TV Question (23 or 25 LSV)

[RyanB]

1 hour ago, Alta said:

Thanks for info - and while it might fit it would be a pain (at least in my current garage).  I have my F-150 leveled and with 34” tires and height wise is close but fine (imagine an F250 would be similar).  I park in a downtown garage and the problem with the F250 is it is big enough to make it where you have to do three point turns to get up several levels.  I have no desire to do that everyday.  There are several downtown garages where even my F-150 would be to tall.

Sounds to me like the parking situation is going to make the decision for you.  And I don't blame you.  I would choose a 150/1500 if I were in your position.

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by RyanB

[carguy79ta]

Yeah am used to the 3 pt turns. Whenever we take our old beater 2004 yukon, like to the airport, I appreciate the short wheelbase and tighter turn radius.

[The Hulk]

150 Ecoboost 10 speed trans is great combo for occasionally towing a big boat.. if u tow everyday and live in the mountains then sure a 250 

Daily driver the 150 Ecoboost is a dream ride, way better than a Denali, smoother and more pickup. 

250s new are nice but lot of extra front end weight I think the diseal is like 650-700lbs more weight in the front and u will def feel it in the ride.. the 250 gaser I'm told is way smoother ride but somewhat defeats the purpose of the 250 IMO.. 

Older 150s pre 10speed and pre Ecoboost is a struggle with a 25 for sure. Now no problem.. 

[Texan32]

16 hours ago, Wolflake said:

Ha I love the diesel crowd, you get better mileage sure, but fuel costs 30% more, oil changes are double the cost, the diesel engine costs $8k more and I could go on. 
Towing power from the diesel is great, there’s no denying it, but most of the time it’s just over kill and simply not needed. 

tow capacity is based on several factors. And guess what isnt the biggest one?!  The engine.  Yes, the F-150 can "technically" tow 12,000 lbs (with the right package combo).  But i would NEVER EVER tow that much weight with a 1/2 ton.  In the word of Dr Malcom..."your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should".

my '17 5.0 does a dandy job of towing my T23....until i get on the highway.  Can it hold 70?  Yes.  But, it normally runs 3rd or 4th gear (and that's WITH a Stage 3/5-Start computer Tow tune).  If my upcoming deployment goes correctly for me this winter, i will be upgrading to a 250/350 PS when i get home.  Yes, everything you mentioned is true.  BUT....I want a truck that can pull any darn thing i want.  I want a truck that i can take a multi-day journey pulling my boat and not worry about beating up my engine/trans.  Most importantly, i want a truck that instills confidence towing weight up and down long stretches.

[Texan32]

14 hours ago, Alta said:

Thanks for info - and while it might fit it would be a pain (at least in my current garage).  I have my F-150 leveled and with 34” tires and height wise is close but fine (imagine an F250 would be similar).  I park in a downtown garage and the problem with the F250 is it is big enough to make it where you have to do three point turns to get up several levels.  I have no desire to do that everyday.  There are several downtown garages where even my F-150 would be to tall.

The 250/350 specs at 81.5" tall.  I could be wrong, but i thought one of the factors of that is making it so that a showroom truck can fit in a standard garage door (84").  Even though the pucker factor would be peaking....you should be good there.  The turn radius could be an issue.  From what i found, 2020 F-150 turn radius is 20.3 - 26.5.  The 2020 F-250-350 turn radius is 23.8 - 29.8.  Those obviously depend on the cab/bed combo.  

[eubanks]

I went through the same 150/250 debate last year to tow our ‘19 23LSV. I opted for the 150 with 3.5L EB and max tow package, and it tows just fine. I’ve never felt like I didn’t have enough acceleration or stopping power. I’m also in Texas so elevation wasn’t an issue.  You’ll be fine with a 150 if that’s the truck that best suits you all-around. TowInt gas mileage does suck though. 

[MLBurns]

When your in heavy traffic and the highway comes to a sudden stop, that is when you will know the difference between the 1/2 and 3/4 ton. The 1/2 ton will require more stopping distance and will sway a bit from being pushed under hard braking, I just leave a bigger safety cushion when towing the 247 with the 1/2 ton. Also, don't forget about travelling through deer country if you are close to the tow limit on the truck. 'Just hit the deer, if your trailer is heavier than the tow vehicle' is a good rule of thumb. 

