help! alternator whine (and other electrical buzzing when boat is off) is making me crazy!

[shawndoggy]

So I've been battling alternator whine in my tower speakers for the last few years.

2016 Axis T22

System: 

Headunit: Kicker KMC 20

EQ: Wetsounds WS420

Tower Speakers: Wetsounds Rev 8 (two pair, run in parallel (i,e. two 2-ohm channels, each with two speakers per channel)

Tower Amp: current: Arc Audio KS 300.2 (previously Wetsounds HT2).

Ground -- 0awg to same battery as 00 factory ground from engine block -- to three way RF factory distro block.

Positive -- 0awg from  blue sea 5511e Dual Circuit Plus Add a Battery Switch to three way RF factory distro block / factory 00 to same switch

Factory ground from block to batteries is to bare metal (filed myself to make sure it's bare metal).

Headunit and EQ power from positive distro block to EQ

Headunit and EQ ground from negative distro block to EQ

Tower power and ground from same distro block

Tower amp will make alternator whine with or without RCAs plugged in (suggesting whine is not being caused by EQ)

When engine IS NOT running, tower speakers will make noise if blower is turned on.

Things I've tried:

1.  clean all grounding points with a file, tighten all.

2,  switch out EQs with clarion eqs746 (still get whine)

3. switch out tower amps (from WS HT2 to Arc Audio KS 300.2) (the arc sounds better cranked, but still makes whining noise). So I don't think the problem is the amp.

4. replace all factory ground and positive wires going into and out of factory distro blocks (0awg in; 4awg to each amp)

5. run new power and ground wire to EQ

6. change out RCAs to EQ from HU, from EQ to tower speaker amp.

The ONLY thing that I can think of that I have not tried is to replace the tower speaker wiring.  I understand that an inadvertently grounded or shorting tower speaker wire could cause issues, but would it cause the same noise in both channels of the tower speaker amp?

I'm going absolutely insane here.  can someone give me some ideas on how to attack this in a systematic way?  @David, @MLA, @philwsailz, and anybody else with some tips, please let me know what I should be looking at?

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by shawndoggy

[st22eve]

In both my Axis boats, 16 A20 and 18 T22 I had WS420 ground and black box grounds going straight into the amp ground connections and the amps were grounded straight to the neg side of battery. No ground touched a distribution block.....never had a whine in either boat.

[shawndoggy]

34 minutes ago, st22eve said:

In both my Axis boats, 16 A20 and 18 T22 I had WS420 ground and black box grounds going straight into the amp ground connections and the amps were grounded straight to the neg side of battery. No ground touched a distribution block.....never had a whine in either boat.

Thanks Steve.  I've got plenty of black 4awg.  I'll put that on my list of things to try.

[MLA]

Was the noise there prior to the first piece of aftermarket equipment going in? Did the noise appear out of no where or show up after work was done on the system. 

If the amp generates the noise with the RCA out, this points toward the amp and eliminates up stream. Take a short pair of RCA and plug them into the amp and a female x female RCA connector and jump the RCA ends together. This shorts the inputs and prevents the open RCA from acting as an antenna. 

[justgary]

Are you sure the alternator is working correctly?  If you have access to an oscilloscope, check to make sure the rectifier didn't blow a diode.

[shawndoggy]

3 hours ago, MLA said:

Was the noise there prior to the first piece of aftermarket equipment going in? Did the noise appear out of no where or show up after work was done on the system. 

If the amp generates the noise with the RCA out, this points toward the amp and eliminates up stream. Take a short pair of RCA and plug them into the amp and a female x female RCA connector and jump the RCA ends together. This shorts the inputs and prevents the open RCA from acting as an antenna. 

The noise has been around for a couple of years.  It was intermittent at first and seemed to go away and then come back.  I don't think it's the amp (i.e.a "bad" amp) because the factory amp and the replacement amp both do the same thing.  I mean I suppose that that's possible but it seems unlikely?

If I plug the RCAs together like that, what am I checking for and what conclusion will I draw depending on the result?

 

[shawndoggy]

5 minutes ago, justgary said:

Are you sure the alternator is working correctly?  If you have access to an oscilloscope, check to make sure the rectifier didn't blow a diode.

I am not, but no I don't have a scope.  The alternator does output voltage.  The fact that I will get some noise from the blower fan before I start the boat suggests that it might not be an alternator issue at all tho?

[geoffpdx]

[removed]

Edited July 15, 2020 by geoffpdx
Wetsounds has great customer service

[justgary]

26 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

If I plug the RCAs together like that, what am I checking for and what conclusion will I draw depending on the result?

