M240 vs NAUTIQUE G23 Paragon vs ?

[TenTwentyOne]

30 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

What yacht?  Their prices seem to be escalating as fast or faster than wake boats when I am at the boat shows.  I am amazed at the number of just bow riders with a toilet that sticker well north of $200K.  

This...

A loaded 38’ mini-yacht will have a MSRP of more than double that.

[greg2222]

what I can say , G23P and M240 are great boats , and both have almost the same wake and wave. There is a things better on M240 and things better on G23P . But design of M240 compared to G23P is dated , G23P telescopic tower is out of this world , I'm don't know why nobody figure that before ??  If you got hit with storm on the lake (like me few times) you lower the tower  , when sun is on the horizon you lower the tower , when you want go fast you lower the tower - functionality of the tower is insane. 

About the price - G23P is around $20k more then M240. 

BUT for about the same price you can buy this - https://buildmy.searay.com/build/DA320

[hethj7]

So, tell us more!  You have been in both now?

 

And I configured my sea ray with what I assume would be some must have options on a boat like that - approaching $400K on the build.  Okay, more “affordable” than I thought, but still quite a jump from the P23 and M240.  

[23LSVOwner]

14 hours ago, greg2222 said:

what I can say , G23P and M240 are great boats , and both have almost the same wake and wave. There is a things better on M240 and things better on G23P . But design of M240 compared to G23P is dated , G23P telescopic tower is out of this world , I'm don't know why nobody figure that before ??  If you got hit with storm on the lake (like me few times) you lower the tower  , when sun is on the horizon you lower the tower , when you want go fast you lower the tower - functionality of the tower is insane. 

About the price - G23P is around $20k more then M240. 

BUT for about the same price you can buy this - https://buildmy.searay.com/build/DA320

Having experience with moveable towers with several manufactures I see the telescoping one being a warranty nightmare.

[TenTwentyOne]

5 hours ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Having experience with moveable towers with several manufactures I see the telescoping one being a warranty nightmare.

I think that depends a lot on what CC is using to actuate it. I have certainly seen a fair share of issues with electric actuators on towers. Supra is having tons of issues on their new tower.

MC learned their lesson back in 2011, and switched to hydraulic actuated towers, and those have been bulletproof.

[Cole2001]

316k for a surf boat, no, no, no. That boat in Canada would be 500k msrp after taxes. Better off buying a yacht so you have somewhere to live when your wife finds out. 

[RTR]

OK ... so I am facing this dilemma right now...  have a P25 spec'd out and on order ... but a M240 just came in and now looking at that.   The other boat I looked at for those wanting a yacht was a Pavati 26 ... actually yacht certified.  

Had demo's a P23 earlier in the summer when there was no M240 to demo around ... and decided to go with the P25.    Moved away from Pavati only because there are no dealers in the area and there WILL be something go wrong ...its only a matter of when (not if) with a boat.

Here was my take away..

Paragon ... Pro's - interior "feels" more spacious and well thought out... storage is very well thought out, boat cleats and board racks are great design...  and yes, the tower is super cool.. the paragons also have rear facing seats (something they copied from Pavati)  and those are super cool.   The P also has a nice walk thru to the rear deck that will definitely help keep people from stepping on the seats and ripping the seams over time...   The P surf system seems less likely to be subject to mechanical failure than the surf gates .. the wave on the P runs more to the "outside" of the boat ...P has trim tab instead of wedge to help boat ride "flatter" so the nose is down.   Con's -  that same walk thru on the rear of the P allows water to rush over/thru the rear transom if you pull throttle to neutral too fast when a surfer goes down... so have to be conscious of that ... all those diamond facet looking edges on the hull of the P are really to move water in a design to maximize the amount of flow going over the gates to build wave ... but supposedly the P porpoises pretty bad when empty and on plane when near/over 30mph... gonna see if can get this condition tomorrow.   

Malibu ... Pro's  ... I have been running a 2014 MXZ 24'  so I am partial to the Malibu wave .. so I think the M wave is nicer ... but going to double check this with one day apart on riding each tomorrow.  Ballast tanks on M are way faster to fill... and can control fill better  Wave isn't likely to come over nose as bad as previous models and definitely isn't coming over the transom  Cons -  tower is not as cool, bimini top from dealer is way undersized, doesn't have the rear seats facing backwards, doesn't have walk through on back (but also a pro),  still feels like the "same interior" layout as my 2014 .. with a few new things like the Yeti slide out, trash receptacle, better placement of the batteries to get them up in nose area and not in storage compartment,

Concerns ... my current MXZ ... trim on inside was not well done in 2014 ... plastic not secured well, speaker holders, dash, etc...  also have had a lot of issues with my surf system ... but that it the Lenco modules and rams ... M moved away from Lenco so maybe this will not be issue on new ones...  Nautique is still using Lenco so am I in for the same problem??? 

Things that are equal ... both heavy as  and built like a brick house so they really bust through rough water and give a smooth ride.   Both have same engine ~600+HP..  

