Jump to content

Welcome to TheMalibuCrew!

As a guest, you are welcome to poke around and view the majority of the content that we have to offer, but in order to post, search, contact members, and get full use out of the website you will need to Register for an Account. It's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the TheMalibuCrew Family today!

2005 23 LSV Stereo Plan and Build


GasBill

Recommended Posts

Hello everyone,

Background

I'm a long time reader, but this is my first time posting. I plan to document the build in this thread as well as ask some questions along way.

- This will be my third boat audio install, and I have probably read 95% of the threads on this forum that involve stereo builds and equipment choice.

- I don't want/need the loudest on the lake, but I want a nicely tuned system that I can hear while underway and at wake distance. I want the comments to be "that sounds great" not "I can't feel my ear drums anymore.." We do a good mix of cruising, towing, and hanging at the sandbar.

- I purchased the boat this summer with the equipment below and want to reuse as much as I can for budget reasons, but don't mind tossing a few hundred dollars in strategic places in the build if there is lots to be gained.

- The boat is sadly in storage for the winter, so the "building" will take place in the early spring.

- I decided to redo the system for 2 reasons. First, I felt the previous system was just "OK" and could be so much better. Second, while removing the batteries for the winter I uncovered an absolute rats' nest of wire.. AND accidentally dislodged a main power cable to one of the amps by lightly bumping it with my elbow.. AND the amps bypassed the perko.. AND were grounded to different batteries.. AND.. you get the idea.. I felt this was a safety hazard and proceeded to the current state of the boat.

- Currently, I have since removed the remains of 2 separate prior aftermarket installs, a mess of battery switch wires, and a about a mile of unused RCA cables and speaker wire. I can go into the details if people are interested in hearing about it, but basically the deeper I went the worse it got. I am starting with a "clean slate" in terms of battery banks and stereo. I sadly do not have any pics of the "before"..

Current Equipment

In boats:

- 4x JL MX650 (bow and cabin)

- 2x Sony XS-V1640H (dash) 75W RMS 4ohm

- Powered by a JL M600/6

Tower:

- 2 REV10's

- Powered by an Arc KS600.2

Sub:

- JL 12" w0v3 in a pre fab carpeted MDF box in the observer's compartment (probably the worst combo ever from what I have read on here lol)

- Powered by a JL M2250

Control:

- WS 420BT

- Sony head unit with transom controller

Other Available Equipment:

- Rockville RXMT2 400W x2 @ 4ohms / 600W x2 @ 2ohms

- 4x Rockville RMSTS80W 8" speakers, 250W RMS

Initial Questions

I want to drill down on component selection first. 

1. The system was wired such that only 4 channels were used by running 2 pairs in parallel. (I didn't bother tracing wires to determine which pairs..) The result was surprisingly quite.. blah. Will I have enough power/SQ with my current setup if properly powered and wired? I am not opposed to using 8" speakers in the cabin or adding a pair somewhere else if there is a lot to gain. More on wiring below.

2. I plan to wire one speaker per channel, Should I use RCA splitters to go from the 2 output channels on the WS420BT to the M600/6 so I can adjust gain independently in bow, cabin, and dash? If this is not a useful thing to do/not correct, I will just run 2 inputs and flip the "switch" on the amp to a 2 channel input mode. I have the splitters available from the "purge."

3. I plan to relocate the sub under the helm for obvious reasons and also plan to build a box. Is it worth building a box for the w0, or will I "outgrow" that sub? I was thinking about building a sealed box or rehab the current box for the w0 at first for simplicity, and if it was not enough I'd source a used w3 or w6 (and amp) and build a proper ported enclosure. I don't want to waste time and material on a box for the w0 to just immediately replace it.

4. I know the Arc KS600.2 is one of the choice amps for the REV10's, but: Would the Rockville amp work as well? If yes, I'd sell the Arc and use the money toward other components.

I'll leave it here for now for the sake of not dragging this post on longer than it already is. Once I decide on components I'll do up a wiring diagram and share my thoughts/desires then. Most of what I don't use will be saved for a future Frankenstein garage audio build.