Connecting them like that terminates both of them with a lower impedance.  I would think that you could get the same (if not better) results by making up RCA shorting plugs that use 500 ohm resistors (roughly; almost any low value above 100 ohms will do) to short the pin to the shield.  You should put one in every unused input in the system to make sure you don't have a high impedance antenna, like @MLA said.  The odds of actually having such an antenna are very low, but it's cheap and fun to plug the spare inputs.

I think the focus should be more on power input and low impedance connections for that.  It sounds like you have tried very hard to fix both.  Since it was intermittent at first, try checking the power connections you think couldn't be involved, like the key switch and the main power buss bar.

It may be worth taking the alternator apart and using your meter to test the diodes, or maybe take it to a shop that can spin it and watch with an oscilloscope.

[MLA]

8 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

If I plug the RCAs together like that, what am I checking for and what conclusion will I draw depending on the result?

If the noise is still there, then you have eliminated everything up stream of the amp. If the noise goes away, you eliminated from the amp to the speakers. 

Not saying its bad amp, just that this narrows it down to the amp as being the point of where the noise enters the system. 

[MLA]

@geoffpdx

Since your entire system, spread across 2 amps, emits the noise, this points to the Medallion Viper box as the point the noise is entering. Some of the same steps in this thread, can be used to narrow down the offender. 

[granddaddy55]

On 7/12/2020 at 9:02 PM, st22eve said:

In both my Axis boats, 16 A20 and 18 T22 I had WS420 ground and black box grounds going straight into the amp ground connections and the amps were grounded straight to the neg side of battery. No ground touched a distribution block.....never had a whine in either boat.

bingo!!!  i had every single pump, fan, heater, and alternator making noise

 fixed all of my power and grounds including the dash acc switch used for audio system to remote power/ground distribution  blocks on amp board with ground block and power block straight to battery with 0awg

for zero rgb noise , i ran the 2 controllers straight to battery with their own fuses and their switches sharing that rgb dedicated circuit  to isolate them from any noise source 

also never let rca source cables within 2.5-3ft of controllers 

i have a zero noise audio system with ir without music playing,  zero noise music playing or not from the rgb lights

snd for all you guys using relays to start your systems, all of my power outs for HU and BT RS are daisy chained to each other and then the EQ snd then each of  2 amps with zero starting issues , relays are built into the WS amps i think 

Edited July 15, 2020 by granddaddy55

[granddaddy55]

@shawndoggy

what turns on the EQ?, is it a dash switch wired to dash ground blocks or is it HU (that you have remotely wired)   remote power out?

Either my HU or  my BT RS will turn my EQ  on but the dash acc power switch for them is also remote wired to amp power/ground distro blocks on amp board

Do you have tower rgb’s?  if so are the source tower rca‘s near the controller

Edited July 15, 2020 by granddaddy55

[shawndoggy]

30 minutes ago, granddaddy55 said:

bingo!!!  i had every single pump, fan, heater, and alternator making noise

 fixed all of my power and grounds including the dash acc switch used for audio system to remote power/ground distribution  blocks on amp board with ground block and power block straight to battery with 0awg

If you read my post, you'd see this is how I'm set up (aside from the "direct to battery" positive -- my main positive to the distro block comes from my add-a-battery switch).

The EQ is turned on by my HU's remote out (along with the amps).  HU power/ground and EQ power/ground are both from the amp distro blocks (though I have also tried straight from the offending amp). 

Edited July 15, 2020 by shawndoggy

[granddaddy55]

5 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

If you read my post, you'd see this is how I'm set up (aside from the "direct to battery" power -- my main power to the distro block comes from my add-a-battery switch).

The EQ is turned on by my HU's remote out (along with the amps).  HU power/ground and EQ power/ground are both from the amp distro blocks (though I have also tried straight from the offending amp). 

yes i read, but on a 16 what turns the system on?  on my 14 its one of my remote wired acc dash toggle switches

is a 16 menu driven turn on? a switch,?  is that switched circuit remote power/ground? ir just on when battery switch is on?

Edited July 15, 2020 by granddaddy55

[granddaddy55]

something is not remote power snd ground to battery two if you have alt noise 

even if my batt switch is off my stereo turns on from the dash acc switch because everything is remote  

Edited July 15, 2020 by granddaddy55

[MLA]

Its super rare that the head unit's IGN circuit is the source of noise, as it does not power the head unit, simply wakes it up, much like the remote turn-on out to the amps. Easy enough to eliminate by separating it from the boat harness and wire it to the head units yellow.

However, I do not recall the unit shawn has, as being a typical 3 wire power harness, but only 2. It uses EEPROM for memory, so no need for the typical yellow MEM/constant. Just a switched IGN from the key switch or rocker and GND. 

So you would want to make absolutely sure that that 12V source was indeed common with the rest of the audio. A key switch would likely draw from the cranking bank and helm rocker would likely be drawing from the helm BUS. Even though thats from the house battery, its too far removed to be good for audio.  

