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New Garage build


BlindSquirrel

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About 4 years ago we bought a fixer upper house on a couple acres. Since then, I have replaced everything on the house but the studs and rafters to complete that part of the renovation. On to the next project! The house currently has a detached 2 car garage, but I have plans for a new bigger one so we can keep our boat here instead of off site and not have to walk outside in the snow to get in it. The current garage size is ~640 sq feet the new one will be ~1480 sq feet with 12 foot ceilings. I'm looking for some suggestions on how to heat and cool the new garage. I'm going to insulate the garage doors, ceiling, and walls. In Kansas it gets in the low 100s in the summer and as low as -10 f in winter. I am considering hydronic heat in the slab, but that would only solve the heat issue. For energy on site, we currently have electric and propane available. I'm not opposed to solar, I just don't know enough about it. Also I'm open to suggestions of "must haves" that I should add too. 

Hoping we have full approval by Sept 15th so I can start demo!

site plan First Floor plan Front Elevation

 

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Haha, they always say you never regret going bigger.    Morning after we poured the apron.  

Here are some photos of the project, getting close... it’s too cold for me to put the stone on the front, I did get some paint on but have a bit more to go. All and all, I’m happy with it.   

Posted Images

Insulate the heck out of it - R40-R50 roof (ice house preferred).  Add a floor drain (dry well unless you have to tie-in to  the drain system).  Wood walls so you can pound in  hooks etc.   Use a steel I-beam for the garage door to prevent sagging.  Pre-wire Cat 5e+ and more electrical outlets than you think you will ever use.  We did storage trusses which means we can store a LOT of stuff that gets only annual usage (Xmas decorations for example).  Ceiling fans.

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26 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Insulate the heck out of it - R40-R50 roof (ice house preferred).  Add a floor drain (dry well unless you have to tie-in to  the drain system).  Wood walls so you can pound in  hooks etc.   Use a steel I-beam for the garage door to prevent sagging.  Pre-wire Cat 5e+ and more electrical outlets than you think you will ever use.  We did storage trusses which means we can store a LOT of stuff that gets only annual usage (Xmas decorations for example).  Ceiling fans.

Yeah, I’m waiting on the truss quote to come back. Quoting both storage and not, but with the span the height up there will be almost 8 feet, so will likely go storage route.

Steel for the 16 foot garage door hole? You don’t think 2 microlams will be enough? I certainly don’t want it to sag.

Ceiling fans! Yes, I’ll add the electrical for those for sure. Good call.

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7 minutes ago, BlindSquirrel said:

Steel for the 16 foot garage door hole? You don’t think 2 microlams will be enough? I certainly don’t want it to sag.

yup!  I got a honking gig microlam and it still sagged - PMO.  For sure - what usually happens is the floor finisher makes a lovely flat floor (bad idea!) and then your door header sags and you wind up needing a 3" door seal.  BTDT. The other option is to have the finisher slant the floor side to side and back to front (door).  But an I-beam gets rid of all that.  

Also, consider  a low profile garage door opener(s).

The next garage I build will have a separate door for the boat.

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1 minute ago, Eagleboy99 said:

yup!  I got a honking gig microlam and it still sagged - PMO.  For sure - what usually happens is the floor finisher makes a lovely flat floor (bad idea!) and then your door header sags and you wind up needing a 3" door seal.  BTDT. The other option is to have the finisher slant the floor side to side and back to front (door).  But an I-beam gets rid of all that.  

Also, consider  a low profile garage door opener(s).

The next garage I build will have a separate door for the boat.

Good to know, I’ll make the change to steel there then. Might even be cheaper..Lumber is insane. 4x8 osb used to be $8 at Home Depot, yesterday it was $21.🤯

Yeah, planning on the low pro door openers for sure. They are cool.

I wish I could put a floor drain in, will be too much work to tap in tho. The plan is to slope the floor slightly back to front to drain the snow melt.
 

What about concrete? I’ve read about people putting fiber mix in the floor to prevent cracking. Needed? I’m planning on putting 4 piers under the floor due to the weight of our truck and boat in there.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, BlindSquirrel said:

I wish I could put a floor drain in, will be too much work to tap in tho. The plan is to slope the floor slightly back to front to drain the snow melt.
 

What about concrete? I’ve read about people putting fiber mix in the floor to prevent cracking. Needed? I’m planning on putting 4 piers under the floor due to the weight of our truck and boat in there.

Floor drain is easy if you do a dry well.  Slope to the middle of the door, too.

