Thoughts on EV tow rigs

[dlb]

With the Rivian R1T and R1S, Ford Lightening and Silverado EV all arriving in the next year or two, it has me contemplating one of these vehicles as my tow vehicle.  The ramp we use most of the summer is 25 miles away.  Every second year we rent a lake house either 120 or 300 miles away.  The longer trips are mainly interstate but the longer one is into the hills/mountains of western NC.

I would use this as my around town vehicle.  Being retired, it will spend a lot of time enhancing my driveway.

We keep vehicles a long time.  This would replace a 2008 Yukon Denali XL when the time comes.

Are any other folks contemplating using one of these vehicles as their tow vehicle? Thoughts.

[shawndoggy]

I'm 100% totally interested in this and I firmly believe that EVs are going to play a bigger and bigger role in personal transportation.  I love love love the idea of never going to the gas station again.  I will own an electric in the forseeable future.

That being said, for me, the value proposition isn't quite there yet.  I'm thinking 5-7 years is probably going to be the sweet spot for (a) getting electric tow vehicles figured out, and (b) getting the on-the-road charging infrastructure up to snuf.  The innovation curve seems much too steep right now.  I see plenty of 2008 vehicles still on the road around me, but I don't see anybody using a 1st gen iphone.  And by the same token I don't think a petro fuel powered vehicle will be completely obsolete in 5-7 years, so it's not like you're gonna get "stuck" with a dino-burner.  

But I'm wholeheartedly in favor of someone reporting on their rivian-as-tv experience in the next couple of years!

[hunter77ah]

I’m really excited for the new Silverado Ev. Partially because of the Ev, but really because of the midgate. I bought a used avalanche as my first truck for the versatility, but I’ll admit, it’s not the best tow vehicle. 10k towing with a midgate, I’m considering an upgrade (once the mid level trims are released). 

[dlb]

25 minutes ago, hunter77ah said:

I’m really excited for the new Silverado Ev. Partially because of the Ev, but really because of the midgate. I bought a used avalanche as my first truck for the versatility, but I’ll admit, it’s not the best tow vehicle. 10k towing with a midgate, I’m considering an upgrade (once the mid level trims are released). 

You and me both.  They sold out of the high priced ones in 12 minutes.  The Marketing Department has a new task….keeping folks like you and me interested well into 2023.  Ford has doubled production and reopened orders, mine is about 199,990 out of the first 200 K and Rivian can deliver before either Ford or GM to folks like us.  It will be somewhere in mid to late 2023 before the Denali leaves the driveway.  More like 2024.  

[Bozboat]

2 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

I'm 100% totally interested in this and I firmly believe that EVs are going to play a bigger and bigger role in personal transportation.  I love love love the idea of never going to the gas station again.  I will own an electric in the forseeable future.

That being said, for me, the value proposition isn't quite there yet.  I'm thinking 5-7 years is probably going to be the sweet spot for (a) getting electric tow vehicles figured out, and (b) getting the on-the-road charging infrastructure up to snuf.  The innovation curve seems much too steep right now.  I see plenty of 2008 vehicles still on the road around me, but I don't see anybody using a 1st gen iphone.  And by the same token I don't think a petro fuel powered vehicle will be completely obsolete in 5-7 years, so it's not like you're gonna get "stuck" with a dino-burner.  

But I'm wholeheartedly in favor of someone reporting on their rivian-as-tv experience in the next couple of years!

I would love to be able to switch to electric but batteries are just not there yet.  I could see having an electric grocery runner but I’ll need another ride to drive while my EV spends 10 hours on a home charger. Yes, a supercharger would be faster but my 200 amp household service will not stretch to add a 400 amp charger.

Time management is important to me. My boating is sandwiched in between meals. (See that pun) My usual favorite lake has no food available by boat and my crew needs meat every 4-5 hours.  Adding even a couple hours charging time to my ability to haul 6k pounds of boat and cargo 200 miles roundtrip to a lake will push me past the lunch and dinner windows and that is just flat dangerous. 

 Even without the boat, EVs are not currently able to jump over to Florida (750 miles or so SE or to Breckinridge 800 ish miles NW) in 12-13 hours. Why make a 12 hour drive a 16+hour drive? My last road trip saw 21 mpg going East and 18 returning West into a 20 mph headwind. What does a 20 mph headwind due to an EV?  I do know first hand that a medium rain will cause a significant range reduction in an EV.

Another concern Is my neighborhood electric grid will not allow me to add more than a 50 amp home charger to my electric service.  The neighborhood power grid can’t keep up with my current 200 amp service at peak times as it is much less push an extra 50-80 amps to another couple dozen houses to juice up the new EVs.  
 

Don’t hate me for asking about the Elephant in the room here, but I don’t see this as an option until someone can break some of newtons laws or bust the Pythagorean Theorem. 

