I also want a great towing experience.  We don't tow a ton anymore, as I leave the boat at the lake except for a few times a year.  But we have talked about taking some larger trips with it and I don't want to be hamstrung with a smaller vehicle.  

Also, anyone know the true weight of a 2019 25 with Malibu trailer?  I have such a hard time trusting the published numbers.  

[JeffK]

And does anybody know if the pressure/buffeting issue is present in the new GM's with the duramax?  I drove a 2018 Tahoe and almost vomited for the pressure in my ears.

[hethj7]

My 2019 25LSV with tandem trailer, full of fuel, but no other gear to speak of scaled out at about 8800 lbs.   Trailer axles actually read 8,000 on the scale, and I just assumed 10% tongue weight to arrive at my 8,800 number.   That includes 250# of lead I run.   

If you want a "great towing experience" I simply don't see how any of the modern 1/2 ton SUVs will provide that.    Not saying they won't get the job done especially for limited use, but I can't see any of them being great.   I don't have real world experience with the modern GM, but own a 2015 Expedition (which I know is getting dated now), but from a towing capability (really just stopping as power isn't an issue) perspective with my LSV, great isn't the term I would use.  

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by hethj7

[JeffK]

3 hours ago, hethj7 said:

My 2019 25LSV with tandem trailer, full of fuel, but no other gear to speak of scaled out at about 8800 lbs.   Trailer axles actually read 8,000 on the scale, and I just assumed 10% tongue weight to arrive at my 8,800 number.   That includes 250# of lead I run.   

If you want a "great towing experience" I simply don't see how any of the modern 1/2 ton SUVs will provide that.    Not saying they won't get the job done especially for limited use, but I can't see any of them being great.   I don't have real world experience with the modern GM, but own a 2015 Expedition (which I know is getting dated now), but from a towing capability (really just stopping as power isn't an issue) perspective with my LSV, great isn't the term I would use.  

 

 

Thank you.  This is very helpful.  I expected to be close to 8k, not close to 9k.  I think the advertised dry weight of the boat is something like 5600 maybe?  That's a big jump.  I knew it was likely listed lite, but that's pretty lite.

[hethj7]

1 hour ago, JeffK said:

Thank you.  This is very helpful.  I expected to be close to 8k, not close to 9k.  I think the advertised dry weight of the boat is something like 5600 maybe?  That's a big jump.  I knew it was likely listed lite, but that's pretty lite.

I am not sure anyone has ever solved the listed weight riddles. But it all starts adding up quick.  1,500lbs trailer?, 77 gallons of fuel, batteries, etc.  

[RyanB]

Our secondary tow vehicle is a 2019 Ford Expedition MAX. It replaced a 2011 Yukon Denali XL.  The Ex is SIGNIFICANTLY better as a tow vehicle.  

If I didn't have my 3500 RAM DRW as a baseline, I'd actually say that the Ex is a very good tow vehicle.  The EcoBoost is a very good engine, the 10 speed tranny shifts smoothly and always seems to know what gear to be in.  Where I notice the main difference between the truck and the Ex is on long highway drives. I can set cruise at 80 MPH on the truck, and drive 500 miles to Lake Powell, and be ready to go.  The Ex is much more comfortable at 70 - 75 (It can get a little occasional "wiggle" at higher speeds).  And when we get to the lake, I'm pretty tired.  The other big issue with the Ex is temps when driving across the passes on I70.  Tranny and engine get close to 240*.  That won't be an issue if you aren't towing the big passes, but it is for me.

My answer to if the Ex (or a similar full size SUV is sufficient) is how often/far do you tow?  We tow a lot.  5000 miles in a low year.  Sometimes close to twice to that.  Personally, I would MUCH prefer a HD truck as a primary tow vehicle.  But I think the Ex is adequate for most.

My trailer came with junk Chinese tires.  When I upgraded them to GY Endurance, there was a noticeable improvement in the way the trailer towed.  I also upgraded my brakes from the surge to electric.  I did that because I didn't like the jerk you get with surge brakes accelerating from a stop, didn't like the way that they performed in the passes, and got unnerved a couple times when the boat caused the Yukon to skid down a steep ramp.  Both might be a consideration for you should you go the SUV route.