[guitarcrazy]

I just bought a new GMC Sierra Denali with the 3.0 Duramax and I have been very happy.  I have no problem going 80 on the interstate, keeps speed on the hills, and the 10 speed doesn't hunt around a lot.  I get about 12 mpg towing my 23 LSV, and 28 empty at 75.  I get 22 in town going back and forth to work.  I previously had a Canyon with the 2.8 diesel, and it was a strong rig,  but the 3.0 Duramax is much more capable and has the same fuel economy.  

[gregtay]

On 8/15/2020 at 7:56 PM, MLBurns said:

When your in heavy traffic and the highway comes to a sudden stop, that is when you will know the difference between the 1/2 and 3/4 ton. The 1/2 ton will require more stopping distance and will sway a bit from being pushed under hard braking, I just leave a bigger safety cushion when towing the 247 with the 1/2 ton. Also, don't forget about travelling through deer country if you are close to the tow limit on the truck. 'Just hit the deer, if your trailer is heavier than the tow vehicle' is a good rule of thumb. 

Question.... if the trailer brakes are working properly (yes.. just the surge type) is there really all that much "push" on the back of the tow vehicle?  I think the answer is... "no".  The point of the brakes are to stop the trailer load on their own.  Yes, by the nature of how the brakes work there is "some" pressure/push on the back of the truck but it shouldn't be enough to make a difference between a 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton.  If you had no trailer brakes.. then sure, but difference.

[gregtay]

On 8/11/2020 at 6:13 AM, Texan32 said:

tow capacity is based on several factors. And guess what isnt the biggest one?!  The engine.  Yes, the F-150 can "technically" tow 12,000 lbs (with the right package combo).  But i would NEVER EVER tow that much weight with a 1/2 ton.  In the word of Dr Malcom..."your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should".

my '17 5.0 does a dandy job of towing my T23....until i get on the highway.  Can it hold 70?  Yes.  But, it normally runs 3rd or 4th gear (and that's WITH a Stage 3/5-Start computer Tow tune).  If my upcoming deployment goes correctly for me this winter, i will be upgrading to a 250/350 PS when i get home.  Yes, everything you mentioned is true.  BUT....I want a truck that can pull any darn thing i want.  I want a truck that i can take a multi-day journey pulling my boat and not worry about beating up my engine/trans.  Most importantly, i want a truck that instills confidence towing weight up and down long stretches.

SAE J2807 was designed to take the guess work out of the equation.  In the past rating were marketing hype, today they actually represent what a truck can do, and do safely.  If a truck is rated to a tow capacity then it has demonstrated that it is in control and can stop a load at that capacity.  If Ford designed an F150 to safely pull 12,000 then there is no reason not to do it. Same if you want to pull 35,000 pounds with an F350. You can't be dumb when towing.. but that goes for anytime you have anything behind you, regardless of how much it weighs.  

 

[RyanB]

@gregtay After my recent towing experience, I am a little........cynical........ about the J2807 tests.

Short history is I have a RAM 3500 that tows the boat great.  But there are times when I tow it with an SUV.  I had a 2011 GMC Yukon Denali XL that I was never happy with.  It was rated to tow 7800 pounds (maybe that was pre SAE ratings?).  It was replaced with a 2019 Expedition MAX with the max tow package (9200 pounds rating), following SAE guidelines.

My boat was 6200 pounds when I first bought it (I did weigh it).  Add fuel, gear, lead and the like, I am sure I am at 7000 pounds.

The Ex is a significant improvement over the Yukon, but towing back from Lake Powell last weekend, air temps in the upper 70's, low 80's, the transmission temp once again reached 240* eastbound I70 over Vail pass and the east approach to Eisnenhower tunnel.  That wasn't hot enough to give a transmission fluid light (I did get that on the Yukon), it was hot enough to get to the top of the gauge, right next to where it turns yellow.

I see NO WAY that I could tow another 2200 pounds and not overheat the transmission.