What throws a wrinkle into this, is the fact that the noise is only emitting from speakers powered by one amp. If the head's switched B+ was the source of the noise, we would expect all amps to emit the noise.  

[shawndoggy]

It came hard wired from the factory to the battery switch.  Battery switch on, HU on.  Can turn it on and off with the power button on the face of the HU.  I did move the factory power and ground from wherever they connect with to from in the factory harness to the power/ground on the distro block in my quest for noise reduction. But it hasn't changed the operation of the stereo.  It has never been hooked to or governed by the key... even from the factory.

[shawndoggy]

25 minutes ago, MLA said:

However, I do not recall the unit shawn has, as being a typical 3 wire power harness, but only 2. It uses EEPROM for memory, so no need for the typical yellow MEM/constant. Just a switched IGN from the key switch or rocker and GND. 

That's correct -- no yellow.  Just black (ground) and red (positive).  Those wires are currently hooked to my amps' distro blocks.

[shawndoggy]

I just ran out to the boat with a hopeful epiphany.  In the past I've used a circuit breaker on the main power wire to the distro block.  I thought maybe a loose nut or bad breaker could be the culprit.  Unfortunately on this one I just have the distro block fused with a simple anl fuse block.  It's all super tight and covered and clean.

[Nitrousbird]

Being that you can duplicate it with the blower and the motor off, to me that rules out anything with the alternator.

I would first start with taking some sort of other source unit, powered by a battery not connected at all to the boat's wiring, and hook into the input of the tower amp.  That will at least rule out anything with the source unit up to the amp and let you focus your effort from there.

[shawndoggy]

I'm bumping this up because it's still driving me insane.

Recap: with the boat NOT running I get a loud buzzing in my tower speakers.  The buzzing changes (and gets significantly worse) when I turn the blower on.  other accessories will also change the pitch of the buzzing (like ballast pumps).  But the blower seems to be the worst.  I also get an alternator whine when the boat is running, but it doesn't seem to change pitch with RPMs.  Just "yet another" noise.

 

SYMPTOMS: buzzing in tower speakers (the cabins also do this very faintly but it's the towers that are super noticeable and are driving me insane).  The sound changes pitch with accessories, worst with blower.  Also some alternator noise.  When RCAs are disconnected from the tower amp, the sound goes away.  This initially let me to think that the issue was the source unit, however, the sound persists between different EQs.  Seems unlikely to be bad luck on multiple source units?

 

Current setup:

1.  I am running 3 amps (JL HD 750/1 for sub; Arc KS300.2 for tower; WS Syn4 for cabins).  

2. Source: Arc Audio KEQ5, being fed by JL Audio MBT RX bt dongle.  I've removed the Kicker "black box" from the boat and have disconnected all previously connected cables (including CAN plug).  

3. All power and ground wires are new.  B+ comes from a Blue Sea Add-a-Battery switch to an ANL fuse holder, to a fused distro block.  Ground is from one of the batteries to the distro block.  The EQ and MBT-RX are now turned on via a dash switch, which draw power from the amps' distro block.  This switch also powers the amps' remote turn on lead.

4. RCA interconnects are all new.  (Kicker KI46 x 2).

5. All ground connections at the block have been recently sanded, and I've sanded the block's ground connection to bare metal.  It gleams.  Connections are tight.

 

Things I've tried:

1.  New grounding stud in engine compartment, with direct run to  battery.  Have grounded surfgate and blower to this stud.  No change (blower still makes a ton of noise.  When the blower is disconnected from ground, the symptoms are better, but only because they can't get worse because of the blower running.

2. Sprayed contact cleaner on all of the deutsch and weatherpack connectors I can find. No appreciable difference.

3. Disconnected and reconnected each grounded accessory under the dash to see if there is improvement.  

4. PAC SNI-1 ground loop filter (I'm desperate here guys!) on the RCAs feeding the tower amp.  The buzzing is slightly reduced, but still quite noticeable.  Its an improvement, but maybe a 10-15% improvement.  

5. 10 Amp Inline Power Noise Suppressor Filter on the power feeding the dash switch / MBT-RX / EQ.  Made no difference.

6. a second 10 Amp Inline Power Noise Suppressor Filter on the power feeding EQ (after the dash switch, directly before the EQ).  Made no difference.

7. Newmar 150A alternator noise filter.  This I intentionally installed incorrectly (for ease of installation).  It's between my battery switch and my distribution block, rather than being installed directly near the alternator as the Newmar instructions suggest.  Made zero difference (but could be because of my improper installation).  

8. Grounded EQ chassis (ring terminal on mounting bracket, with wire running to EQ ground (have read about this improving noisy car stereos).  Made no difference.