Thank you for your time, I'm excited to get the wheels turning on this project!

Link to post

Rewiring the power side so that you don't burn down the boat is a good first step.  If you don't have this part maximized already, now is a perfect time to do so.

1/0ga from battery to fused distribution blocks.  4ga to amps.  No need to run through switch.  Make sure all wiring is tinned marine wire.  (Stinger)

The new Kicker version of Blue Sea terminal blocks looks pretty cool.  I plan to use them on the next system I do.

https://www.kicker.com/marine-master-fuse-holder,  https://www.kicker.com/marine-fused-distribution-block,  https://www.kicker.com/marine-ground-distribution-block

Having the RCA's and speakers hooked up to each individual channel will provide more control but less volume.  I've always been happier bridging four amp channels for each pair of drivers.  Pretty hard to clip a system that way.

So with the existing equipment, I'd chuck the sony dash speakers in the bin and move the JL's up there.  Then put the 8's in the back.

Run the front's from two channels of the Arc amp, run the dash from the other Arc channels, bridged, run the new 8's from the Rockville amp.  Yes, yer gonna need a new amp rack.

Link to post

1). Yes, make use of all 6 amp chnls for the existing 3 pair, or even if you added a 4th pair. No issue upgrading some to 8" and still using the current 6 chnl amp. Adding more speakers is the most efficient way to gain volume. 

2) That 6 chnl amp can power all 6 chnls with just one 2-chnl RCA. No need for splitters. The amp has 3 gain dials on the output side, so the number of RCA used on the input side makes no difference to setting gain. 

3), This really depends on your bass expectations. Id build a ported enclosure and make sure you go with an amp that can supply an RMS that exceeds the woofers RMS. The ported enclosure will yield greater output compared to a sealed, and the extra available wattage means the system is going to run at a conservative pace. 

4) Id keep the current 2 chnl amp driving the tower setup. I dont trust any advertised specs from that other brand. 

Above all, proper cable gauge and circuit protection is a must. Im a fan of wiring my amp B+ through the main battery switch output. This allows the amps to be disconnected from the battery(s) when the boat is not in use. It also allows you to chose which bank you want the house loads to draw from.  

Link to post

Thank you for the responses,

After re reading the manual for the M600/6, I misinterpreted how the input switch distributes signal and will use the 2 channel mode. It was previously wired with a splitter as well as 2 pairs wired to 2 channels as a 2 ohm load, so hopefully this gives me the volume/clarity these speakers are known for! I'll start there and see how it sounds before adding anything. If I do, I'll consider what robtr8 said and move the sony's to the can, put the cabin JL's in the dash, and some 8's in the cabin. Is it worth the effort to move a pair of the MX650's to the dash? I assume this is where most of the sound comes from in the cabin.

The manual for the w0 sub calls for one of those tube ports. I'm not sure I can get a slot port small enough, so I'll use the manual's recommendation for a ported box. I'll see if I can get over and measure the space under the helm in the next week.

MLA, I figured that was going to be the answer to that question, I'll keep the Arc amp for the towers. 

I'm trying to upload pictures, so hopefully tomorrow I'll figure it out so I can post my wiring diagram.

Link to post

Here's my first try at a picture. This is what I came up with so far for the wiring. For now, I hope to use the head unit's USB input for music to keep the transom remote functional with the option of the WS420BT for bluetooth. I can always ditch the head unit later. A couple points/questions:

1. I've read that if I plan to power more than 2-3 devices from the remote turn on lead from the head unit I should us a solenoid switch. This also ensures the power and ground are shared with the amps. Is this a waste of time?

2. My hope was to use the head unit to turn the amps on. Currently, like others have pointed out, the music stops when the key is turned off. I saw a post on Wake Garage about adding a delay relay to keep power to the head unit on long enough to restart the boat/turn the key to ACC. Is this a dumb idea? I notice now that the power for the WS420BT is not shared with the amps. This may be a reason to just add a switch under the dash.

