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Lithium Ion Battery


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If this is an old topic my apologies in advance, I searched and couldn’t come up with anything.  
 

Is anyone using a Lithium Ion battery for your stereo if so what brand?  What kind of power is your system pulling, how many AH is your battery and how does it perform?  Does your alternator charge it without damaging the battery?

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1 hour ago, Maliboob said:

If this is an old topic my apologies in advance, I searched and couldn’t come up with anything.  
 

Is anyone using a Lithium Ion battery for your stereo if so what brand?  What kind of power is your system pulling, how many AH is your battery and how does it perform?  Does your alternator charge it without damaging the battery?

At about four times the cost of lead acid for the same capacity and a need for constant voltage, constant current charging, I can't see why anyone would bother.  But I'll hang around to see if anybody responds, because you never know....

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52 minutes ago, justgary said:

At about four times the cost of lead acid for the same capacity and a need for constant voltage, constant current charging, I can't see why anyone would bother.  But I'll hang around to see if anybody responds, because you never know....

Agreed, but the only advantage I see is you can run a lithium battery 100% dead and cause only minor damage. Obviously it’s better for the battery not to, but that’s the only advantage I see. 

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42 minutes ago, dwc032 said:

Agreed, but the only advantage I see is you can run a lithium battery 100% dead and cause only minor damage. Obviously it’s better for the battery not to, but that’s the only advantage I see. 

True.  Lead-acid batteries live for about 250 full discharge cycles, or more if the discharge isn't complete.  Li-ion batteries live for about 1,000 full discharge cycles, or more if the discharge isn't complete.  In that respect, they may be worth the extra cost.  The charging profile could be handled by a DC-DC converter and charge controller.

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28 minutes ago, Steve B. said:

I wonder what the weight differences are between similar current/amp hours.

Steve B.

It looks like Lithium-Iron-Phosphate is maybe a better choice than Lithium Ion.  A 100 AH 12v Li-Fe-PO4 battery weighs 26 pounds.  They claim 4,000 charge cycles.  $800.

https://www.renogy.com/12v-100ah-smart-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw8IaGBhCHARIsAGIRRYoTNWNehVBbcVufggt4-a9kGYpzKK4N5ui4Xh5cSlMyNC4eMZzsj-4aAnf6EALw_wcB

Same company, 100 AH hybrid gel cell 12v deep cycle lead-acid battery is 63.9 pounds.  $225.

https://www.renogy.com/deep-cycle-hybrid-gel-battery-12-volt-100ah/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw8IaGBhCHARIsAGIRRYrpVAgYFRvqnOmuAHIFwvzjTVRDwRKShi89ctHcg-wb-rJQrYprrCoaAudIEALw_wcB

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21 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Lithium ion with cobalt oxide cathodes are the densest energy chemistries. That’s are portable products mostly. They’re fire hazards because they self fuel with oxygen when it liberates during the exothermic reaction from a failure. It’s also exothermic enough that it ignites the oxygen. Those are the videos you see on tv and the news. 

lithium Ion with phosphate cathodes liberate a different gas mix with much higher ignition temperature. So they’re safer and popular with motiv applications. They are less energy dense however. These were the cells we designed into the Segways, Wheelchairs, and early automotive applications.  They are generally a little higher voltage per cell typically. And when they do vent it smells a lot like strawberry soda.  

Lithium Iron Phosphate is lower energy still but safer. Generally lower voltage per cell typically. 

If you do not have a charger MATCHED to the exact cell chemistry of that manufacturer of cells, then don’t screw around. If you do not have a battery rated for automotive shock and vibe do not screw around. Large format Lithium Ion batteries are bombs. I have been around too many factory accidents producing those things to take them lightly. Even the safer chemistries can ignite in the right circumstances. Go look up the Fisker Karma fire that happened from some plate welds not being done properly and/or coming loose. 

Go get good VRLA batteries. Lots cheaper. More forgiving. And no failures by exothermic combustion. 

I have PTSD about Li+ batteries. Don’t be like Slurpee. Leave it to the vehicle manufacturers. 