As for fiber, I dunno - but do a minimum 6" slab; 8" preferred.  Lots of stress cuts.

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I had a shop built, 

Lights . 4ft LED's. Install more than you think you need,it won't be too much. I have 200 bulbs.

Forget the drain. If you have to build it to code, you will have to account for oil and other petroleum waste. 

Doors as big as you can. I have 12wx12.5h. 12 ft is NO/ too wide when backing in your boat. 

Back half of my shop is dead nuts flat. Fronthalf slopes to the doors. I plan to wash and detail my vehicles and water will run out.

Get heat/AC. It seems extravagant but it was the cheapest part of the build. 5ton 6k. Use a thermostat you can prog with your phone. Sensi is what I have. Turn it on half hr before you go out to work. Nice. 

Outlets everywhere and not all on one circuit. Also welder outlets. 

For working on cars get 2 post 10000 lb lift.

A couple windows, make them high, so no one can peek in.

6 in concrete is fins, with mesh and vapor barrier.

Edited by carguy79ta
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A car lift is on the list too, that will be awesome. 
 

Any experience with those mini splits for hvac? I have a few acres behind the garage I could use for some geothermal heat cool too that I’m exploring. 
 

11 hours ago, carguy79ta said:

 

6 in concrete is fins,

Are you talking the floor? Right now we have 4 inch planned since we are putting in the piers.

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Have windows or louvers that can open and a whole house fan.  I wish my garage had a better ventilation system for when I'm painting, cleaning with chemicals, etc.  I heat with a bullet heater when necessary, and don't really need an HVAC system but man I wish I had a system to change the air over.

@Eagleboy99 I think that's a good idea, since his doors are on the load bearing wall and not the gable.  How does someone source that?

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For your concrete floor, you may not need a vapor barrier if your soil conditions are sandy and drain well.  I'm not a fan of vapor barriers unless they're needed due to soil conditions, or if you plan on putting a coating on the floor of any type.  That's my experience and opinion.  

With respect to putting piers under the floor, I think that's not necessary.  You're better off using a reinforced floor that's a minimum 6" thick.  IIWM, I would be asking for a road mesh product or equivalent reinforcing steel design.  'm sure there is a KDOT specification for road mesh and that's what I would be asking for.  Alternatively, you could ask for a type 1 steel fiber at a dosage rate of approximately 23# / CY of concrete and that will provide you with strength as well as crack control.  You can expect the cost of steel fibers to add approximately $35-50 to the cost of a yard of concrete.  Fibermesh is good for crack control but offers little to no strength.  You could look into a macro synthetic fiber as well.  They offer more strength than a typical residential type fibermesh product.  If you go with a high performing macro synthetic fiber, you should expect it to be more cost effective than the steel fiber.  In whatever case, be sure that they cut control joints in the floor with spacing of approximately 15' OC.  this will direct cracks to the joint.  All concrete cracks, so if you provide a location for the crack to occur, you're less likely to experience failure over time.  I don't see a need for anything thicker than 6".  8" is overkill.  In all Toyota manufacturing facilities, with the exception of paint shops and machining facilities or process specific areas, their specification is typically a 7" unreinforced floor and they perform very well.  GM specification is 8", same with Ford and FCA however Ford, FCA, and GM use steel fiber reinforcement.  They don't like unreinforced floors like Toyota does.  Thickness of slabs are typically only increased in machining and stamping facilities or locally isolated due to a specific manufacturing process.  

Also, be sure to check the mix design on the concrete.  I would stay away from fly ash in the mix and be sure they're using a good, sound limestone aggregate if available.  In your area they may provide river rock as aggregate, which will still perform well, but I prefer limestone.  I would suggest that you have whomever your concrete contractor is provide you with a 4,000 PSI mix design.  Have them confirm it and spend a couple $$ on getting some cylinder tests done to confirm strength.  I would get 3 done.  Test one at 7 days, the other at 14 days, and the last at 28 days.  If you fail to reach design strength, then have the contractor remove and replace it.  You'll have to get that into the contract, though.  Tie them to the performance.  Another thing to watch on the mix design is air content.  I would not allow more than 5% air content.  Excessive air in the concrete can lead to spalling and delamination over time.  If you ever plan on coating it this is a concern.   

 

Otherwise, the plans look good.  I would prepare for a cord reel and a compressed air hose reel.  They make life much easier.  And for sure LED.  