 

[jjackkrash]

There's lots to like about electric motors, but I am going to wait and see considering how much I love, love, love, my Duramax/Allison combo.    

[tjklein]

7 hours ago, Bozboat said:

I would love to be able to switch to electric but batteries are just not there yet.  I could see having an electric grocery runner but I’ll need another ride to drive while my EV spends 10 hours on a home charger. Yes, a supercharger would be faster but my 200 amp household service will not stretch to add a 400 amp charger.

Time management is important to me. My boating is sandwiched in between meals. (See that pun) My usual favorite lake has no food available by boat and my crew needs meat every 4-5 hours.  Adding even a couple hours charging time to my ability to haul 6k pounds of boat and cargo 200 miles roundtrip to a lake will push me past the lunch and dinner windows and that is just flat dangerous. 

 Even without the boat, EVs are not currently able to jump over to Florida (750 miles or so SE or to Breckinridge 800 ish miles NW) in 12-13 hours. Why make a 12 hour drive a 16+hour drive? My last road trip saw 21 mpg going East and 18 returning West into a 20 mph headwind. What does a 20 mph headwind due to an EV?  I do know first hand that a medium rain will cause a significant range reduction in an EV.

Another concern Is my neighborhood electric grid will not allow me to add more than a 50 amp home charger to my electric service.  The neighborhood power grid can’t keep up with my current 200 amp service at peak times as it is much less push an extra 50-80 amps to another couple dozen houses to juice up the new EVs.  
 

Don’t hate me for asking about the Elephant in the room here, but I don’t see this as an option until someone can break some of newtons laws or bust the Pythagorean Theorem. 

 

 

Completely agree with your thoughts. I'm the exact same boat.

 

I also live in Texas and seriously question how in the world the power grid is going to support the thousands and thousands of electric vehicles down here in the near future. 

[John I.]

According to my employer’s community and government relations person (i.e., lobbyist) the largest backers of legislation to initially incentivize, and now mandate, EVs are the utility companies. Increased usage = increased rates and increased dependence = increased government funds. All needed to upgrade their aging infrastructures. 

 

[shawndoggy]

9 hours ago, Bozboat said:

I would love to be able to switch to electric but batteries are just not there yet.  I could see having an electric grocery runner but I’ll need another ride to drive while my EV spends 10 hours on a home charger. Yes, a supercharger would be faster but my 200 amp household service will not stretch to add a 400 amp charger.

Time management is important to me. My boating is sandwiched in between meals. (See that pun) My usual favorite lake has no food available by boat and my crew needs meat every 4-5 hours.  Adding even a couple hours charging time to my ability to haul 6k pounds of boat and cargo 200 miles roundtrip to a lake will push me past the lunch and dinner windows and that is just flat dangerous. 

 Even without the boat, EVs are not currently able to jump over to Florida (750 miles or so SE or to Breckinridge 800 ish miles NW) in 12-13 hours. Why make a 12 hour drive a 16+hour drive? My last road trip saw 21 mpg going East and 18 returning West into a 20 mph headwind. What does a 20 mph headwind due to an EV?  I do know first hand that a medium rain will cause a significant range reduction in an EV.

Another concern Is my neighborhood electric grid will not allow me to add more than a 50 amp home charger to my electric service.  The neighborhood power grid can’t keep up with my current 200 amp service at peak times as it is much less push an extra 50-80 amps to another couple dozen houses to juice up the new EVs.  
 

Don’t hate me for asking about the Elephant in the room here, but I don’t see this as an option until someone can break some of newtons laws or bust the Pythagorean Theorem. 

 

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/ still faster than I could do it in a gasser!

But 100% agree that the long range part is what keeps me away.  I don't *think* I'd really mind 8 hour charging at home because I'd assume I'd just charge every night so it'd always be topped off.  It's not often that I arrive home from a 400 mile drive and want to turn around and do another 400 immediately.  But as you point out, that's exactly what happens on a road trip.  

Of course for me, I'm also pretty sure that 95% of my trips are under 20 miles.  I really don't *NEED* a 700 mile range (infinitely repeatable with 10 minute fillups).  But I would like to make it 600 miles and not have to stress out about how to refuel when I get there. And for a TV I need to be able to do a 200 mile round trip with 8k' of climbing (haha this is the same round trip that my Infiniti QX56 couldn't make on a 28 gallon tank without running out of gas).

Edited January 8, 2022 by shawndoggy

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, John I. said:

According to my employer’s community and government relations person (i.e., lobbyist) the largest backers of legislation to initially incentivize, and now mandate, EVs are the utility companies. Increased usage = increased rates and increased dependence = increased government funds. All needed to upgrade their aging infrastructures. 

 

There's also an environmental regulation issue.  It's WAY easier to regulate the emissions of 3400 fossil fuel electric power plants than 280M tailpipes.  AFAIK there isn't a cottage industry of DEF delete kits for power plants (ICBW -- I really don't know anything about the aftermarket for power plants).