I've towed at or above max tow ratings before, and it isn't a relaxing experience.  My current position is that even with the SAE tow ratings, those numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.......

[MLBurns]

3 hours ago, gregtay said:

Question.... if the trailer brakes are working properly (yes.. just the surge type) is there really all that much "push" on the back of the tow vehicle?  I think the answer is... "no".  The point of the brakes are to stop the trailer load on their own.  Yes, by the nature of how the brakes work there is "some" pressure/push on the back of the truck but it shouldn't be enough to make a difference between a 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton.  If you had no trailer brakes.. then sure, but difference.

I have a 2 axle trailer with a 247 on it and have had to "hard" brake at 70+ mph on highway. The tires will eventually lock up and you still have weight pushing on the vehicle just like you would if you had a comparable load on a 2 axle trailer with elec brakes. If what you are saying was true, then you would have the same stopping distance with or without towing the boat or a trailer with a heavy load. Not going to happen, you still have added weight to the towing vehicle also by the tongue weight. That alone just increased stopping distance for the tow vehicle.

http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/trailer/th110.htm

Edited September 15, 2020 by MLBurns

[gregtay]

2 hours ago, MLBurns said:

I have a 2 axle trailer with a 247 on it and have had to "hard" brake at 70+ mph on highway. The tires will eventually lock up and you still have weight pushing on the vehicle just like you would if you had a comparable load on a 2 axle trailer with elec brakes. If what you are saying was true, then you would have the same stopping distance with or without towing the boat or a trailer with a heavy load. Not going to happen, you still have added weight to the towing vehicle also by the tongue weight. That alone just increased stopping distance for the tow vehicle.

http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/trailer/th110.htm

All good points.. and yes, once you lock up the trailer then things start to go sideways.  I wasn't saying there was no additional load on the TV... simply that it wasn't as high of a load that a 1/2 ton shouldn't be able to manage it in a stopping situation (if it is a properly equippted 1/2 ton.)

 

[granddaddy55]

On 8/10/2020 at 1:57 PM, wedge88 said:

Do you have the 3.5L or 2.7L Eco?  I wouldn't hesitate to tow a 25LSV with a 3.5L Eco but would want higher rear ends, if possible.  Had a 2014 (3.73 and 3.5L Eco) for many years and still one of my favorite trucks to drive.  Our A22, at the time, was probably one of the lightest things I towed with that truck.  

I can't keep up with the Ford models and engine offerings.  I know the King Ranch used to be 3.5L standard but that could have changed in the newer models.

 

 

2.7 with the 3.73 is a beast

[Texan32]

21 hours ago, gregtay said:

SAE J2807 was designed to take the guess work out of the equation.  In the past rating were marketing hype, today they actually represent what a truck can do, and do safely.  If a truck is rated to a tow capacity then it has demonstrated that it is in control and can stop a load at that capacity.  If Ford designed an F150 to safely pull 12,000 then there is no reason not to do it. Same if you want to pull 35,000 pounds with an F350. You can't be dumb when towing.. but that goes for anytime you have anything behind you, regardless of how much it weighs.  

 

https://fifthwheelst.com/SAE-J2807-Tow-Tests.html

this is not the actual SAE spec sheet, nor is it the most current edition of J2807.  But it provides the meat and potatoes of what the rating encompasses.  Couple things that stuck out.  Level ground speed test is 60mph. 12% grade speed test is 40mph (35 for dually).  Braking.....braking is only measured from 20mph to full stop.  The testing also makes no longevity claims...just that there were no mechanical failures during the testing.

We all have variations to our Tow/Towed vehicle setup.  We all have our own desired level of comfort/confidence.  Some are more cautious than others.  Some dont mind pushing the "limits".  Assuming the Tow/Towed vehicle are both mechanically safe/sound and you are within the rated tow capacity (under GCWR), its really driver's choice/decision.

[jwl019]

On 8/10/2020 at 5:19 PM, RyanB said:

 

Is a 2500 truck really that much bigger than an F150 - so much so that it wouldn't fit in a parking garage?

Not too long ago, I was looking at the F250 Tremor and a Ram Megacab, neither would fit height wise in my garage when I brought home during the test drive.  My leveled Tundra has about 2.5" to spare.