 

With respect to the issue of steel over the door opening, I don't think that's necessary either.  Perhaps you look at doubling up the gluelam beams but the issue there is that the beam depth would be greater than the depth of a wide flange steel member.  And, to your point, the cost of lumber is such that it may be a wash to use a small wide flange steel member.  I would think that a W8 x 1 which is nominally 8" x 4" would be adequate.  At an 18" span, it's load carrying capacity is somewhere around 6-7,000# as I recall.  

 

Let me know if I can help you spend more $$..  I like spending other people's money.

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1 hour ago, BlindSquirrel said:

A car lift is on the list too, that will be awesome. 
 

Any experience with those mini splits for hvac? I have a few acres behind the garage I could use for some geothermal heat cool too that I’m exploring. 
 

Are you talking the floor? Right now we have 4 inch planned since we are putting in the piers.

Do 6".  Esp. for a garage that size.  Not that much more money.  Like Dad used to say "Feed the cat another canary".

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2 hours ago, Slayer said:

Also, be sure to check the mix design on the concrete.  I would stay away from fly ash in the mix and be sure they're using a good, sound limestone aggregate if available.  In your area they may provide river rock as aggregate, which will still perform well, but I prefer limestone.  I would suggest that you have whomever your concrete contractor is provide you with a 4,000 PSI mix design.  Have them confirm it and spend a couple $$ on getting some cylinder tests done to confirm strength.  I would get 3 done.  Test one at 7 days, the other at 14 days, and the last at 28 days.  If you fail to reach design strength, then have the contractor remove and replace it.  You'll have to get that into the contract, though.  Tie them to the performance.  Another thing to watch on the mix design is air content.  I would not allow more than 5% air content.  Excessive air in the concrete can lead to spalling and delamination over time.  If you ever plan on coating it this is a concern.   

 

 

Thank you for your expertise and opinion. Just what I'm looking for, as I am the contractor running this show. I'm subing out the concrete, but doing everything myself....see hand drawn prints..lol. Here is the foundation plan... pre reading your post. So bump up to 6 inch slab and no piers still? 

Foundation Print

 

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3 minutes ago, BlindSquirrel said:

Thank you for your expertise and opinion. Just what I'm looking for, as I am the contractor running this show. I'm subing out the concrete, but doing everything myself....see hand drawn prints..lol. Here is the foundation plan... pre reading your post. So bump up to 6 inch slab and no piers still? 

Foundation Print

 

Honestly, if your plan for the piers was to increase the loading capacity of the slab, then I say you can get rid of them and go to a 6" reinforced concrete slab.  HOWEVER, this assumes that you have decent ground and prepare the subgrade correctly.  I'm sending you a pm.

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On 9/4/2020 at 9:27 AM, BlindSquirrel said:

A car lift is on the list too, that will be awesome. 
 

Any experience with those mini splits for hvac? I have a few acres behind the garage I could use for some geothermal heat cool too that I’m exploring. 
 

Are you talking the floor? Right now we have 4 inch planned since we are putting in the piers.

Yep the floor. @Slayer pretty well has you  covered. We also thickened the slab to 12" under the lift. I ,also have been in construction all my life. a couple inches of conc is not that much. Compact the subgrade very well. That will reduce settling/cracking. Also crack control joint cuts. Also we doweled into the foundation wall to keep the slab "pinned, not floating". Mixed emotions about that, positives for either way. The vapor barrier will keep the slab from sweating.

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My garage is 2,000 sq ft. 12’ ceilings and 8’ roll up doors. I had the roll up doors with 2 extra panels which gets the doors up tight to the 12’ ceilings so 22VLX tower can be raised without hitting the open garage door.  Also around the interior perimeter I framed in drop shelving 4’ wide 4’ lower than ceiling with sliding doors around 3 walls. This provides covered storage with out loosing floor space. I just doubled up joist and ran strong backs to hang shelving frames to for sliding doors I used 1/4” melamine with edge stiffeners. Doors are 4’ wide and staggered front to back in a dado wood track top and bottom.

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On 9/5/2020 at 4:20 PM, Bozboat said:

I would love to have on of these fans 

I have seen them in arenas 

As much as I love. BAF. We just installed a 12’ Hunter in a PT facility. I did not buy it so I looked up the price. It was somewhere around $1200.00. I would do that before a BAF for this situation. And I have installed quite a few BAF over the years. 

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If you are considering resale, you should do a 14' door and at least 16' ceilings - that way it can also be an "RV garage".

My door is 20' wide x 14' tall.  I don't have a steel beam, and in about 12 years, no sag.

Would have loved to do a floor drain, but no easy way to do it and have the building permitted.  