[justgary]

9 hours ago, Bozboat said:

Even without the boat, EVs are not currently able to jump over to Florida (750 miles or so SE or to Breckenridge 800 ish miles NW) in 12-13 hours. Why make a 12 hour drive a 16+hour drive?

My few Tesla-owning friends say that turning every 15-minute fuel stop into a 45-minute battery charge means that you enjoy the drive more and arrive at your destination ready to go and do things rather than ready for a nap.  I suppose that the difference in arrival time means that you could just gas up, get there early, then take a three-hour power nap and be ready to go at the same time that you would be arriving in a Tesla.  Of course, the Tesla gang uses those superchargers, so other EVs may not charge nearly as quickly.

As for towing, you aren't going more than about 100-150 miles in an EV between charges if you are towing something.  That's the deal breaker for me.

[shawndoggy]

4 minutes ago, justgary said:

My few Tesla-owning friends say that turning every 15-minute fuel stop into a 45-minute battery charge means that you enjoy the drive more and arrive at your destination ready to go and do things rather than ready for a nap.  I suppose that the difference in arrival time means that you could just gas up, get there early, then take a three-hour power nap and be ready to go at the same time that you would be arriving in a Tesla.  Of course, the Tesla gang uses those superchargers, so other EVs may not charge nearly as quickly.

As for towing, you aren't going more than about 100-150 miles in an EV between charges if you are towing something.  That's the deal breaker for me.

I have a friend who bought a model 3 last year and then promptly took it on a ski trip to Utah and Wyoming.  I asked about charging, and it seemed like it worked out OK, but was definitely slower (Reno to SLC is 520 miles).  On the way out they went halfway and fully recharged.  He said that stop took over an hour.  On the way back they just did partial recharges... something about getting to 50% in 15 minutes and then it taking another 45 min for the last 50%?  Sounds like that way was a little bit faster (maybe 15 or 20 min).  Still slower than an ice vehicle, but he wasn't complaining about it (of course he also just dropped big bucks and is predisposed to justify the spend).

He drove me to a local mtb ride in the tesla last fall (60 miles away) and the car was very quick and composed even with two bikes on top.  Yuge upgrade over his old 2003 Ford Escape!

[Bozboat]

4 hours ago, John I. said:

According to my employer’s community and government relations person (i.e., lobbyist) the largest backers of legislation to initially incentivize, and now mandate, EVs are the utility companies. Increased usage = increased rates and increased dependence = increased government funds. All needed to upgrade their aging infrastructures. 

 

 

The Texas Power Grid definitely needs a do over. The one we have is third world at best. Since last February’s failure,  I can count 15 or so new neighborhoods within a 15 mile circle from here. It is easy to say beef up the infrastructure but I thinking that any meaningful upgrade is going to require 8-10 new nuclear power plants and a new set of power lines and transformers just to manage the growth.  

My house had a 200 amp service that is pretty much zapped by my existing load. What do I need to do to add an 80 amp Ford Home Charger?  Or do most EV adopters use the central super chargers?

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Bozboat

[shawndoggy]

2 minutes ago, Bozboat said:

 

The Texas Power Grid definitely needs a do over. The one we have is third world at best. Since last February’s failure,  I can count 15 or so new neighborhoods within a 15 mile circle from here. It is easy to say beef up the infrastructure but I thinking that any meaningful upgrade is going to require 8-10 new nuclear power plants and a new set of power lines and transformers just to manage the growth.  

My house had a 200 amp service that is pretty much zapped but my existing load. What do I need to do to add an 80 amp Ford Home Charger?  Or do most EV adopters use the central super chargers?

 

 

Are any folks in your area going solar / onsite storage for off-grid reliability (i.e. Tesla power wall style)?  That's another strategy that interests me... in the future.

[Bozboat]

35 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Are any folks in your area going solar / onsite storage for off-grid reliability (i.e. Tesla power wall style)?  That's another strategy that interests me... in the future.

Yes, I can see houses with solar panels but no one I know has that set up. I looked at the Tesla power wall a few years ago. It would be a excellent choice for a California climate. I would have one here if I could make it work.
 

The drawback here is the need to run large a/c units/heat pumps to stay alive.  Four power walls would get me over most outages but one or two won’t help much.   Something about the power requirements to start up a five ton a/c makes this difficult here.   Maybe the house HVAC system should be split up into those mini split systems instead of large central units.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Bozboat

[hethj7]

So for those here, what is the appeal of an EV?   I'm just curious.   I'm basically in the energy business and no doubt the world is headed towards perceived (?) cleaner solutions, but I'm curious of the folks here.    I'm interested in an EV just for the cool factor, even priced out a Tesla a few years ago as my next ride.   But from practical terms, why go EV at this point?   Unless it is a push to be a first adopter for the cool factor or the environmental benefits, why do folks want to be on the bleeding edge of this movement?  I think generally younger folks like the green aspect of them, but I'm not sure they are willing, nor have the means (?), to pay for those benefits right now.   

