Boat Lift - AC vs DC Power

[MNNewb]

Long story short, we're buying a new lift.  One of the debates is how do we power it.  We have ac power running to the dock and the current motor.  Not sure if there will be enough juice when we upgrade.  Cost is relatively equal between AC and 24v DC w/solar charger.  

 

Specs:

Brands:  Max, Shoremaster are both winch and cable.  Shorestation is hydraulic and cable.  All come from reputable local dealers.

Size: 7000#

Electrical:  120v.  approximately 150-200 feet run from the house.  Guessing a 12ga wire, pretty sure not beefier than that

Concerns: our pellet grill would be on the same circuit.  Can we run the lift and keep cooking brisket at the same time?  Will the higher capacity motor needs have substantially higher power draw?  Will we have enough AC juice at the end of the line to run the new motor?

We're thinking ahead.  Don't need a #7k lift for the current boat but might for the next one.   Tired of problems and want to buy once, cry once.

  

[Michigan boarder]

You should be able to look up the amp draw from the old lift motor and compare it to the new lift motor.

[minnmarker]

If you have a south facing shoreline, or at least no trees shading your lifts then the solar way may be adequate - if you don't put the boat on/off the lift often, especially on cloudy days.  You may run out of battery power.

Not sure how much your grill draws but we have a 5000 lb. lift and a 4000 lb. lift on one 15 amp GFI circuit and can raise one boat and lower the other at the same time without tripping the breaker.

[23LSVOwner]

Get the DC with an AC charger.

 

[Slayer]

I was struggling with this decision this spring.  I ended up going with an AC lift because we have shore power and (2) circuits down there.  In my case, the cost was less going AC as well. 

[Sixball]

AC for me. I run 220 down and split a leg off for the lifts. I use 220 for pumping watering system.  The grill is only using power to dump pellets????  Don't think it would be much of a concern. I hate storing and charging all the battery's over the winter and moving them around.  

[Michigan boarder]

40 minutes ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Get the DC with an AC charger.

 

This is the answer!!  

[05hammerhead]

38 minutes ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Get the DC with an AC charger.

 

This.  24v is faster, can be run on solar or on a trickle charge.  Why not pure hydraulic?  Ive got a hewitt, and i really like it for a number of reasons.  1 - it was much less expensive.  2 - cables break 3 -  I can wedge a float under it and lift it up(by actually going down with the lift) in the fall for removal.  Then when I get it to the beach, I can use the battery to lift it back up and pull the float out without running a power cord.

[The Hulk]

regardless go DC: safer if you have people or children swimming around your shore! Also if your lake home is near a remote area and if you loose power after storms not worth it again. DC with PROPER sized solar will never let you down. 

Average AC motor pulls 10-15amps only takes 1/1000th of that to kill someone in fresh water, while it can be done safely its never 100% safe, , often lake power lines run down to the dock are not grounded properly, while they may seem to have a GFI on it they often are not done correctly or grounded fully or deep enough or lakes flood and things happen. 

Vertical Cable lifts: (slower) but little cheaper, if you go this route DO NOT do 12v its like watching grass grow, def go 24v!! about 2.5x faster than 12v: depending on the lifts most of these pull about 60-100 Amp at either 12 or 24v: normal group 24 size batteries are fine $65-75 at walmart

Hydraulic: ShoreStation is the FASTEST but more expensive. also keep in mind all SS lifts i think less than 10k lbs are all 12v power, they are POWER hungry and pull about 220-240Amps (recommend using larger group 27 size battery) $110-140 at walmart. SS has their nifty screen system for extra coverage! fancy, nice, and a bit pricey. 

Max: Heavier weight Lifts, but probably one of the strongest in the industry, much thicker aluminum extrusions: has very nice bumper /guide system, has deeper dish standard canopy and a NEW super deep dish for complete NON-motirized coverage without added screens that flap in the wind: you can get a ton of lift for the money. if you want the MOST coverage without added screens or motorized screens then look here. 

Shore-Master: lighter, and slightly less options, typically a bit cheaper than max but a VERY good option if wanting to save a few bucks, if you want extra coverage then you'll need to get some custom side curtains and figure a good way to support them so they dont flap in wind

Raptor lifts: New company worth checking out if your on super shallow lake and are limited on dock length, 0" water depth only for a vertical cable lift with this design, very unique and nifty!: The fastest vertical cable lift currently on market: extra side coverage will require screen add on or side curtains as of now. 

Shore-station: biggest brand name, one of the best,  the hydraulics are CRAZY fast lifting speed about 2-3X faster than 24v vertical cables, if on a very rough part of the lake and stabalizing within  a second or two is important look here. their motorized screen with revolution canopy is super nice and clean, however its also pretty expensive but you get what you pay for.

they all have their pros + minute cons, its more of what you want and options that start to separate. 

for a 7k i'd consider 8k may hardly be any more money from a lot of these brands and worth more resale down the road.

and for pete sake dont run AC power... yea its a bit cheaper if power is there but still not worth the risks... there are countless near misses every week and too many deaths each year from AC power in fresh water! 