Lots of electric.  I have outlets every 6'. And a 50 amp circuit for my RV.  Don't forget outlets outside the building.

The more natural light the better.  Mine has lots of windows, and a couple of sky lights.

Water would be nice.

My building is insulated and heated.  No AC or fans.  In the summer in Denver, it is in the mid 80's.  When I bring in my heat soaked truck, it can bring the temp up to low 90's.  I don't think I would do AC, but a whole house fan would be a good idea if it cools down at night.  For heat, I used a Big Buddy propane heater.  Easily keeps the temp 50* in the winter.  Can heat it warmer but I have never needed to.

Build it as big as you can.  It won't be big enough.  My original building was 24' x 52'.  Then I added another about 400 sq ft.  And I still wish it was bigger.

 

1FB234B6-232C-494D-92E4-3F742746CD51_1_201_a.jpeg

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9 hours ago, RyanB said:

 

My door is 20' wide x 14' tall.  I don't have a steel beam, and in about 12 years, no sag.


1FB234B6-232C-494D-92E4-3F742746CD51_1_201_a.jpeg

Your opening is on the gable end, and the last truss on that end is supporting the weight of the roof so the beam is not bearing weight.  On the OP's garage, his doors are on the cullis end and the beam is supporting the weight of multiple trusses, that are supporting the roof.  

Beautiful set up, BTW.

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10 hours ago, RyanB said:

The more natural light the better.  Mine has lots of windows, and a couple of sky lights.

Water would be nice.

I have no windows at all - too many opportunities for  break-ins.  That said I have lots of lights.  Out at the lake a neighbour put in windows, but rectangular ones, and high up to let light in.  Skylights in a garage?  Not for me, but then again I have  storage up top and I would have to  box that in to be of use.  Those light pipes might work though. https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/windows-and-doors/skylights-and-accessories/tubular-skylights.html

Yeah, water would be nice, but the you would want a drain.  "If you give a pig a pancake" like Dad used to say...  :)

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Thanks for all the feedback so far. I’ve made some changes and am hopefully going to submit for my building permit this week. Then the fun begins.

Windows? I’ve got 3 planned on the west side and one on the south. We live in a pretty rural area where thief’s are shot on site, so they are few and far between. Also will be finishing our fence out front into a gate for the driveway.

$1200 for a fan? I was thinking maybe three normal sized fans for ~200 each, unless that fancy fan does more than I’m thinking it does.

Hvac? I’m planning on burying 400-500 feet of pex (maybe more) in the ground ~5 feet and running a glycol solution through it. That hooked to a heat exchanger inside a normal looking hvac system, should yield 53-55 degree air nearly cost free year round. Then supplement in the winter with a hot dawg propane heater. 

I still have the fun part of taking the current garage down without destroying the whole building due to county restrictions of setback requirements and grandfathering.... so dumb. I have to leave up the west wall and add on to it instead of starting over and doing it right....I’ll update with photos my progress. The machine I’m going to use gets here the 20th, so that’s my hopeful start date. 🤞🏻

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20 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I have no windows at all - too many opportunities for  break-ins.  That said I have lots of lights.  Out at the lake a neighbour put in windows, but rectangular ones, and high up to let light in.  Skylights in a garage?  Not for me, but then again I have  storage up top and I would have to  box that in to be of use.  Those light pipes might work though. https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/windows-and-doors/skylights-and-accessories/tubular-skylights.html

Yeah, water would be nice, but the you would want a drain.  "If you give a pig a pancake" like Dad used to say...  :)

I have lots of lights too. But there is a significant difference between natural light and electric lights. 
 

Do you have windows in your house, or is that too many opportunities for break in as well?  You must live in a different area than me. I will say I do have an alarm on the building that includes glass break detection. But in the 15 years we have lived here I have not heard of one break in. 
 

Agree that a drain would be great, but like I said, very cost prohibitive where I’m at. But that doesn’t mean water would be useless. I Could still use it for things like filling my RV water tank. Or a commercial ice machine. I’m sure there are other things as well. 
 

To each their own. 

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19 minutes ago, RyanB said:

You must live in a different area than me. I will say I do have an alarm on the building that includes glass break detection. But in the 15 years we have lived here I have not heard of one break in. 

Garage break-ins are  a  big thing up here.  Sometimes they force the door, but windows are easy for crooks to scope the joint.  Besides, even with an alarm - we have them, too, unless you are home you are hooped as the response time is slow.  They are in and out in seconds with the fenceable stuff like tools and bikes.

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