3. I planned for a fuse block because I may be adding LED's later. :whistle:

4. What gauge wire/what wire brands are people using for speaker wire? I have bundles of 4awg tinned OFC wire and random speaker wire from the purge. Along with an unused XM antenna that was wedged behind the seats! :Frustrated:

Let me know where I may be missing something!

kXIK42u.jpg

ya9zEIH.jpg

*edit for pics

Edited by GasBill
Link to post

1) noise from the turn-on circuit is not an issue, but excessive loads are. A relay prevents the circuit from blowing inside the head unit. 

2) yes, use the head's turn-on to wake up the amps. However, this is a separate item form the head unit's switched IGN circuit coming through the key switch. Me, I prefer to use a helm rocker to turn the head on, rather then a delay relay. Turn the key off if you want, tunes keep playing till you flip the rocker off. This is also a separate scenario fron where the EQ gets its B+ and B-. All the audio has to share the same battery reference, switch or no switch. Your current head unit wiring is likely going to lead to unwanted noise

3)  While great for adding extra accessories, unless you are planning on multiple groups if individually switched lights, you dont need multiple fuses. A single fused switch will control an entire boat of LED mood lights. Speaker rings, cupholders, bilge vents, etc. 

 

Link to post

Got some time to think about this, here is what I came up with:

dX7XNhH.jpg

This would make the head unit on when the batteries are on which I'm not super thrilled about. Can I run the power (red) from head unit through the switch for the rem (blue) wires? I was struggling to come up with a way to wire everything on/off with one switch from one power/ground source. I like having everything on/off with a switch.

For the sub,  2 things:

1. From what I am reading on the site, sub placement in the observer's compartment can cause -3dB to -6dB. It was fired toward the hull (+3dB?), so possibly the SPL level is a wash compared to what it would be in the open cabin. Of course at the expense of SQ. I bring this up because the output of the sub in the previous orientation was not enough for what I was hoping for and I felt I was driving it fairly hard. I did not check the tune on the amp, but the "sub" dial on the 420 was up fairly high and the "boat/tower" was turned down some to balance the music. I am leaning toward "do it once the right way" instead of twice. Is a ported JL 12w3 enough or should I be looking for a 12w6? 

2. I have read some threads on which direction to fire the sub/port. In my first install (as cheap as possible.. boat included :lol:) I fired a sealed 10" sub toward the side of the boat and noticed an increase in volume vs into the boat. I now understand that this may have introduced a phase issue by delaying the sound slightly. Based on some initial models, it is cleaner to build a box/kick panel to fire the sub into the cabin and the port into the side of the boat. Is there an advantage/disadvantage to this orientation? I got the idea from this thread:

As a bored engineer, I really enjoy the details involved in building these systems and have discovered WinISD. At some point I will ask some questions about box tuning so if anyone has advice, I'm very open to suggestions.

Link to post

Cant blow the schematics up, so its hard to tell what all you got going on with the head unit and EQ's power harnesses. it also seems you are not clear on what the head unit's red and yellow circuit do. Yellow is actually what you refer to as "power" and the red is just an IGN turn-on. 

54 minutes ago, GasBill said:

I was struggling to come up with a way to wire everything on/off with one switch from one power/ground source. I like having everything on/off with a switch.

Are you referring to a main battery switch or helm rocker? The head unit can "wake" the entire system up. As noted, it already makes use of a switch ignition (IGN) circuit. 

As to the woofer performance. Your current amp is delivering 250W rms, so that makes it a perfect power match to the current woofer. This is a very mild setup. However, upgrading to a woofer in a power handling class thats 2-4 times the power handling of the current woofer, you would not get a return on your investment, unless you also upgraded the amp wattage. With that said, going from a sealed enclosure to a ported enclosure, is going to greatly increase the output, with no equipment costs. This does not even touch on what could also have been a poorly tuned setup, including the wrong volume enclosure or one that was deteriorating. 