Thanks Slurpee.  You seem very knowledgeable in regards to batteries and I appreciate your input.  In your opinion are Optima batteries worth the price or do you recommend something else?  I’ve had good luck with Interstate in the past but wandering if the Optimas are worth the extra few bucks? 

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10 minutes ago, Maliboob said:

Thanks Slurpee.  You seem very knowledgeable in regards to batteries and I appreciate your input.  In your opinion are Optima batteries worth the price or do you recommend something else?  I’ve had good luck with Interstate in the past but wandering if the Optimas are worth the extra few bucks? 

Optima was a big deal a long time ago when they were new and it was earned. But I quickly had a lot of bad experience with them giving out too soon as the years went by. Not worth it for marine is my two cents. ymmv.  There are better batteries out there. Ask for @COOPor @MLA to chime in on what they install. Or you can search the forum. I’ve seen lots of threads with great info over the years. Just please don’t do Li+ Unless you’re an electrical engineer or skilled technician familiar with them. The large format batteries often don’t even have management systems internally. They pig tail a connector for a dedicated BMS to monitor and balance. That means minimum safety circuitry. 

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Also thanks Slurpee, that was cool. Lithium variants have lots of power potential and potential volatility too evidently.

My hope on the other side is things like electric motors increase power while consuming less. LED level draw, but hundreds of horsepower out !

Thousand miles on a charge.

Steve B.

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When shopping for a house battery, its all about the amp hours. So comparing is fairly straight forward. Compare the same group size between brands. Look at their rated Ah compared to the dollar. You will find the colored topped AGM have some of the lower Ah to $$$ ratio in the field. So, they have a very low value compared to other AGM. 

Same applies for lead acid wet cell.

Im not sold on Li-On in boats for a house bank just yet. A) they require their own charger. B) they seem to be best suited when completely isolated from a LAWC or AGM cranking bank. As in a stand-alone. This means, as soon as you leave the dock, your house loads are drawing down the house bank, with no contribution from the alternator. This means you need a sizable bank to last the day, then a charger to get you back to 100% by morning. 

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11 hours ago, Steve B. said:

I wonder what the weight differences are between similar current/amp hours.

Steve B.

LiPo batteries are super light, I run them in all my motorcycles. (Shorai)  More CCA in about 1/2 the physical size.

I think they only make powersport sized batteries though

https://shoraipower.com/en/

Edited by oldjeep
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2 hours ago, oldjeep said:

LiPo batteries are super light, I run them in all my motorcycles. (Shorai)  More CCA in about 1/2 the physical size.

I think they only make powersport sized batteries though

https://shoraipower.com/en/

Those have a built-in charger so that they can hook directly to the motorcycle's power bus and utilize the alternator's output.  Note that they also recommend using the external charger that plugs into the battery and balances each cell.  I would suspect that the internal charger balances also, since charging lithium batteries in series can get you big trouble (and @Slurpee's PTSD) very quickly if it is not actively managed.

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Just now, justgary said:

Those have a built-in charger so that they can hook directly to the motorcycle's power bus and utilize the alternator's output.  Note that they also recommend using the external charger that plugs into the battery and balances each cell.  I would suspect that the internal charger balances also, since charging lithium batteries in series can get you big trouble (and @Slurpee's PTSD) very quickly if it is not actively managed.

In the off season I leave them on battery tender Jr's - they work with any basic battery charger as long as it isn't a "smart" one with a desulfator feature.

 

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1 minute ago, oldjeep said:

In the off season I leave them on battery tender Jr's - they work with any basic battery charger as long as it isn't a "smart" one with a desulfator feature.

 

That makes sense.  I suppose the external charger is mostly useful if you want to help manage the battery by watching state of charge for each cell.  You can't really do anything about it if you do notice a problem, so letting the internal charger handle everything makes sense.

My understanding is that lithium batteries tend to have very low self discharge rates and don't really care about state of charge during storage, but they don't particularly like staying crammed full of energy.  It might be better to just let them sit over the winter and give them a charge just before your riding season begins again.  @Slurpee might have more insight for us about charge level and storage.

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Just now, justgary said:

That makes sense.  I suppose the external charger is mostly useful if you want to help manage the battery by watching state of charge for each cell.  You can't really do anything about it if you do notice a problem, so letting the internal charger handle everything makes sense.

