TV Question (23 or 25 LSV)

[DFW]

17 hours ago, RyanB said:

I stand corrected. I guess that is why I’m more of a RAM guy. No such restrictions. 

Page 196 of the 2021 Ram 1500 Owners Manual. See box in the middle of the page titled "WARNING!".

[RCorsa]

So what does it take to install such a hitch.  I’ve got an 2022 f150 with max tow package on order and will Tow my 2022 m240 occasionally.  I know the tow limit is 13,000 but sounds like In an abundance of caution I should get one of these.   What is the typical cost and is it an easy install? 

[DFW]

A weight distributing hitch does not work well with surge brakes unless specificity designed to do so. Swing tongues are a problem for a WDH also. Hence, you almost never see one, even in the F-150 commercials showing the truck pulling a big Tige.

A 2022 M240 full of fuel and gear is going to be darn near 10,000lbs or more  sitting on a triple axle trailer at the scale. That’s an awful lot of weight behind a F-150.

[DFW]

Gorgeous M240 by the way.

[RyanB]

3 hours ago, DFW said:

Page 196 of the 2021 Ram 1500 Owners Manual. See box in the middle of the page titled "WARNING!".

Purely legalese.  Still not required.  Also need to remember that most towing is with utility trailers or RVs which have a significantly higher tongue weight than a boat, which makes weight distribution to distribute the weight further forward on the TV more important so that you don't overload the rear axle.  A 9000 pound RV is going to have close to 20% tongue weight.  A 9000 pound boat will likely have around 10%, possibly less.

And I'm not arguing that a 1500 is as good as a 2500/3500 for towing.  Because it isn't close.  But for most cases, it is adequate.  I've safely towed my 7000 pound LSV many miles with a 1500 platform.  And if you look in the boat ramp parking lots in my area, they are dominated by 150/1500s and full size SUVs.

And that M240 is an incredibly beautiful boat.

Edited December 29, 2021 by RyanB

[justgary]

4 hours ago, RCorsa said:

So what does it take to install such a hitch.  I’ve got an 2022 f150 with max tow package on order and will Tow my 2022 m240 occasionally.  I know the tow limit is 13,000 but sounds like In an abundance of caution I should get one of these.   What is the typical cost and is it an easy install? 

I got mine at a camping store for around $220.  I don't use it with my boat.

The drawbar fits into your receiver and the load spring cradles fit onto the trailer tongue.  Might need special ones for a single tube tongue.

[justgary]

Equal-i-zer makes a WDH for use with surge brakes.  They also make an adapter for a single tube tongue.  The only requirement is that the tongue is clear where the bracket mounts.

[RCorsa]

Thanks on the compliments on my m240.  I’ll be bringing the m240 up to my lake house (and over a pass) with my buddies F350. I generally only tow around only around town (service/detail etc) and with my m235 I used my 2019 raptor Which was OK but I figured with the increase in weight with the m240 I better go with a f150 platinum with the hybrid engine and max tow package.  The f250s are just too big for regular city driving for me.  Amazingly I sold my raptor last week for 6k more than I paid 2.5 years ago. However I will say Im getting a little nervous because my Ford dealer is saying new orders are anyones guess on delivery. 

[DFW]

5 hours ago, RyanB said:

Purely legalese.  Still not required.  Also need to remember that most towing is with utility trailers or RVs which have a significantly higher tongue weight than a boat, which makes weight distribution to distribute the weight further forward on the TV more important so that you don't overload the rear axle.  A 9000 pound RV is going to have close to 20% tongue weight.  A 9000 pound boat will likely have around 10%, possibly less.

And I'm not arguing that a 1500 is as good as a 2500/3500 for towing.  Because it isn't close.  But for most cases, it is adequate.  I've safely towed my 7000 pound LSV many miles with a 1500 platform.  And if you look in the boat ramp parking lots in my area, they are dominated by 150/1500s and full size SUVs.

And that M240 is an incredibly beautiful boat.