 

 

[ThinBuLine]

17 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

So for those here, what is the appeal of an EV?   I'm just curious.   I'm basically in the energy business and no doubt the world is headed towards perceived (?) cleaner solutions, but I'm curious of the folks here.    I'm interested in an EV just for the cool factor, even priced out a Tesla a few years ago as my next ride.   But from practical terms, why go EV at this point?   Unless it is a push to be a first adopter for the cool factor or the environmental benefits, why do folks want to be on the bleeding edge of this movement?  I think generally younger folks like the green aspect of them, but I'm not sure they are willing, nor have the means (?), to pay for those benefits right now.   

 

 

I own a Tesla, wife’s car. She commutes 2 days a week 80 miles round trip and gets to use the carpool lane solo (la traffic blessing).

best car I’ve ever owned. Only maintenance is tire rotations, she never has to go to a gas station, we have solar so we charge it with our panels, we have the truck for road-trips so range isn’t a factor and it’s got a full charge of 300 miles every night if we do decide to go for a day trip somewhere. 
 

it’s quiet, comfortable, tons of room and did I mention I don’t have to do any oil changes, transmission or diff services?

 

 

[Steve B.]

They appeal to me for a lot of reasons. Instant power. Quiet. In theory the power could come entirely from a renewable source (way in the future), so many less moving parts, the jobs they could employ in producing them here and the technology that is intertwined with them. Battery technology is still in infancy. Someday just like hard drives, a little and easily and quickly charged battery will power a vehicle way beyond what a gas tank will get. 

Electric vehicles have been around since the late 1800's, so this is really a return and investment in something not new.

Steve B.

[dlb]

The appeal is no gas, oil and other maintenance associated with ICE.  I have one ICE vehicle, no need in my world for another one.  When I replace my current roof, I will put solar on/in it.  Battery wall, EV and I will be much more self sufficient than I am today.  I like that idea.  I worked in R&D so I like the idea of the new technology.  In my working life, new to the market was 5-10 years or more after it was new to me.

[ThinBuLine]

The only practical way to get around the long charging times with current technology is to have quickly removable battery packs and swap them out at service stations to “fill up” when your charge is low. I love the Tesla we have but I’ll never have strictly an electric car without having a fossil fuel vehicle in my fleet. 

[hethj7]

3 minutes ago, ThinBuLine said:

The only practical way to get around the long charging times with current technology is to have quickly removable battery packs and swap them out at service stations to “fill up” when your charge is low. I love the Tesla we have but I’ll never have strictly an electric car without having a fossil fuel vehicle in my fleet. 

I often think this too.   It would be nice if manufacturers could standardize on a few battery sizes (think how forklifts have done for years), but realize they are probably not incentivized to do so.   

[RyanB]

I will be a late adopter in this.  We do multiple 1000 mile round trips with the boat, and there is no way I'd be willing to make those trips longer by waiting extra hours to charge vs a 10 minute stop to fill the truck up.

And even for not towing, I have limited interest.  Last week we headed into the mountains to go away for the weekend.  We were 250 miles away from home when we got the pre-evacuation notices due to the fires.  We turned around and drove 250 miles back without stopping.  I'd have hated to need to look for a place to charge at a time like that (not to mention a lot of the power grid was down due the high winds and the fire).

 

[hethj7]

@Bozboat I assume your were overstating TX issues.  Have you been to a 3rd world country? 🤪

[jjackkrash]

41 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

@Bozboat I assume your were overstating TX issues.  Have you been to a 3rd world country? 🤪

Mississippi?

[shawndoggy]

6 hours ago, Bozboat said:

Yes, I can see houses with solar panels but no one I know has that set up. I looked at the Tesla power wall a few years ago. It would be a excellent choice for a California climate. I would have one here if I could make it work.
 

The drawback here is the need to run large a/c units/heat pumps to stay alive.  Four power walls would get me over most outages but one or two won’t help much.   Something about the power requirements to start up a five ton a/c makes this difficult here.   Maybe the house HVAC system should be split up into those mini split systems instead of large central units.

I've heard the argument that once you get a critical mass of folks with local storage (i.e. powerwall) that it takes a lot of demand off the grid because the local battery can act as a capacitor of sorts for the system... as in the grid pushes power out overnight or during periods of lower demand, topping off local storage, and as demand peaks users will draw down on their local battery to supplement the grid.

Actually, it looks like if you get the 80a home charger for a Lighting, you can even use the truck as a powerwall. https://insideevs.com/news/508802/ford-f150-lightning-outlets-backup/

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by shawndoggy