The Wedge for Surfing

[vanamp]

 

 

1

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

The Wedge makes the most tunable wave out there. I want a bigger wave than my wife does, all I have to do is tweak the wedge with a couple of taps on the Sport Knob and we're set for the wave we each like. When you can reshape the wave and still have a ton of push with just a slight adjustment and also still run the boat level for ease of driving, why would you take that out of the equation?

While I get what you are saying I think inherently surf gate is the least tunable system out there.  That's not a bad thing, surf gate is the easiest system to get a good wave from but there is not a lot of tuning.

The reason I take the wedge out of the equation is that I have not found a configuration that gives me a better wave than just filling all my ballast and adding some lead in the bow.  We will add a bit of list if we are not doing transfers.  We also found we save about $20 an outing in gas without the wedge.  The stock setup of my boat had a lot more bow rise and we needed an aggressive wedge setting to get a wave we liked.  The boat was also working pretty hard.

[CharlieBeaU]

Over the last 2 seasons I ran a 2014 23 LSV with PW1 in 2017 and a 2017 23 LSV with PW2 in 2018.

With the 2014 and PW1 I ran the factory ballast Full, 750 PnP Rears Full, 1000 LB Bow bag 3/4 full and Wedge 1-2 clicks up from all the way down. This was my setup with our usual crew of 4 adults and 4 children 7 and under. Both goofy and regular side waves were good and I found with this setup the waves were longer keeping the rider farther back as opposed to taller with the rider closer to the boat.

So when I bought my 2017 I just figured the formula would be basically the same. I added the Wakemaker 770 PnP in the rear and a 675 Sumo bow bag. I ran those pretty much full along with factory ballast full. I ran the wedge 1-2 clicks out of lift mode. I found that the wave actually lacked a lot of the push that I had from the same setup in my 2014. After to talking to a few TMC members and to the guys at Active Water Sports here in Portland I reduced the amount of weight in the rear PnPs to about 2/3s full and with our usual 4 adult 4 kid crew I just ask 2 adults to ride in the front or 1 adult and all the kids. I only use the bow bag if it's a 3 adult crew. I am now able to use the wedge to really effectively tune the wave. I start at 2 clicks up from lift but will move it up or down pretty freely until the wave is perfect. This lets me dial in the wave taking into account changing conditions like going up river or down river. As a side note I do have the wristband/surfband and in my opinion it's pretty worthless so I have gone back to the tried and true old fashion way of just yelling really loudly to the driver. The buttons around the sport knob have made this adjustment for the driver much easier.

My experience has really been that there is a material difference between PW1 and PW2. I use much less weight in the boat now and get better wave results. However, if I still had my 2014 you can bet I'd still be running a lot heavier.

[MFknK]

7 hours ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

That is honestly shocking to me, I’ve surfed the T22 with stock ballast - including the bow bag and 550 plug n play bags and the wake is phenomenal. Two people in the boat. 

Malibu was first to the market with a surf system that truly worked and that you could keep the boat weighted level. Do we all tweak, yes. I run 2-300 extra is the bow. But nothing crazy. I can assure you that the wedge makes a significant difference when shaping the wave for different people on our boat, and has on every boat I’ve been on. I drive events for our dealer so I’ve spent a lot of time in almost every model.

The posts you see about the gates being submerged is direct result of people running way too much rear weight or way too much weight overall? Would tabs be better? Idk the only company I’ve seen really get it right is centurion and it’s way more complicated to setup. But it does produce a phenomenal wave. Although the boats are way bigger, more ballast and deep V hull so you are comparing Apple and oranges imo. 

Im not trying to discourage anyone from trying new things but just understand there is side effects from every change. If I upgrade my truck engine to produce way more power but keep the factory tires on, I’m not going to get a whole lot of traction.  

One part of trim tabs that I like would be the ability to “tune” the tabs to the setting that made sense. I wouldn’t want a tab that had 2 positions like some of the aftermarket offering. I want to be able to adjust the height/angle of each tab individually to see what works. 

The ability to run more weight means a bigger wave to me. At least to the point that the platform starts dragging.

The wedge does add height to the wave, but in all scenarios I have tried it makes the wave shorter and has less push... 

Our boat already has a very nice wave. But I am one to push the limits to see how good it can get. 

 

[ahopkins22LSV]

2 hours ago, MFknK said:

One part of trim tabs that I like would be the ability to “tune” the tabs to the setting that made sense. I wouldn’t want a tab that had 2 positions like some of the aftermarket offering. I want to be able to adjust the height/angle of each tab individually to see what works. 

The ability to run more weight means a bigger wave to me. At least to the point that the platform starts dragging.

The wedge does add height to the wave, but in all scenarios I have tried it makes the wave shorter and has less push... 

Our boat already has a very nice wave. But I am one to push the limits to see how good it can get. 

 

See I think you just answered your own question. I do see how running a ton of extra weight would make the wedge less effective. That’s why Malibu has recommended bag sizes at 450-550 for almost all boats and 750 for the bigger models. Wedge gives you those multiple positions that you are looking for in the trim tabs. 

These pictures are from we just got our vtx last summer. Zero extra bow weight and just my wife and I plus baby in the boat. 