My Ex has been a good vehicle, but I am really a MOPAR guy at heart, and will be upgrading to either a Wagoneer or GW as soon as I can order a LWB model.  That said, if you're concerned about towing, I'd make sure to give the Ex or the Navigator a look over the GM.  WIth the GM, I think you really need to get the 6.2 or the 3.0 diesel.  IMO, the 5.3 just wouldn't cut it.

Oh, and I think you might be surprised on the weights.  I scaled my 2014 23LSV when I bought it.  Pretty much empty, it was 6200 pounds.  So, with lead, fuel, and gear, I am sure I am right at 7000 pounds (right at the GVWR of the trailer).

[dwc032]

No way Id use a half ton vehicle to tow a 25 LSV. My 20 23 MXZ was 9200 pounds on are trip last summer to Trinity lake and I used my 3/4 ton to tow it.  That's full of fuel, and all our gear for a week long trip. My wife has an 18 Escalade we use it to do local trips. The 6.2 does well and has load leveling suspension, but no way I will go further than a day trip with it. 

I can guarantee that 25 LSV will be well into 10k for your week long trips this summer. And that's just boat, trailer and your gear. Then you add people and gear weight in the SUV and you will be at max rated weight. 

[dwc032]

On 1/28/2022 at 7:24 PM, JeffK said:

Thank you.  This is very helpful.  I expected to be close to 8k, not close to 9k.  I think the advertised dry weight of the boat is something like 5600 maybe?  That's a big jump.  I knew it was likely listed lite, but that's pretty lite.

Yeah those listed weights always seem to be way low.

 

[JeffK]

On 1/29/2022 at 12:06 AM, RyanB said:

My Ex has been a good vehicle, but I am really a MOPAR guy at heart, and will be upgrading to either a Wagoneer or GW as soon as I can order a LWB model.  That said, if you're concerned about towing, I'd make sure to give the Ex or the Navigator a look over the GM.  WIth the GM, I think you really need to get the 6.2 or the 3.0 diesel.  IMO, the 5.3 just wouldn't cut it.

Ryan - Here is an example of what I was seeing.  I finally remembered where I had seen it.  If you go into the specs section of the listings for the new wagoneers, this is what you will see.  Not all sites will show the specs at this level, but if you dig you can find them.  I really want it not to be an issue as I feel like this is the best option for a towing SUV, but it has me second guessing.  I'm still seriously looking at the duraburbs, but it hurts to put the same kind of money to only get a 2016 suburban with the diesel drivetrain.

https://www.stanleycdjrbrownfield.com/new-Brownfield-2022-+-Grand+Wagoneer-Series+III-1C4SJVGJ5NS101371

Trailering

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 5000

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 500

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 9850

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 985

Maximum Trailering Capacity (lbs): 9850

Edited February 7, 2022 by JeffK

[RyanB]

15 minutes ago, JeffK said:

Ryan - Here is an example of what I was seeing.  I finally remembered where I had seen it.  If you go into the specs section of the listings for the new wagoneers, this is what you will see.  Not all sites will show the specs at this level, but if you dig you can find them.  I really want it not to be an issue as I feel like this is the best option for a towing SUV, but it has me second guessing.  I'm still seriously looking at the duraburbs, but it hurts to put the same kind of money to only get a 2016 suburban with the diesel drivetrain.

https://www.stanleycdjrbrownfield.com/new-Brownfield-2022-+-Grand+Wagoneer-Series+III-1C4SJVGJ5NS101371

Trailering

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 5000

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 500

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 9850

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 985

Maximum Trailering Capacity (lbs): 9850

Well, that is the first I have seen it.  Sure seems like that info should be in the owners manual, and it is not.  I'd still like to know where they are getting the info from, as the dealer I am working with didn't know anything about it (I did ask).

I personally have no interest in spending the kind of cash they get for a Duraburb.  It isn't even on my list.  I'll be ordering either a Wagoneer or GW when they are available.

[JeffK]

3 hours ago, RyanB said:

Well, that is the first I have seen it.  Sure seems like that info should be in the owners manual, and it is not.  I'd still like to know where they are getting the info from, as the dealer I am working with didn't know anything about it (I did ask).