My understanding is that lithium batteries tend to have very low self discharge rates and don't really care about state of charge during storage, but they don't particularly like staying crammed full of energy.  It might be better to just let them sit over the winter and give them a charge just before your riding season begins again.  @Slurpee might have more insight for us about charge level and storage.

LiPo batteries are pretty much junk if you let them get much below 13 volts, so you need to keep them charged.  They don't self discharge as bad as Lead Acid, but modern bikes always have some small drain on the battery.  Haven't had any issues so far, and this is how everyone I know stores them.

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martinarcher

I'm a big fan of Interstate and Deka deep cycles for house batteries.  No fire issues to keep Slurpee or myself up at night and they last far longer than other batteries I have tried when trying to save a few $$.  IMO cheap batteries usually end up costing me more because they simply don't last.  

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On 6/11/2021 at 9:26 AM, martinarcher said:

I'm a big fan of Interstate and Deka deep cycles for house batteries.  No fire issues to keep Slurpee or myself up at night and they last far longer than other batteries I have tried when trying to save a few $$.  IMO cheap batteries usually end up costing me more because they simply don't last.  

Any experience with Weize batteries?  
 

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martinarcher
29 minutes ago, Maliboob said:

Any experience with Weize batteries?  
 

Nope, haven't tried them.  They are AGMs and with my past experience with yellow/red top Optimas I don't think I'll try and AGM battery again.  

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granddaddy55
On 6/11/2021 at 8:26 AM, martinarcher said:

I'm a big fan of Interstate and Deka deep cycles for house batteries.  No fire issues to keep Slurpee or myself up at night and they last far longer than other batteries I have tried when trying to save a few $$.  IMO cheap batteries usually end up costing me more because they simply don't last.  

is a single 31 interstate deep cycle enough for quite a few hours at anchor?.  i currently have to regular interstate 27’s and need much better performance from house when it is stand alone or combined

it would be nice if it could cause i think 31’s fit in same box as 27 just taller i think

i get great prices straight from the interstate distributor

Edited by granddaddy55
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martinarcher

https://www.interstatebatteries.com/recreation-vehicles/rv-batteries/deep-cycle

 

The 31 Interstate has 131% reserve capacity of the 27 size.  See column "RC" in link above.  That is listed in minutes @ 25 amps. 

 

So if you're getting 160 minutes out of a single 27, you can expect to get 210 minutes out of a 31.  

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Having come from the battery world and with several lithium conversions in RVs under my belt I too have been very curious about using a lithium battery to power the stereo that I am currently planning and working to install in my boat. I am still working through some of the details surrounding the specific components I will use to comprise the stereo system but I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a lithium battery and charger. This was after having made some loose calculations to ensure a more than adequate run time and proper matching to capabilities of the battery versus stereo demand.

What I went with is a 12.8V 200Ah lithium battery and 25A charger from ElectroVolt. I chose them in part due to their 12 year warranty and knowledgeable staff. 

https://vpwllc.com/12v-deep-cycle-batteries/ 

 

My plan is to retain the lead acid battery for everything related to the engine; starting, motor trim, etc. and run all remaining electronics direct to the lithium battery. I will begin by installing the lithium battery and running a 2000W mono amp (542W x1 @ 2ohm CEA rating) and the head unit to it. From there I will move on to changing the 12V outlet, USB outlet, and depth/fish finder over to the lithium battery before moving on to installing some under dash and under seat lighting. Charging for now will be handled back at home with the 25A charger also purchased from Electrovolt. I opted to go this route as opposed to wiring an onboard DC to DC converter because we spend far more time on the lakes and rivers with the engine off than on.

 

I myself have also struggled to find anyone who has posted about such a setup but I know that it will work and actually work quite well compared to a deep cycle battery. One of the primary draws of lithium for most is their flat discharge curve and their ability to be discharged to 100% capacity without damage. What this means to me for the stereo install is that operation will remain consistent throughout discharge of the battery with voltage staying higher than it would with a lead acid counterpart. This in turn means high efficiency and lower current.

 

I'm really excited to work my way through this project and will be sure to post details and pictures as I progress through the install.

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