Link to post

With system turn on/off you want to guard against turn on/off thump.  To do this, the HU must wake up and shut off the amps.  So you shouldn't switch everything on/off with one switch.

Power (yellow) the HU from the Perko.

Switch the HU ignition (red) from the dash rocker.

Grounds all lead back to battery to minimize ground loop.

Turn on the amps (blue) with the HU's amp turn on lead.

So it will be Perko, rocker, HU when you enter.  HU, rocker, Perko when you leave.  Give the HU a tick before hitting the rocker off.  Gotta let it do it's thing.

 

You may find it difficult to package the 12" round woofer and a properly ported enclosure under the dash.

I'm sure you have more room in the LSV than I had under the RLXi but:

You may want to look at doing a 2 Ohm DVC Kicker L7T in a ported enclosure.  Square subs maximize surface area vs total volume.

I had Pete design a box for my L5.  Gave him the driver and the maximum outer dimensions.

PWK Designs sub-box.jpg

07.png.jpg

Link to post

Ah yes, I definitely did not understand the red/yellow wires. Thank you both for making that clear, it makes a ton more sense now so disregard the questions about head unit wiring above.

MLA,

I was referring to the helm rocker, but now that I understand what those wires do I realize my question does not make sense.

I forgot to mention a sub upgrade would come with an amp upgrade to match. I really appreciate you being honest and not just telling me to upgrade. For the cost of MDF and epoxy or poly resin (left over from a previous disaster) I think I'll take your suggestion and run what I have before spending money.

robtr8,

Based on some rough measurements I believe I have 25" x 19" x 17" (W x H x D) to work with or 25" x 19" x 10" without losing legroom. These measurements are for a standard rectangular box, and there is a lot of room to gain if I want to get creative with the shape. I do have a heater and want to integrate the hot tubes into the face of the new kick plate.

These are the 2 basic designs I'm talking about. They are actually built to a ported 12w3 spec, but the 12w0 is very similar.

p45WmK2.png

GzsjwTM.png

The question now is port placement: toward the hull or aligned with the woofer into the cabin. If I have some time over the holiday weekend I'll fab up a carboard model and see how it fits.

Link to post
44 minutes ago, GasBill said:

Ah yes, I definitely did not understand the red/yellow wires. Thank you both for making that clear, it makes a ton more sense now so disregard the questions about head unit wiring above.

MLA,

I was referring to the helm rocker, but now that I understand what those wires do I realize my question does not make sense.

I forgot to mention a sub upgrade would come with an amp upgrade to match. I really appreciate you being honest and not just telling me to upgrade. For the cost of MDF and epoxy or poly resin (left over from a previous disaster) I think I'll take your suggestion and run what I have before spending money.

robtr8,

Based on some rough measurements I believe I have 25" x 19" x 17" (W x H x D) to work with or 25" x 19" x 10" without losing legroom. These measurements are for a standard rectangular box, and there is a lot of room to gain if I want to get creative with the shape. I do have a heater and want to integrate the hot tubes into the face of the new kick plate.

These are the 2 basic designs I'm talking about. They are actually built to a ported 12w3 spec, but the 12w0 is very similar.

p45WmK2.png

GzsjwTM.png

The question now is port placement: toward the hull or aligned with the woofer into the cabin. If I have some time over the holiday weekend I'll fab up a carboard model and see how it fits.

I’m curious about the differences between hull and cabin porting. The 2 biggest builds I know of have hull porting! Bryan Guy and Danny Pacini

Link to post

My first choice is to have the woofer and port going the same direction. In the 2nd design, you could put the woofer on the same side as the port, (may need to tweak the dimensions a little) and have both boundary load off the hull. But, id want to funnel the output to the cabin, rather then wall it off with a façade that seals off against the hull. 

Link to post

Hope everyone had a great holiday!