 

[The Hulk]

aprox size chart 

best to over-estimate a bit for those holiday staycations and potential for cloudy weeks. you can never have to much solar your batteries will just always be fully topped off!

 

7k NO less than 30w. if your daily user then 40w

[minnmarker]

14 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

and for pete sake dont run AC power... yea its a bit cheaper if power is there but still not worth the risks... there are countless near misses every week and too many deaths each year from AC power in fresh water!

Never heard of a death in my area due to electricity.  Several drownings due to teenagers who can't swim who are too embarrassed to tell their hosts, and they get in just a bit too deep (lots of drop offs).

And testing a GFI breaker is not so hard.  Just short hot to ground using a trouble lamp.  Never had an issue in 30 years.  Not that we really have an option because of a North facing shoreline and trees.

Actually, we use 2 GFIs.  One in the panel and one at the outlet by the dock.

[Nitrousbird]

I wouldn't worry about the Pellet Grill.  They don't draw a lot.  You are really only running the electronics, auger, convection fan and a little ignitor to get the pellets burning.  It isn't drawing any power for heat.

[UWSkier]

Only thing if you do go AC is remember to unplug it when you're not using it.  Our first lift control panel got fried when lightning struck the power pole up on the hillside which grounded through our lift.  GFI popped, but not in time to save the board.  That was a real pain to discover when the lake had that post-storm glassy water and the boat lift wouldn't respond to the remote control.

[The Hulk]

3 hours ago, minnmarker said:

Never heard of a death in my area due to electricity.  Several drownings due to teenagers who can't swim who are too embarrassed to tell their hosts, and they get in just a bit too deep (lots of drop offs).

And testing a GFI breaker is not so hard.  Just short hot to ground using a trouble lamp.  Never had an issue in 30 years.  Not that we really have an option because of a North facing shoreline and trees.

Actually, we use 2 GFIs.  One in the panel and one at the outlet by the dock.

Hardly takes much solar for a boat lift, trees and shading may require something tiny bit larger like 2ft x 2ft 40w panel in size is all.

Nearly all ESD deaths are ruled drownings,  'swimers who cramped up" not hair dryer in the bathtub here.. no symptoms and intermittent stray voltage into water and sometimes only during wave activity or when cradle of a lift hit water, 100s of split instant scenarios. one problem is majority of docks are not grounded correctly only portions of it, same with nearly all the motors and lift systems,  most without any UL rating but they are wired and often considered temp devices that should be unplugged when not in use to comply with code

 Most marinas /slips replace several gfis each month or every few weeks thus why their required  to have posted no swimming signs as chances are one is always bad.

Your life is in hand of a $30 china part not failing and they unfortunately do quite frequently.. most docks are wired by a NON ABYC certified marine electrical joe Bob contractor or homeowner 

You also are relying on your neighbors dock and wiring if less than 200ft away,  yikes!

There is a popular lake that has 85-90% of docks with stray voltage in the water yet all docks are wired to code, ppl have died and NEC codes were followed, AC over water always a risk. 

[The Hulk]

1 hour ago, UWSkier said:

Only thing if you do go AC is remember to unplug it when you're not using it.  Our first lift control panel got fried when lightning struck the power pole up on the hillside which grounded through our lift.  GFI popped, but not in time to save the board.  That was a real pain to discover when the lake had that post-storm glassy water and the boat lift wouldn't respond to the remote 

Metal/water.. This is a common situation that often causes things to be damaged and lead to dangerous waters. The reality is nobody thinks to check water for voltage before jumping in each day. In the floating dock world u would be absolutely shocked what gets past inspectors. 

[Sixball]

I have never heard of a death or any issue wit 110 ether. I also would never run any power like the pictures posted. Done the way it should I have no concerns.

[The Hulk]

10 minutes ago, Sixball said:

I have never heard of a death or any issue wit 110 ether. I also would never run any power like the pictures posted. Done the way it should I have no concerns.

Google ESD drownings/deaths, its called the silent killer for a good reason. Pretty crazy how little it takes check out chart n below link

countless other websites and articles but this is a good quick one 

https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2013/july/electric-shock-drowning-explained.asp

GFIs often trip at 6-7mA which is higher than many children can bear in freshwater in some circumstances.

Again your dock may be wired correctly,  your neighbors may not, your kids swimming..neighbors hit a switch.