Pricing ... well.... yea that is an issue ...   MSRP on the P came in at $348K and on M at $308K ..   Pavati is closer to $375K but seems to be a whole different level ... if it wasn't for the fact there is not dealer around here.. I might have done that...   so M vs P on MSRP is a $40K delta ... but the negotiated price is closer to a $70K delta ...   

I have no idea what I am going to do...  such a difficult decision.   Was hoping to find something here... 

 

 

[Five Cent Worth]

9 hours ago, RTR said:

I have no idea what I am going to do...  such a difficult decision.   Was hoping to find something here... 

Welcome to the forum.  Certainly some first world problems. 

Looking forward to following!

[greg2222]

Difficult decision for sure , I think if you have $350 for Paragon and you have all others toys At home go for it but if you have $350 you can buy M and Tesla for your wife and you will be still on best boat on The market. Both m240 and G25P are best in class .
I did the same 10 months ago and I’m with M240 plus Tesla for my wife!
about Pavati- before you decide do demo first after riding M and P.

[cmargosi]

If ugly is a consideration, the Pavati would seem to be disqualified immediately.  I saw one on the lake the other day and while it was cool from a novelty standpoint, I found it pretty darned ugly.  That being said, if you were looking to scare the neighbors you could have it painted dark grey, load it up with Navy Seals and storm the shoreline, so that's a plus.

I can't decide how I feel about the Paragon styling, but when I demo'd G's vs. my 23 LSV, I found it hard to justify the price difference and the wave on the Bu was better.  Also a factor was that my local dealer with the Malibu's makes deals but the Nautique dealer is stingy on discounts due to the fact that there's a bunch of people on my lake who just write the check to have the most expensive boat....

All that being said, my guess is you can't go wrong with either.  I was looking at upgrade to M240 as potential but the weight counts me out due to the fact that I'm in a dry marina that launches boat and tows with tractors.  So maybe I'll look at 23 or 24 MXZ.

[cmargosi]

However the rear seats on the Paragon are really trick.  Even nicer than the ones on the Pavati.  They look like sun loungers.  REALLY cool.

[TenTwentyOne]

@RTR You dodged a bullet by not buying the Pavati......

 performance is laughable for the price, and reliability is absolutely terrible. Also equally as terrible, is the resale on a Pavati.

Much better off with a M240 or P25

[LucasC]

I would add Ri 245 or Ri265 in the mix.   surfwave hard to beat and can surf in rougher water . build quality comparable to malibu   . Never been on a Pavati but definitely the baddest looking wake boat. 

[IXFE]

1 hour ago, LucasC said:

I would add Ri 245 or Ri265 in the mix.   surfwave hard to beat and can surf in rougher water . build quality comparable to malibu 

That’s debatable...

[RTR]

Well....   I decided to go with the P25.   I demo'd the M240 and P25 ...   Little sad to move away from Malibu ... but have to say ... The P just killed it in so many dimensions... had two major flaws..  #1 ...Price   #2 M240 crazy fast filling the tanks ... apart from those two things ... I knew I would just be having regret if I didn't go with the P just to save the money.    I asked myself... if they were the same price, which would I buy...  so  went with the P.    I had also heard the P's had issues porpoising when around 30 ...  It took me a while to get the P to porpoise on the demo (but I did...)   but I had to get to about 32 and then hit a couple of waves in succession and it finally started to mildly porpoise ... slowed it down to 25 it stopped and then brought it back up to 30 without issue coming back.   But I mainly drive 25 or under if there is any chop anyway so I don't think this is a real deal breaker.

I will say that the M240 was solid as hell in rougher water..  I hit a wave coming of a M220 straight on at 25mph on the M240... and it launched the M240 but when it hit the water coming down there was no thud whatsoever.. it was just a nice soft landing and stayed completely stable... well done Malibu. 

I also liked the fact the P is 25.5 feet and capacity 19... I think either that extra foot or just the layout made it feel more spacious.

Good luck everyone and thanks for all the comments...    I now have to go look at how to replace the ram on my goofy side surf gate...   been giving me fits all summer and replaced module twice (Lenco no longer supporting so having to get rebuilt ones..) still having issues to gonna change the ram on the gate..

 

[The Hulk]

The P interior is great much larger and feels like it's way better used than newer Malibus that have shrunk in size from wider seats and wasted room backrest area and floor space. The Ms are closer to the P buy the build quality of the P is pretty darn good when you start looking under the hatch.

The tower as mentioned.. wow..so nice.. flimsy camera thing is a joke.. 

Looked at P25 fully loaded (somewhat funny because that's what they basically are)  and was informed would be a solid 280k purchase price.had additional 6k sub.. and this is roughly 23-40k over P23 . Sadly I realized I'd be in for 200k after selling my 25lsv.. yikes

What I was concerned about and did not demo yet.. the G25 was known as a bad surf Boat and the P25 specs worry me slightly for not being any better than a 25lsv wave? In fact G25 is worse!! Seems the G/P25 are light and too flat bottom to displace enough water. Guessing you could sac them out but that's kind of the point if a G/P I shouldn't have to.