I personally have no interest in spending the kind of cash they get for a Duraburb.  It isn't even on my list.  I'll be ordering either a Wagoneer or GW when they are available.

I agree.  Not sure if the owners manual went to print before the details emerged.  I just don't know, but it seems like real world info to me.

I agree that the duraburbs are expensive, but they are right up in the same range as the GW's.  Unfortunately, not much warranty with them though.  I just don't feel comfortable towing the 25 with anything less than the duraburb.  I wish GM would come to realize that the boat and RV market exploded in the last couple of years and they could do some real damage in the market if they brought back the 2500 or 3500 Suburban, but focused them more on a tow vehicle as opposed to an armored vehicle.  

[UWSkier]

I don't see how you aren't going to be possibly well over capacities on a half ton Suburban or any other half-ton-based SUV.

Suburban max towing for 2022 is right around 8k lbs.  Max payload is a little over 1600.

So if a 25LSV with fuel and 250 lbs of lead is right around 8000 at the axles, you're over your weight.  If it's only 10% on the tongue (typically it's a little more), you have a maximum of 800 lbs for the family, kids, their friends, dogs, etc.  People are heavy...

And as with above, GM usually limits you to a maximum of about 5k lbs without WDH.

https://chevroletforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php

That link is a great resource for any GM guy looking to do some towing.

[Surf4FamFun]

Until the last 8 years or so there was no complete standard for qualifying towing limits.  In comes SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) J2807 which is as I understand not a mandate but if you want to test to it and advertise as such you can.  At that point your tow vehicle (up to 14,000 pounds) can be compared to others.  What I have seen is that most everyone is testing to and quoting the SAE J2807 standard but frequently only list the maximums possible.  The typical limiting factor(s) are hitch weight since it factors into payload, weight on hitch behind the drive axel transfers weight from front axel to rear and adds the weight of hitch, max tow needs drive and steering axel at rated limits, not possible without a WDH; and understeer due to front axle being lightened when weight is put on the hitch.  For many (if not most) trucks to be able to meet the maximum understeer requirement you need a WDH if you are testing to SAE J2807.  For whatever reason (probably because only feasible to test at the max and let the customer work out from there) the approach most manufactures are taking is saying 5,000/500 unless you are using a WDH and then they list their maximums.  But since there does not seem to be a requirement to publish the hitch limits or at what point you need a WDH to reach the max they so they are hard to find.  Anyone calling out for a WDH look less capable than someone who needs it but does not call it out even though both need it.  I have talked to 4 different salesmen about a truck for towing and none have known what a WDH is.  It is not a simple concept and most everyone ignores the requirement.  

 

 

 

SAE J2807

[Surf4FamFun]

14 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

I don't see how you aren't going to be possibly well over capacities on a half ton Suburban or any other half-ton-based SUV.

Suburban max towing for 2022 is right around 8k lbs.  Max payload is a little over 1600.

So if a 25LSV with fuel and 250 lbs of lead is right around 8000 at the axles, you're over your weight.  If it's only 10% on the tongue (typically it's a little more), you have a maximum of 800 lbs for the family, kids, their friends, dogs, etc.  People are heavy...

And as with above, GM usually limits you to a maximum of about 5k lbs without WDH.

https://chevroletforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php

That link is a great resource for any GM guy looking to do some towing.

Our 2021 23 MXZ is right at 8k with gas and nothing else.

[jjackkrash]

IIRC, I believe it is possible to configure 2021/22 chevy/gmc 1500 with a hitch-carrying capacity of 1250 lbs. without a WDH and get over 10K towing capacity without a WDH and still meet all the other numbers.  I don't think you can get there with anything but a truck and I also probably would not want to tow 10K with any half ton on the market even if you can get there by the book.  But that's just my personal opinion.  

[JeffK]

I agree with the last few posts. To be clear, I wasn’t considering the half ton suburban. If going GM at this point, I would only consider a converted 3/4 ton suburban. 

[shawndoggy]

9 hours ago, JeffK said:

I agree with the last few posts. To be clear, I wasn’t considering the half ton suburban. If going GM at this point, I would only consider a converted 3/4 ton suburban. 

