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geogilbert

Power for 2019 22 LSV ???

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geogilbert

So... I am bringing a conversation over here from Facebook...

I have a 2019 22 LSV lined up and am just trying to see if anyone has any 1st hand experience with them as far as the engines go. 
Long and short the boat will get weighted to absolute max the hull can handle for wakeboarding. I do not care about top end speed at all.
Is the PCM 409 enough? 

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ahopkinsVTX

Where are you located?

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geogilbert

Ohio, so pretty much sea level. 

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ahopkinsVTX

Well a few different factors but my vtx has no issues getting on plane with full ballast, 550 plug n plays and PWIII in lift. I’m also propped pretty mild as I ski at 34-36mph. We run the OJ 951 prop and we went with the 1:50:1 transmission. I’m very happy with the 409 in our boat.  I think you will be ok but that is hard to say to be honest as you say you are going to run above hard tank and plug n play ballast. Some guys here have demo’d the 23 and a22 with the 409 that might be able to weigh in better. 

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surfdude

Just order the 450 and be done!

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ID AX

We demoed a ‘19 22lsv w/ 409, 1.76 gear and were at 2700’.  I think we lose about 15% vs sea level and no way I would want to run a ton of weight to wakeboard.  You may be able to do it but I would bet you’re unsatisfied.  

Disclaimer: I have been spoiled by the 450 and would not ever go backwards.  So much so that if we had ordered a 22lsv, we would have waited for the M6.  

Edited by ID AX

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ahopkinsVTX

@agarabaghi has a new A22 with the 409 and runs heavy for wakeboarding. I think he will be able to provide the best feedback. 

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geogilbert

Isin't the PCM 409 the engine they have been running in G21 for ever?

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geogilbert

Okay, anyone have a feel on how the 410 from 2018 compares to the PCM 409 in this years boats. 

Looking into ot looks like the 2018 410s were not actually 410hp? I dont know the confusion continues on my front...

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ID AX
On 12/21/2018 at 2:31 PM, geogilbert said:

Long and short the boat will get weighted to absolute max the hull can handle for wakeboarding. I do not care about top end speed at all.
Is the PCM 409 enough? 

Based on this statement, no the 409 will not be enough if you weight the boat to the absolute max the hull can handle.  The hull can take thousands of extra lbs over stock.  Even with wedge3 I don’t believe the 409 could handle that.  

Are you planning on running sacs everywhere?  How many lbs over stock do you plan to run?  Have you demoed a 22lsv yet?  

Last but definitely not least, I would ignore most if not all of what you have read on FB.  The ignorance is strong there.  

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geogilbert

@ID AX So I am coming out of a 2015 - 22 VLX and generally, we run stock plus the 825 custom sacks in each locker and 1100 on the bow. That boat has the 350 in it and a 15x12.

If I have 4+ people in the boat I need to lay off the rears a bit. But, the reality is the hull could not take any more without water coming over both ends no matter how carefully you drove it. 

I was thinking I would be fine but am now questioning if the 409 is enough power.  Does anyone have a feel for how the PCM 409 compares to last years 410?

 

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SCMike
4 hours ago, geogilbert said:

@ID AX So I am coming out of a 2015 - 22 VLX and generally, we run stock plus the 825 custom sacks in each locker and 1100 on the bow. That boat has the 350 in it and a 15x12.

If I have 4+ people in the boat I need to lay off the rears a bit. But, the reality is the hull could not take any more without water coming over both ends no matter how carefully you drove it. 

I was thinking I would be fine but am now questioning if the 409 is enough power.  Does anyone have a feel for how the PCM 409 compares to last years 410?

 

How does your current boat handle that much weight?  I would imagine the 2019 it’s not much different then your current set up.  Pretty much the same size and power. 

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NWBU

Not sure how accurate my butt dyno is but I haven’t noticed any decrease in power between the 410 and the PCM 409s in the 2019s I’ve been in. I was happy with it in a 23 LSV with a crew of 6 for surfing. RPMs were a little lower than I was used to seeing with the 410. 

I would think if the 350 got the job done for a 2015, the PCM 409 would be a definite step up for a 2019 22 LSV in similar conditions, even with the deeper, heavier boat.

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ahopkinsVTX
9 hours ago, NWBU said:

Not sure how accurate my butt dyno is but I haven’t noticed any decrease in power between the 410 and the PCM 409s in the 2019s I’ve been in. I was happy with it in a 23 LSV with a crew of 6 for surfing. RPMs were a little lower than I was used to seeing with the 410. 