Ri265 is next to investigate why not a 267 though? Seems a bit odd to not go at least a full 1ft longer or did they revamp the 257 mold? Seems odd to have a 257/265 lineup not a huge difference and their buyers are probably the same person.. wondering if because similar issue as pavati and that it can be sunk from what an owner has revealed to me.. hard to do but I recall an owner mention it and sales rep warned him, something about maybe if a bunch of folks are in rear the  back the transom is low or could take on water or something else I forget but was surprised.. so maybe this is a revamp/fix??? Same as Malibus m235/m240 update?

Malibus in the works on their 27lsv 600hp budget boat and their flagship 29 lsv widebody yacht twin motor setup.. I can feel it! 

 I do feel like Malibu made strides back 6yrs ago with a monster 25lsv release but has dropped the ball and now has been surpassed in size by everyone else. 

 

[asnowman]

so we just saw a p23 in the wild for the first time. My wife says, "wtf is that stupid looking thing.... looks like a giant wake tractor....." i about fell over laughing, told her is the g23 polygon from nautique. She replied with "huh, they shouldn't have copied the wake tractor, that thing is ugly."

Just had to share, i found it so funny. 

In fairness, the interior was great, but it looks like a box in the water.

[The Hulk]

2 hours ago, asnowman said:

so we just saw a p23 in the wild for the first time. My wife says, "wtf is that stupid looking thing.... looks like a giant wake tractor....." i about fell over laughing, told her is the g23 polygon from nautique. She replied with "huh, they shouldn't have copied the wake tractor, that thing is ugly."

Just had to share, i found it so funny. 

In fairness, the interior was great, but it looks like a box in the water.

Does kinda look like a box! Too short! Same as the M235/240 stretch them out to 27+ and they would look waaaay better!

[UWSkier]

 

7 hours ago, asnowman said:

so we just saw a p23 in the wild for the first time. My wife says, "wtf is that stupid looking thing.... looks like a giant wake tractor....." i about fell over laughing, told her is the g23 polygon from nautique. She replied with "huh, they shouldn't have copied the wake tractor, that thing is ugly."

Just had to share, i found it so funny. 

In fairness, the interior was great, but it looks like a box in the water.

That's hilarious!  The Polygons are so friggin ugly...  Seriously, every Nautique designed in the last three years is just hideous.

I know it's going to be unpopular to say but so are the Malibu Ms.  The proportions are all wrong.  Like those really tall cruisers from the 80s that were only like 22 feet long.  The Ms look like someone was trying to print a photo of a boat but had the aspect ratio wrong on the printer and ended up with a squashed image.  Like if someone was printing a landscape photo in portrait orientation with "fill page" selected. 

The MXZ 23 and 24s, and LSV 23s and 25s have retained great aesthetics on the water by not having more freeboard than the Manila Maersk unloaded.

Edited August 24, 2020 by UWSkier

[Eagleboy99]

3 hours ago, asnowman said:

so we just saw a p23 in the wild for the first time. My wife says, "wtf is that stupid looking thing.... looks like a giant wake tractor....." i about fell over laughing, told her is the g23 polygon from nautique. She replied with "huh, they shouldn't have copied the wake tractor, that thing is ugly."

Just had to share, i found it so funny. 

In fairness, the interior was great, but it looks like a box in the water.

And people laugh at Heyday.

[asnowman]

2 hours ago, The Hulk said:

Does kinda look like a box! Too short! Same as the M235/240 stretch them out to 27+ and they would look waaaay better!

You know i am just waiting for a 27 lsv too. 

AND, i really wish they would go back to a more plush interior like in the 2016 era. 

[The Hulk]

1 minute ago, asnowman said:

You know i am just waiting for a 27 lsv too. 

AND, i really wish they would go back to a more plush interior like in the 2016 era. 

Amen on the interior, more comfortable! Less edgy. 

[The Hulk]

Guys Im on to something big! 

30ft, , can hold waaaay more ballast than anything on the market, unlimited engine options or go dual cheapos. Plush pontoon seating.. aftermarket tower. I think around$80k all in and with a good paint job nobody will be able to tell the difference between a M240 or a P25 !

[asnowman]

1 minute ago, The Hulk said:

Guys Im on to something big! 

30ft, , can hold waaaay more ballast than anything on the market, unlimited engine options or go dual cheapos. Plush pontoon seating.. aftermarket tower. I think around$80k all in and with a good paint job nobody will be able to tell the difference between a M240 or a P25 !

If we stack 2 on top of each other, you might really have something! Might even have enough freeboard!

[The Hulk]

3 minutes ago, asnowman said:

If we stack 2 on top of each other, you might really have something! Might even have enough freeboard!

Like your thinking make the bottom one full of ballast!

Edited August 24, 2020 by The Hulk