I agree @RyanB. Boat trailer tongue weights are less than RV tongue weights. The tongue weight for my 9000lb 25 LSV is 800lbs when full of gas and gear. I posit that 7000lbs behind a 1/2 ton is safe, but that changes at 8000lbs or 9000lbs and certainly 10,000lbs. Maybe 5000lb to 7000lb should be termed the “acceptable” range? 1/2 ton towing experience tells me that as trailer weight increases over 5000lbs the negative effect on tow vehicle performance is exponential as opposed to linear. As such I think it’s no accident that the big 3 “recommend/require” weight distribution for 1/2 tons at or over 5000lbs(Ford, Ram)/7000lbs(GM).

[RCorsa]

I guess I’m confused why ford would advertise and post the max tow for the truck I build at 13,000 (the most available for an f150) if I should not do it?  Not trying to argue I just want to be educated on the best way to do what I need.  

Edited December 30, 2021 by RCorsa

[DFW]

4 minutes ago, RCorsa said:

Thanks on the compliments on my m240.  I’ll be bringing the m240 up to my lake house (and over a pass) with my buddies F350. I generally only tow around only around town (service/detail etc) and with my m235 I used my 2019 raptor Which was OK but I figured with the increase in weight with the m240 I better go with a f150 platinum with the hybrid engine and max tow package.  The f250s are just too big for regular city driving for me.  Amazingly I sold my raptor last week for 6k more than I paid 2.5 years ago. However I will say Im getting a little nervous because my Ford dealer is saying new orders are anyones guess on delivery. 

F-150 is a no brainer for daily urban driving. I’d be really curious to know what the weight rating on your M240 trailer is as well as the actual weight at the scale? The sticker on my 25 LSV trailer is clearly de-rated just under 10,000lbs. Don’t have an actual scale weight yet.

[Cole2001]

Trailer manufacturers are trying to keep weight ratings under 10k GVWR. Only one that’s over from my knowledge is the g25 paragon.  Over 10k in certain states and provinces require reflective stickers on the trailer and heavy endorsements on your licence. So wouldn’t be surprised at all if they’re de rated, seems like way too much of a liability for manufactures to build a trailer with such a small amount of extra weight capacity. 
 

I absolutely love my f150 with the 3.5 for city driving and besides the insanely soft suspension, brakes and power are no problems towing my 25ZX and Ri around town. With that in mind, there’s no way I would even consider taking it over the mountain passes.
 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Cole2001

[DFW]

10 minutes ago, RCorsa said:

I guess I’m confused why ford would advertise and post the max tow for the truck I build at 13,000 (the most available for an f150) if I should not do it?  Not trying to argue I just want to be educated on the best way to do what I need.  

The actual max trailer weight for your specific truck will be the GCVWR minus the GVWR. If it’s 13,000lbs, the truck will absolutely do it. Ford also (unequivocally) says weight distribution is required above 500lbs of tongue weight and or 5000lbs of trailer weight.

Others have noted WDH options that will work with a swing tongue and surge brakes (I’m assuming the trailer has surge brakes). And yet, I know of no one following the recommendations/requirements. I’ve never seen a weight distribution hitch on a boat trailer, nor used one, and I have towed thousands of miles over 5000lbs with an F-150/1500.

With my 24MXZ at 8000lbs and now my 25LSV at 9000lbs, I chose to stop playing the game and got another 3/4 ton (I’ve flip flopped several times). I realize that is not an option for many here. And frankly, most aren’t towing anywhere near 9-10 thousand pounds.

Your new F-150 will handle the M240, but you’ll have to be very mindful of how much weight is behind you. Like one of the articles I linked below says, it’s a lot like following (or not) the speed limit.

To your original question, the massive increase in towing capacity of 1/2 ton trucks over the past 7 or 8 years has more to do with marketing departments at the big 3 winning the war against the lawyers than it does with real performance gains of the vehicles. Thinking back, I believe it was the EcoBoost marketing that fired the first shot.