Wedge 1 from lift

Wedge 2 from lift

Wedge 3 from lift

I never run wedge 1 or 2 for regular riders unless they are just learning and have to get used to even balancing on the bird let alone trying to find the pocket. Most of my friends prefer 3 or 4 in regular and goofy. 

[Chappy]

20 hours ago, vanamp said:

Are/were you running really light pnp?  Wedge or no wedge I have never had issues surfing but I have always been pretty loaded up.  Maybe wedge does not work as well when the boat is already pretty heavy?

On my 08 VLX, I ran MLS full then had a 750 in each locker full and wedge at about the 9 or 10 o'clock position.

On my 24 MXZ, I run MLS full and a 550 PNP in each locker full and the wedge at 1 or 2 clicks from max.

I am with @Ronnie the wedge is vital part of producing a quality surf wave with size and power.  No matter how much extra weight or crew I have I use the wedge every single time and it makes a huge/notable difference.  I do find that too much wedge or weight can make the lip crumble or break and creates some spray so I sometimes have to back off the wedge to clean the wave up but more wedge = bigger more powerful wave in every instance. This whole thread just makes no sense to me as I have never experienced these issues.

[Chappy]

Side note- Before upgrading last year I did a surf demo of every single boat (Axis, Centurion, Supra, MC and Nautique) in the size range that I wanted.  I knew a lot had changed since 2008 and I kept an open mind as I am not married to Malibu.  The biggest, longest and most powerful wave was on the Centurion (note-they use a wedge style system as well) and a close 2nd was the 24 MXZ.  I picked the 24 MXZ because of other options and styling.  I am also a huge fan of the Surf Gate and while adding some adjustability would be nice do not think the trim tab systems in general are better.  @MFknK If you don't like the wedge and surf gate why did you buy an Axis?

[MFknK]

I get all the above points. @Chappy In all the demos I did on newer boats, the Axis A24 through the best wakeboard wake for my longline style and the surf wave was really good. I also like the lack of touch screens etc. I already knew I wouldn’t run the wedge to wakeboard, but I assumed it would be used regularly for surfing. As it sits, I am not having to change weighting between wakeboarding and surfing at all. Which is a huge positive with different people wanting to surf and board. 

 

My goal in this thread was to get experiences and opinions on the wedge. Having some added  discussion about surfgate vs tabs is good info too. 

 

[kerpluxal]

10 hours ago, Ronnie said:

The Wedge makes the most tunable wave out there. I want a bigger wave than my wife does, all I have to do is tweak the wedge with a couple of taps on the Sport Knob and we're set for the wave we each like. When you can reshape the wave and still have a ton of push with just a slight adjustment and also still run the boat level for ease of driving, why would you take that out of the equation?

This is so true.. While I have a Malibu, I will ride behind any boat. Out of Nautique, Tige, Supra (the main ones I have ridden behind) the malibu is the most tunable. 

I use my index finger for communicating wedge position to driver, and with every click I can tell a difference.. I have never experienced a tall wave with no power... it has tons more power than a long wave.. All my beginners get a short tall wave so they don't have to worry about a pocket and push... A tall wave is shorter and you cannot ride as far back as a long wave.. but that is just common sense I hope.

I have not ridden a Centurion and OP stated he wakes board as well.. and I have not heard of a good wake behind a Centurion. I have ridden behind two Master Crafts with a great wave.. but they were not surf systems.. 

I keep going with Malibu because of the tunability of wake or wave on fly with wedge.

[vanamp]

13 hours ago, kerpluxal said:

This is so true.. While I have a Malibu, I will ride behind any boat. Out of Nautique, Tige, Supra (the main ones I have ridden behind) the malibu is the most tunable. 

I use my index finger for communicating wedge position to driver, and with every click I can tell a difference.. I have never experienced a tall wave with no power... it has tons more power than a long wave.. All my beginners get a short tall wave so they don't have to worry about a pocket and push... A tall wave is shorter and you cannot ride as far back as a long wave.. but that is just common sense I hope.

I have not ridden a Centurion and OP stated he wakes board as well.. and I have not heard of a good wake behind a Centurion. I have ridden behind two Master Crafts with a great wave.. but they were not surf systems.. 

I keep going with Malibu because of the tunability of wake or wave on fly with wedge.

I am sorry this is just false.  Easiest yes, but most tunable not even close.  I am not saying 100% customization is a good thing or even something I would want but to say surfgates that are ON or OFF and a Wedge that moves up and down at a pretty limited set of intervals is the most tunable surf/wake system is just wrong.

 

 

[Chappy]

48 minutes ago, vanamp said:

I am sorry this is just false.  Easiest yes, but most tunable not even close.  I am not saying 100% customization is a good thing or even something I would want but to say surfgates that are ON or OFF and a Wedge that moves up and down at a pretty limited set of intervals is the most tunable surf/wake system is just wrong.

 

 

Not to get in a fight over this but I respectfully disagree, besides Centurion what system has more tunability than Malibu?

[Cole2001]

I’m going to agree with @vanamp on this one. We started this thread off by the majority saying the wedge really doesn’t change the wave. 