Also a silent dirty little topic is ESD deaths via correctly wired docks and wiring per NEC code.  headed for state legislation soon as nearly all docks in some areas have stray voltage even when done to code. Sadly nothing residence can do other than eliminate AC to be safe. Lots of $$$ and lawsuits/politics involved doubtful it will be public for a long while as it would set off a pool of shark lawyers for all previous incidents

ESD is still in infancy sadly  99% of public are unaware

[The Hulk]

8 hours ago, MNNewb said:

Long story short, we're buying a new lift.  One of the debates is how do we power it.  We have ac power running to the dock and the current motor.  Not sure if there will be enough juice when we upgrade.  Cost is relatively equal between AC and 24v DC w/solar charger.  

 

Specs:

Brands:  Max, Shoremaster are both winch and cable.  Shorestation is hydraulic and cable.  All come from reputable local dealers.

Size: 7000#

Electrical:  120v.  approximately 150-200 feet run from the house.  Guessing a 12ga wire, pretty sure not beefier than that

Concerns: our pellet grill would be on the same circuit.  Can we run the lift and keep cooking brisket at the same time?  Will the higher capacity motor needs have substantially higher power draw?  Will we have enough AC juice at the end of the line to run the new motor?

We're thinking ahead.  Don't need a #7k lift for the current boat but might for the next one.   Tired of problems and want to buy once, cry once.

  

As with boats get a good dealer that will take care of u and get u dialed in with your new setup. Option up! a nice lift makes boating a ton more enjoyable 

[minnmarker]

1 hour ago, The Hulk said:

Google ESD drownings/deaths, its called the silent killer for a good reason.

Sorry if you've lost someone close.  I've just never heard of it around here and other drownings have not been close to lifts. And there are a lot of 110V lifts.

[SouthsideBoarder]

Also recommend consider checking out Floe. We have the 8000 pound vertical screw drive and really like it a lot. Lots of great and well thought out features.

We use the 24 volt battery setup. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by SouthsideBoarder

[hethj7]

Why are the floating lifts not more popular in other areas of the country?  That is all you see here.  There are many brands but poly is very nice and the only power draw is basically an air blower or two   

https://www.polylift.com/

 

also, I would have something like this if I had a lake house   

http://www.docklifeguard.org/

[The Hulk]

23 minutes ago, SouthsideBoarder said:

Also recommend consider checking out Floe. We have the 8000 pound vertical screw drive and really like it a lot. Lots of great and well thought out features.

We use the 24 volt battery setup. 

Floe is top notch ! Awesome lifts, although if I recall they are either #1 or #2  most expensive but well worth.  I'm not a major fan "yet"  of the maxis tilting canopy , I have heard mixed reviews,  it's awesome concept,  although I'd fear operating one one of those windy white cap days, and the screens letting  bit of hard rain through on sides unless u can get without mesh now? 

[minnmarker]

10 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

Why are the floating lifts not more popular in other areas of the country?  That is all you see here. 

Because our water levels don't vary much and cable or cantilever lifts are so simple and reliable and handle waves well.

[The Hulk]

20 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

Why are the floating lifts not more popular in other areas of the country?  That is all you see here.  There are many brands but poly is very nice and the only power draw is basically an air blower or two   

https://www.polylift.com/

 

also, I would have something like this if I had a lake house   

http://www.docklifeguard.org/

General speaking floating is least liked, but only option on fluctuating lake levels. Expensive,  and easy to break/bend from rollers, thus why most of ppl complaining about our boats have the older 2" or less construction docks now most are 2.5" and up and much beefier. But a cheap boat house and lift single slip can start at $50k and many get nutzo for $100-200k+

You can get seasick on a big floating dock with lots of waves or it can be annoying at the least 

Up north lakes freeze it's in and out each year so nobody would want such a huge house structure,  down south is permanent fixed or floating boat house or piling structures so they can be a lot bigger and coat way more..

4 main types of boat lifts many people are unaware of the vast differences 

1. Free standing stationary boat lifts used up north mainly where in and out each year

2. Floating air displacement lifts , used middle belt of the country resivor lakes that fluctuate quite a bit, lots of TVA and USACE lakes

3. Permanent Boat house lifts, boats are suspended from overhead boat house structure used a lot in the south on lakes that don't fluctuate much and no removal necessary. 

4. Piling mount boat lifts mainly no roof structure,  what u see on the coastal docks and some areas of great lakes mainly 

Poly lifts and all similar air filled use a standard AC vacuum motor which pull 12-15 Amps for single motor system,  dual motors 24-30amps, and so on.. 

If u don't have electricity down to dock then DC/solar is typically way cheaper. Depending on lake average cost of new electric down to dock ranges $4-15k depending on lake , distance,  permits,  requirements etc.. this why a lot of new construction docks will go DC solar as it's only 1.5-2k. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by The Hulk

[minnmarker]

8 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

If u don't have electricity down to dock then DC/solar is typically way cheaper. Depending on lake average cost of new electric down to dock ranges $4-15k depending on lake , distance,  permits,  requirements etc.. this why a lot of new construction docks will go DC solar as it's only 1.5-2k. 

Unless you were an electrician during your ski bum days in which case you do it yourself!