But do the 3/4 suburbans actually have a higher towing capacity?  Wouldn't the added weight of the diesel drivetrain reduce the capacity?  Or does duraburb re-rate under SAE J2807?

Edited February 8, 2022 by shawndoggy

[JeffK]

19 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

But do the 3/4 suburbans actually have a higher towing capacity?  Wouldn't the added weight of the diesel drivetrain reduce the capacity?  Or does duraburb re-rate under SAE J2807?

The converted ones by Duramax Specialties do.  I believe he told me 12-13K in towing capacity.  I don't know what procedures he went through to get to that value, that's just what I am told.  

The older 2500's from the 90's are around 9000#'s in capacity, which matches the latest 2021-2022 Suburbans.  But the difference on those is they are an 8 lug Suburban, which has a heavier axle set.

[JeffK]

The only SUV that I am aware of that can tow at the level out of the box is the Excursion from 2002-2005, which looks like it has 11,000lbs of capacity.  I just struggle going back in time to technology from the 2018 silverado I have to something like that.  UGH!  Come on Chevy!!  Build a 3/4 ton SUV that can tow what these new toys weigh.  I'm shocked someone isn't jumping on this market with all the new toys sold in the last couple of years.

[dhcomp]

8000lb towing just isn't part of the game on a family SUV anymore.

The 25 is a big boat, and has only gotten bigger.

3/4 ton truck is the way to go, unless you go a bit older and go 3/4 ton suburban.  

 

I've got a duramax converted 2500 suburban, and love it.  But, as with any conversion, it has its minor challenges.

It won't be a new truck, but watch ebay for nice professional conversions.  With the price of new trucks, they are still a solid value.

The 2500 suburban in the 2000's was rated at 12,000lbs with the gas motors and stock drivetrain.  These are great options, and were build for the public through 2015ish.

 

The Dmax conversion just helps drivability, power, and mileage.  Many also have the Allison trans, heavier transfer case, and rear end out of the donor.

 

Example of a nice (although pricey) conversion. https://www.ebay.com/itm/115220789646?hash=item1ad3b1b98e:g:ibIAAOSwMXdh7yJg

 

 

 

 

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, JeffK said:

The only SUV that I am aware of that can tow at the level out of the box is the Excursion from 2002-2005, which looks like it has 11,000lbs of capacity.  I just struggle going back in time to technology from the 2018 silverado I have to something like that.  UGH!  Come on Chevy!!  Build a 3/4 ton SUV that can tow what these new toys weigh.  I'm shocked someone isn't jumping on this market with all the new toys sold in the last couple of years.

Excursions have 500lb tongue weight hitches.  Ask how I know...

[JeffK]

5 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Excursions have 500lb tongue weight hitches.  Ask how I know...

Uh oh....  This should be a good story.  I assume that can be upgraded though? 

I'm likely just going to end up just sticking with my 2500HD Duramax.  I just can't justify the upgrade and/or conversion costs to make any of the SUV's actually work for my situation.  The SUV would just be such a better fit for us.

Edited February 8, 2022 by JeffK

[shawndoggy]

27 minutes ago, dhcomp said:

The 2500 suburban in the 2000's was rated at 12,000lbs with the gas motors and stock drivetrain.  These are great options, and were build for the public through 2015ish.

I am pretty sure even the 2500 suburbans are 5000k limited without wdh.  

[UWSkier]

On 2/7/2022 at 7:45 PM, jjackkrash said:

IIRC, I believe it is possible to configure 2021/22 chevy/gmc 1500 with a hitch-carrying capacity of 1250 lbs. without a WDH and get over 10K towing capacity without a WDH and still meet all the other numbers.  I don't think you can get there with anything but a truck and I also probably would not want to tow 10K with any half ton on the market even if you can get there by the book.  But that's just my personal opinion.  

Not saying this is wrong, but I have been spending a lot of time researching lately due to my new TT, and I have yet to see a 1500 rated for more than 5k without WDH. 

[Cole2001]

I wouldn't expect the durmax converted suburbans to legally be able to tow anymore than what they could the day they left the factory. If that was the case I would love a hummer H1 with a new 6.6 duramax and transmission. After having all that done on paper they are still limited at 8k.