2 interesting articles.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2001-10-new-trucks-tow-10000-pounds/

https://www.motortrend.com/features/1703-tow-ratings-and-the-law-discussing-limits-of-trailer-size/

 

 

[SurfNAZ]

@RCorsa here’s a hitch that may fit your needs https://www.curtmfg.com/part/14017

[RCorsa]

Sorry what would that hitch add?  Sounds like I would still have to add a weight distribution hitch. 

[RyanB]

5 hours ago, RCorsa said:

Sorry what would that hitch add?  Sounds like I would still have to add a weight distribution hitch. 

It would appear that the limitation for Ford bumper pulling above 5000 pounds is the hitch.  Replacing with the Curt above would get rid of that weakness - that hitch has a stated bumper pull rating of 1000/10,000 pounds.

 

[RCorsa]

So at least documented per Ford is as long as you upgrade to the 2022 max tow package (which I believe upgrades the bumper as well as other components) with a weight distribution hitch the tow rating is 14,000.  Without that hitch, the rating is 12,400 but max hitch is 5000/500

[Murphy8166]

Does anyone here know the actual tounge weight these boats throw down.  Even my F250 with a 23LSV has a little more rear end sag than I would like.  I could not imagine putting it on a 1/2 ton, stock suspension...

[RyanB]

I know that me and one other guy can lift my 2014 tongue.  That is with 300 pounds of lead in the bow. It really doesn't cause much sag on my Expedition or my Grand Cherokee.  No sag on my 3500. The only thing it ever really seemed to test the suspension was my old Yukon XL, but that was fine once I started it and the suspension activated.

 

[jjackkrash]

The tongue weight on many trailers is adjustable depending on bunk placement and axle placement and where the boat sits on it.  The one way to know is to weigh it.  There is no real guarantee that the same model boat and the same model trailer will have the same tongue weight coming from the factory, even if they are usually close.  My current boat is right around the recommended 10% based on my weigh-safe-hitch scale.   

[dalt1]

4 hours ago, Murphy8166 said:

Does anyone here know the actual tounge weight these boats throw down.  Even my F250 with a 23LSV has a little more rear end sag than I would like.  I could not imagine putting it on a 1/2 ton, stock suspension...

My 18 LSV23 full fuel, coolers and toys comes in at 7,250 lbs and 800lb tongue weight.

[Cole2001]

This probably isn’t the case for the newer Malibus all coming on the same trailer, but axle placement his huge in regards to tongue weight. 
Switched mid season from a boatmate to an extreme temporarily and it was night and day difference with tongue weight.  

[hunter77ah]

9 minutes ago, Cole2001 said:

This probably isn’t the case for the newer Malibus all coming on the same trailer, but axle placement his huge in regards to tongue weight. 
Switched mid season from a boatmate to an extreme temporarily and it was night and day difference with tongue weight.  

Which was better?

[Cole2001]

7 minutes ago, hunter77ah said:

Which was better?

I much prefer the boatmate. Axles are further forward so lighter tongue weight. As well the little things on the boatmate are nicer; bunk placement, front steps, winch, better lighting, tongues not as finicky un hitching, etc. 

[Surf4FamFun]

The rule of thumb is 8 - 10% of trailer weight on the tongue.  When our 2021 23 MXZ is level it is right at 8% of the 8,000 lb weight.  I took the rig to some CAT scales at a truck stop and actualy weighted it.  

The F-250's and Ram's I have rented from Enterprise have not squatted with our boat, I have a draw bar with the proper drop to keep the trailer level which probably is why they sit pretty level.

Too little or too much weight on the tongue can comprise the stability of the tow.  This applies to single and double axle trailers.  At what speed you have what problem with control varies by what is off (heavy/light) and what you are towing with but too far off and there will be a problem somewhere it would not be otherwise.  

Triples are probably different, no experience there except towing with a dump truck which is kind of different, and for me over 40 years ago so rules were a bit more lax anyway.