I would think if the 350 got the job done for a 2015, the PCM 409 would be a definite step up for a 2019 22 LSV in similar conditions, even with the deeper, heavier boat.

Agreed. The PCM 409 is a significant upgrade to the 350. I personally feel the power is a lot smoother with the 6.0 409 over the 6.2 410. I think he will be ok too, I’d be comparing the transmission ratios though too. 

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Infinitysurf

I am at 800ft elevation with a 2014 24ft boat and ZR409 engine with 1:1:48 power plus trans (dry weight is 4600). Almost 5k lbs of ballast plus 6 people and I have no issues with power at all. Running a 14x14.25 prop and at 10.8mph the rpm is between 3200-3400....empty the boat maxes at 5200rpm around 38mph.

So I also think the power will be fine with the elevation you are at, been an awesome motor for me, very happy with it..

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shawndoggy
17 hours ago, geogilbert said:

@ID AX So I am coming out of a 2015 - 22 VLX and generally, we run stock plus the 825 custom sacks in each locker and 1100 on the bow. That boat has the 350 in it and a 15x12.

If I have 4+ people in the boat I need to lay off the rears a bit. But, the reality is the hull could not take any more without water coming over both ends no matter how carefully you drove it. 

I was thinking I would be fine but am now questioning if the 409 is enough power.  Does anyone have a feel for how the PCM 409 compares to last years 410?

 

If your old boat would do it with a 350, I'm sure the new one will with the 409 too. I have the zr450 in my 16 t22 at 4000', where it's "good enough," but on the occasions that we are down at a low lake like shasta (800'), the engine is a monster.  The difference between the 450 and the 409 are negligible if CARB numbers are to be believed (I went with the 450 because in 2016 axis wouldn't offer the 409 with the 1.72 tranny).

That said we never wakeboard as heavy as you are proposing.

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ahopkinsVTX
29 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

If your old boat would do it with a 350, I'm sure the new one will with the 409 too. I have the zr450 in my 16 t22 at 4000', where it's "good enough," but on the occasions that we are down at a low lake like shasta (800'), the engine is a monster.  The difference between the 450 and the 409 are negligible if CARB numbers are to be believed (I went with the 450 because in 2016 axis wouldn't offer the 409 with the 1.72 tranny).

That said we never wakeboard as heavy as you are proposing.

He will have PWIII which will definitely help for getting on plane too. It's crazy how well lift works now. 

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LucasC
19 hours ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

He will have PWIII which will definitely help for getting on plane too. It's crazy how well lift works now. 

What is the actual difference between the PW11 and PW111 .  can  you notice much difference between the 2 of them  ?

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ahopkinsVTX
2 hours ago, LucasC said:

What is the actual difference between the PW11 and PW111 .  can  you notice much difference between the 2 of them  ?

Yes it’s a significant difference in lift. The foil is larger plus the changes it’s mounting and pivot point so you get a an increased angle when in lift mode. Really pops the boat up on plane. With the new mount and pivot angles the adjustments are more uniform throughout the whole range. I never really ran wedge 4 or 5 with PWII and now it is feasible with PWIII. 

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Nitrousbird

If ordering new, I would be going with one of the DI motors or the LSA.  

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LucasC

We have our boat ordering with the M6di Mainly chose this engine over supercharged for fuel economy as gas price in UK are crazy compared to USA , Curious if anyone can share there experience with running this engine yet ?

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BlackBluMalibu

We have the PCM version H-SIX 6.2l DI in our Centurion RI and love the performance. Gets better fuel economy than the Monsoon 350 in our 23LSV and provides substantial increase in overall performance.  The M235 is a very heavy boat, but if the M6DI provides same or very similar to the H6, you will be very happy with it.  Happy boating!!

Edited by BlackBluMalibu

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23LSVOwner
On 12/22/2018 at 10:55 PM, geogilbert said:

Okay, anyone have a feel on how the 410 from 2018 compares to the PCM 409 in this years boats. 

Looking into ot looks like the 2018 410s were not actually 410hp? I dont know the confusion continues on my front...

IIRC, that refers to the torque.

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LucasC
On 12/25/2018 at 5:28 PM, BlackBluMalibu said:

We have the PCM version H-SIX 6.2l DI in our Centurion RI and love the performance. Gets better fuel economy than the Monsoon 350 in our 23LSV and provides substantial increase in overall performance.  The M235 is a very heavy boat, but if the M6DI provides same or very similar to the H6, you will be very happy with it.  Happy boating!!

Thanks ,  PCM is quoting higher BHP and Torq  But both GM  6.2 Units ,  Guess its all in the Engine Management .

 

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