9. Removed promariner 20 battery charger from batteries.  no difference.

 

Things I haven't tried because they seem like low probability fixes:

1. Replacing ground wire feeding factory helm grounding block from batteries (and maybe grounding this directly to the block rather than the batteries?).

2. Replacing 00 Gauge ground wire from batteries to block (and maybe B+ too?).  This is expensive and I don't really have any confidence.

3. Replacing batteries (this seems like a VERY expensive solution with little probability of success, but batteries are five years old and are probably due for preemptive replacement at this point anyway).

4. Re-wiring tower speakers

5. Installing a power noise suppressor on the power and ground feeding the blower.

6. Trying a different ground loop isolator?

7. Removing alternator and having a local shop scope it as @justgary suggests.  I've convinced myself that it's not an alternator issue because the sound is present when the boat isn't running, though I do get some alternator wine too.

 

 

Things worth considering (???)

1.  Throwing in the towel and having a local "pro" look at it.  I called the local go-to stereo shop, and the owner was nice enough to speak to me for 20 minutes.  Over the phone he thought I'd already tried all of the easy stuff and he cautioned me that he might conclude that he couldn't get rid of the noise.  I still booked the appt. because I need a sanity check with someone else who knows what they are looking at.  This shop is a WS dealer and does 2 boats a week in addition to cars, but isn't what I'd consider a "marine specialist."  I think owner would admit that too.

2.  Towing boat over to Sacramento area to have a "real" pro look at it (recommendations?).

3.  Adding a second stereo battery (3 total) and removing stereo bank from charging system altogether.  Would 2 group 29 deep cycles be enough to run the stereo for a whole day?  Mostly moderate, but probably 1.5 hours of cranking with people behind the boat.  If not, how many batteries would we need? Would also lose the "stereo" bank as a backup battery source to the house battery which isn't desirable.  But I'm friggin desperate here, and the cost doesn't actually seem all that bad vs. the frustration and further time investment.

4. Burning boat to the ground and making an insurance claim (I jest, I jest!).

5. But really, burn the boat?

[mxr181]

I am having pretty much exact same issue.  I found continuity between the main stereo / amp ground cable (completely disconnected from batteries) and the ground lug on the fuse board / medallion box.  If I disconnect the stereo head unit I no longer have full continuity BUT it doesn’t read open either (I’m seeing about 190ohm).  Have not had a chance to continue chasing it but I’m pretty sure that is causing the noise although I don’t understand why it’s only on the tower speakers.  One thought is the tower speaker RCA’s run through the sub amp so possibly an issue there…prob going to try swapping sub & tower speaker amps as I have other amps.  If you figure yours out PLEASE post what you find!  If I figure mine out I will definitely do the same.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by mxr181

[MLA]

Shawn, 

Is the noise entering the system between the BT and EQ or between the EQ and amps? Cut the system in sections so to speak. 

Also, you state that a rocker is turning on the BT, EQ and amps. Is this 12V supplying the operating voltage to the BT and EQ or just a 12V "wake up" signal like an amp needs?

You state the rocker gets its "power" from the amp distribution blocks. Is this 12V+ and 12V- or just 12V+? This is crucial and needs to be clear. 12V DC requires both circuits, so there is technically no "power" unless both are present. If the switch is only supplying the 12V+, there where do the BT and EQ get their 12V- from. 

[shawndoggy]

34 minutes ago, MLA said:

Shawn, 

Is the noise entering the system between the BT and EQ or between the EQ and amps? Cut the system in sections so to speak. 

99% sure it's the EQ.  I will double check tonight, but I think it's the same effect whether or not the BT is plugged into the EQ.  The same sound was present when the factory stereo was the input to the EQ too.

Quote

Also, you state that a rocker is turning on the BT, EQ and amps. Is this 12V supplying the operating voltage to the BT and EQ or just a 12V "wake up" signal like an amp needs?

Power out of switch goes to (operating voltage and remote turn on) EQ, (operating voltage only -- this dongle doesn't have a remote turn on, and is "always on) MBT-RX, and to amp turn on lead.  At the EQ, I've combined the remote turn on input and the operating voltage B+ for obvs reasons (dash switch switch turns it on).

Quote

You state the rocker gets its "power" from the amp distribution blocks. Is this 12V+ and 12V- or just 12V+? This is crucial and needs to be clear. 12V DC requires both circuits, so there is technically no "power" unless both are present. If the switch is only supplying the 12V+, there where do the BT and EQ get their 12V- from.

Sorry should have been clearer!  I've run three conductor wire from the amps to the dash.  B+ (green) and B- (black) go from amp distro blocks to dash switch.  Output of switch supplies B+ to MBT-RX, EQ, and amp turn on (white on the 3 conductor wire).  the B- (black) that goes to the switch (needed so LED on toggle switch will light) is split at the switch to also go to EQ and MBT-RX B- inputs. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by shawndoggy