One option I have not found to try yet is the Ram with factory air ride suspension.

Also, not sure if the Chevy/GMC is any shorter in height.

[gregtay]

20 hours ago, RyanB said:

@gregtay After my recent towing experience, I am a little........cynical........ about the J2807 tests.

Short history is I have a RAM 3500 that tows the boat great.  But there are times when I tow it with an SUV.  I had a 2011 GMC Yukon Denali XL that I was never happy with.  It was rated to tow 7800 pounds (maybe that was pre SAE ratings?).  It was replaced with a 2019 Expedition MAX with the max tow package (9200 pounds rating), following SAE guidelines.

My boat was 6200 pounds when I first bought it (I did weigh it).  Add fuel, gear, lead and the like, I am sure I am at 7000 pounds.

The Ex is a significant improvement over the Yukon, but towing back from Lake Powell last weekend, air temps in the upper 70's, low 80's, the transmission temp once again reached 240* eastbound I70 over Vail pass and the east approach to Eisnenhower tunnel.  That wasn't hot enough to give a transmission fluid light (I did get that on the Yukon), it was hot enough to get to the top of the gauge, right next to where it turns yellow.

I see NO WAY that I could tow another 2200 pounds and not overheat the transmission.

I've towed at or above max tow ratings before, and it isn't a relaxing experience.  My current position is that even with the SAE tow ratings, those numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.......

I am surprised that both GM and Ford seem to still have issues with the Tahoe/Expedition being reliable tow vehicles (meaning with no basic issues like tranny overheats.)  I have read multiple times on TMC that both suffer from tranny issues when doing heavy towing.  Do they have a max towing package to help out? Seems to me these should be capable of towing heavy loads without issues... or at least make it an option to spec it out to tow (since that might not matter for everyone.)  I am hoping the new Tahoe is better at towing and fingers crossed that the Grand Wagoneer also does this right.  What is strange to me is that for the last 10 years I have towed my 23LSVs with a Touareg, Q7, and now I tow my 2019 with my Durango.  I tow over Stevens Pass (4000 ft over the Cascade mountains) and I have never had a tranny issue.  I can toss up multiple gauges on my screen and I watch oil temp, coolant temp, and tranny temp when I get into the climb.  Labor day weekend it was 80+ on the pass and I still didn't see the gauges move much: coolant temp will creep up 10 degrees before the thermostat opens up more and then it comes back down.  Oil temp climbs 20-30 degrees when in the steepest sections and my tranny temps only comes up maybe 10-15 degrees.  This is while towing 7000+ lbs at 55-60 MPH.  Same ZF 8 speed tranny in my wifes car which we also use to tow with.  My previous tow rigs had the 6 speed version of the ZF and again I never had any tranny issues. So just wondering if it is just a week tranny in the GM/Fords (or the ZF is just that superior in comparison.)  I would really like to get the new Tahoe but not willing to trade reliability or sign up for towing issues. :-/  Just always seemed strange to me that the smaller SUVs I have been towing with have higher tow ratings than the full sized SUVs and they also seem to actually be more reliable doing the job.

Edited September 16, 2020 by gregtay

[MLBurns]

49 minutes ago, gregtay said:

I am surprised that both GM and Ford seem to still have issues with the Tahoe/Expedition being reliable tow vehicles (meaning with no basic issues like tranny overheats.)  I have read multiple times on TMC that both suffer from tranny issues when doing heavy towing.  Do they have a max towing package to help out? Seems to me these should be capable of towing heavy loads without issues... or at least make it an option to spec it out to tow (since that might not matter for everyone.)  I am hoping the new Tahoe is better at towing and fingers crossed that the Grand Wagoneer also does this right.  What is strange to me is that for the last 10 years I have towed my 23LSVs with a Touareg, Q7, and now I tow my 2019 with my Durango.  I tow over Stevens Pass (4000 ft over the Cascade mountains) and I have never had a tranny issue.  I can toss up multiple gauges on my screen and I watch oil temp, coolant temp, and tranny temp when I get into the climb.  Labor day weekend it was 80+ on the pass and I still didn't see the gauges move much: coolant temp will creep up 10 degrees before the thermostat opens up more and then it comes back down.  Oil temp climbs 20-30 degrees when in the steepest sections and my tranny temps only comes up maybe 10-15 degrees.  This is while towing 7000+ lbs at 55-60 MPH.  Same ZF 8 speed tranny in my wifes car which we also use to tow with.  My previous tow rigs had the 6 speed version of the ZF and again I never had any tranny issues. So just wondering if it is just a week tranny in the GM/Fords (or the ZF is just that superior in comparison.)  I would really like to get the new Tahoe but not willing to trade reliability or sign up for towing issues. :-/  Just always seemed strange to me that the smaller SUVs I have been towing with have higher tow ratings than the full sized SUVs and they also seem to actually be more reliable doing the job.