If I understood this correctly, this wire diagram should be correct. I'm undecided about running the yellow wire to the perko or directly to battery 2. It will depend on what I preset in the head unit..

jKw1jxa.jpg

For the sub box, I think I am going to side fire the driver and the port to hopefully squeeze as much out of it as MLA suggested.

n6pzwMs.png

For the kick plate, I thinking something like this:

xNikNFB.png

I will leave the right side open for the sub to project into the cabin. Thoughts on this? I will mock this sized box up in cardboard and attempt to remove the current kickplate if no one sees any obvious issues. I also plan on spacing the box 1" off the floor for ventilation and screwing it to the floor.

Link to post
10 minutes ago, GasBill said:

Hope everyone had a great holiday!

If I understood this correctly, this wire diagram should be correct. I'm undecided about running the yellow wire to the perko or directly to battery 2. It will depend on what I preset in the head unit..

jKw1jxa.jpg

For the sub box, I think I am going to side fire the driver and the port to hopefully squeeze as much out of it as MLA suggested.

n6pzwMs.png

For the kick plate, I thinking something like this:

xNikNFB.png

I will leave the right side open for the sub to project into the cabin. Thoughts on this? I will mock this sized box up in cardboard and attempt to remove the current kickplate if no one sees any obvious issues. I also plan on spacing the box 1" off the floor for ventilation and screwing it to the floor.

Building out of birch I presume? Awesome design. Might build side firing boxes for the new boat! 

Link to post

Brandonloos21, I'm not 100% sure yet. The one I built for project "El Cheapo" was plywood coated in oil based paint. For this one I'm leaning toward MDF coated in resin. I have a lot of polyester resin, epoxy resin, penetrating epoxy, and fiberglass mat and cloth from a prior boat floor replacement and I was thinking about coating the box in some of that. I know MDF is horrible with water, but it seems really easy to work with. I've seen people use a bed liner and I really like that look as well.

Anyone who has built a box, what do you recommend? 

For the kick plate, I was hoping to use the same material for the amp rack covered with carpet. Maybe HDPE? I'm not sure where to locate that. Again, what is the material of choice?

 

Link to post
4 hours ago, GasBill said:

Brandonloos21, I'm not 100% sure yet. The one I built for project "El Cheapo" was plywood coated in oil based paint. For this one I'm leaning toward MDF coated in resin. I have a lot of polyester resin, epoxy resin, penetrating epoxy, and fiberglass mat and cloth from a prior boat floor replacement and I was thinking about coating the box in some of that. I know MDF is horrible with water, but it seems really easy to work with. I've seen people use a bed liner and I really like that look as well.

Anyone who has built a box, what do you recommend? 

For the kick plate, I was hoping to use the same material for the amp rack covered with carpet. Maybe HDPE? I'm not sure where to locate that. Again, what is the material of choice?

 

I built the box in my current boat for my revo xxx 12 sub with birch, double front baffle. I used starboard (marine hdpe) for my kick plate, and ordered an axis kick plate from uptice 

Link to post

If I'm reading the schematic correctly, you have the rocker switch feeding the HU + (correct) and the preamp/amps blue (guaranteed to give you a turn off thump).

13 ply Baltic birch is not that much more expensive and MUCH MUCH easier to work because it's not as fragile.

For boats I prefer MDO.  https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-G1S-EXT-Fir-MDO-Board-185303/206461475

I get that you're trying to stay on budget but:

Every new project at my house is a reason to upgrade the tools.

If you haven't experienced a track saw yet, this is the ideal project to rationalise getting one.

 

Link to post

This should be better.. Sorry for missing that in your first post.. dumb mistake.:Frustrated:

OsQh2Ik.jpg

For the box material, I really like the look of the MDO board. I'll just have to figure out where to find the stuff.. 

I did some tweaking of the dimensions and was able to get everything neatly and easily on 1 sheet of 4x8 and have plenty left for an amp rack. https://www.cutlistoptimizer.com/ is an awesome free, online tool for this type of work. Once I get a mock up of the box in the boat I'll have a better idea of how difficult it will be to install/remove the box when needed. 

gjLbrqA.png

ehuHku9.png

robtr8,

I totally agree! I'm covered in the saw department, but I'm thinking about adding a router to the collection for this project.

Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...