Now we’re saying it’s the most adjustable wave out there. Would any boat with multiple settings ie supra, tige, centurion, Mastercraft not have more adjustment? And yes I’ve surfed all of those. 

[ahopkins22LSV]

1 minute ago, Cole2001 said:

I’m going to agree with @vanamp on this one. We started this thread off by the majority saying the wedge really doesn’t change the wave. 

Now we’re saying it’s the most adjustable wave out there. Would any boat with multiple settings ie supra, tige, centurion, Mastercraft not have more adjustment? And yes I’ve surfed all of those. 

Three people saying the wedge doesn’t help is the majority?

[vanamp]

19 minutes ago, Chappy said:

Not to get in a fight over this but I respectfully disagree, besides Centurion what system has more tunability than Malibu?

I have not been behind the wheel of all of the major brands but I believe most if not all have the ability to adjust their tabs individually.  Again I am not saying adjustability = superior, just that if the only thing we can control is the wedge (vertical force) it severely limits the customization.  We basically have 1 of 6 options per side. 

 

[vanamp]

The mixed results with the wedge have me curious if that something similar to prop slip can happen with different weight/speeds where it is adding drag but not doing what it is supposed to.  In a perfect world, where I have my boat weight so while surfing the swim platform is just barely above the water (typically how I have it) any wedge setting should bury the swim platform correct?  In practice, I have actually seen the opposite (platform rides higher above water).   

If this weather in MN ever turns I will be on the water soon enough and can experiment a bit.

[Chappy]

I just came to the realization that I got sucked into troll thread!

[Brad B]

1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

Three people saying the wedge doesn’t help is the majority?

Yes - when I'm 1 of the 3.

LOL

[Brad B]

But to be clear - I have an '03 with manual wedge. When we did use the wedge it made the wave tall and steep. Some really like that kinda wave. We like the rounder top and longer wave that WE get without any wedge. Makes it easier to do surface style stuff.

We've only had 18 seasons to tweak our wave so more study may need to be done.

[MFknK]

4 hours ago, vanamp said:

I am sorry this is just false.  Easiest yes, but most tunable not even close.  I am not saying 100% customization is a good thing or even something I would want but to say surfgates that are ON or OFF and a Wedge that moves up and down at a pretty limited set of intervals is the most tunable surf/wake system is just wrong.

 

 

This is sort of where I am at right now. You just made me think, what if I bypass the surf gate control, hooked up directly to the actuators so that I could tune them on the fly.

 

As far as the wedge goes, I did a lot of thinking last night about what I wanted to try. 

Since I have the 600# extra in the bow, I am going to expirement a bit more with more/less rear weight and or higher wedge settings.

1 hour ago, vanamp said:

The mixed results with the wedge have me curious if that something similar to prop slip can happen with different weight/speeds where it is adding drag but not doing what it is supposed to.  In a perfect world, where I have my boat weight so while surfing the swim platform is just barely above the water (typically how I have it) any wedge setting should bury the swim platform correct?  In practice, I have actually seen the opposite (platform rides higher above water).   

If this weather in MN ever turns I will be on the water soon enough and can experiment a bit.

Prop slip can make a difference. If you have more cup and reduce slip, the water should be less disturbed leaving the prop and conform to the displacement of the hull quicker, at least I would think.

I will have more information on this pretty soon. I had another post going about props. I am going from a 2755 to a 3077, which has a lot more cup. I did run the boat with the new prop, but had the inlaws with me, so getting real world data recorded wasn’t in the cards. 

Hopefully next week I can get out with some crew to see what it really does. 

[Raimie]

Ya, I didn't mean to say the wedge does nothing. To clarify my experience... I typically run my wedge at position 3 or 4 for surfing. When I stowed it midway through 2 different people's surf sets, they could not tell a difference and the wave looked the same from my perspective (driver). If I set the wedge more to the extremes like 1/2 or 5/6 it is very apparent that it is changing the shape/size/height/length of the wave.

[vanamp]

1 hour ago, Chappy said:

I just came to the realization that I got sucked into troll thread!

Aside from things going off topic this really is not a troll thread.  If you look at the on-topic stuff I think what's going on is a little more clear.  You said you can barely stay in the wave without the wedge.  Well If you need me to, I can post plenty of videos of my wife and I surfing just fine without the wedge.  So you must be terrible at surfing.....just kidding.  You must have dialed your wave in with the use of the wedge where non-wedge users probably dialed their wave in without the wedge and then adding the wedge after the fact seems to have mixed results.  Also, don't discount the fact that the exact same wedge is being used on multiple hulls.  There are going to be some hulls that respond better to it than others.  

I am open-minded enough to give some different configurations a try (I already did but I'll give it another go "for science").

[hawaiianstyln]

been wakeboarding competitively since 2001 and I can't stand NOT having the wedge.  the PW2 was just a major plus to my riding since now I can drop it all the way down and give it a bump or two up to tweak the wave.  I feel like the wedge provides the shape I need to help launch me into orbit.  As for surfing (which I'm not a huge fan of), it makes my VLX wave MUCH larger, but I don't add all the weight that everyone seems to add.