The new 10 speed Ford and GM developed together seems to do just fine with temps. I recently made a 4 hr trip towing the 247 in 100+ heat at 80 mph and trans did just fine. This was with a 2019 Chevy 1500 6.2/10 speed.

[SurfinLSV2021]

On 9/15/2020 at 9:08 AM, gregtay said:

SAE J2807 was designed to take the guess work out of the equation.  In the past rating were marketing hype, today they actually represent what a truck can do, and do safely.  If a truck is rated to a tow capacity then it has demonstrated that it is in control and can stop a load at that capacity.  If Ford designed an F150 to safely pull 12,000 then there is no reason not to do it. Same if you want to pull 35,000 pounds with an F350. You can't be dumb when towing.. but that goes for anytime you have anything behind you, regardless of how much it weighs.  

 

All of these towing capacities are based on using a weight distribution hitch to take weight off the truck. Without one, they all Max out at 500lbs tongue weight and 5000lbs trailer weight. My 2021 LSV trailer uses the surge brake, so a weight distribution hitch cannot be used. 

[RyanB]

2 hours ago, SurfinLSV2021 said:

Without one, they all Max out at 500lbs tongue weight and 5000lbs trailer weight

Not true.  I know that RAM does not require WDH to be above 500/5000.  Pretty sure that the new Fords are that way as well.

2 hours ago, SurfinLSV2021 said:

My 2021 LSV trailer uses the surge brake, so a weight distribution hitch cannot be used. 

I believe that there is at least one system that will work with surge brakes, if you want to go that way.  Or you can upgrade to electric (which I did, and is great!).  That said, I've towed a lot of miles, and been in a lot of launch ramp parking lots, and I have never seen a boat with WDH.  

[DFW]

From the 2021 Ford Towing Guide. Max 500lbs Tongue/5000lbs Trailer w/o Weight Distribution. If you choose to do it, and I certainly have, you are doing so outside of the manufacturers rated capacity.

Edited December 29, 2021 by DFW

[RyanB]

I stand corrected. I guess that is why I’m more of a RAM guy. No such restrictions. 

[dlb]

You might want to check this out. https://www.gmc.com/content/dam/gmc/na/us/english/index/about/trailering-towing/02-pdfs/03-pdfs/GMTB21CT100_2021_GMC_Trailering Guide_DIGITAL.pdf

Lots of tow ratings that don’t require a WDH and will easily tow a boat.

[dlb]

If you will die without a blue oval, order a Lightening.

[DFW]

14 hours ago, dlb said:

You might want to check this out. https://www.gmc.com/content/dam/gmc/na/us/english/index/about/trailering-towing/02-pdfs/03-pdfs/GMTB21CT100_2021_GMC_Trailering Guide_DIGITAL.pdf

Lots of tow ratings that don’t require a WDH and will easily tow a boat.

The GM Towing Charts clearly state "Maximum trailering ratings are intended for comparison purposes only, before you buy a vehicle or use it for trailering, carefully review the trailering section of the owners manual".

From page 297 and 298 of the 2021 GMC Sierra/Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Owners Manual.

At least the WDH threshold is 7000lbs instead 5000lbs over in Blue Oval land. 7000lbs includes a lot more Malibu's than 5000lbs does. In my case both of the Malibu's I have owned (17 24MXZ & 22 25LSV) and towed with 1/2 Ton trucks scale well north of 7000lbs.