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harwalan

Boat surges when overheating

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harwalan

To preface, thanks for looking at this.  I have spent thousands over dollars at 2 different boat shops and neither boat shop (one is a Malibu dealer) has been able to correctly troubleshoot and identify a root cause for my issue.  It's time to break out the heavy hitters from the community.

 

The Boat

I have a 2000 Malibu LSV Escape with an Indmar V8 5.7L engine.  I purchased the boat this year and am new to boat ownership. The first several times out on the lake we did not experience any issues, so I don't suspect the previous owner had knowledge of the problem.

The Problem

The boat usually operates normally.  Sometimes, the boat will "surge," which is to say it cuts power for a split second, then resumes power.  Repeatedly.  The effect is a surging or lurching forward after each loss of power.  The boat can maintain forward momentum, at least enough to reach shore, in this crippled state, but the power loss is significant enough that it's impractical/difficult to pull a skier.

Symptoms
I've tried to isolate the cause of the surging and have a few incidents of the occurence that may help identify a solution:

  • The first time the surging occurred, the boat was while pulling a tube.  Previous to tubing, we had done short runs of wake-boarding, skiing, and kneeboarding.
  • The next occasion was after we had checked the fuel system and hoped that a new fuel filter fixed it.  We launched late afternoon and buzzed for a few minutes across the lake when the surging began.  
  • The next attempt at checking the fix was mid-day, not as hot and the water was colder.  We cruised at 25 mph across the lake for about 10 minutes when the surging began.  We let the engine cool for 20 minutes (I opened the engine compartment), and afterward, it ran fine for about 10 minutes at 25 mph when the problem resumed again.  Again I let it cool, but for less time.  Again the problem returned, but more quickly.  Also, I watched the engine temperature closely this day and noted that it never rose much above 160 F.
  • We took the boat on a multi-day vacation with family.  The first day, the boat ran without incident.  The 2nd day, late in the afternoon the boat had some issues with surging (again, after longer, sustained runs).  The 3rd day, it was mid-afternoon that the surging returned, again because we were tubing.  On the 3rd day, we were quite a distance from shore when the surging started.  I was too impatient to let it cool, so I kept the throttle low and was able to limp it to shore.  It surged the whole way, but at low throttle, the surging is less noticeable.  I dropped off my passengers on the beach, and given a few minutes to cool, the boat drove without issues to the ramp, a short distance away.

Attempts

  1. The first thought was something in the fuel system.  Boat repair shop #1 inspected the fuel system, test the fuel, replaced the fuel filter.
  2. Boat repair shop #1 identified the fuel pump as running load and screeching.  They suggested the fuel pump would need to be replaced soon and "could be" the cause of the problem.  Filter was replaced, no effect on surging.
  3. Boat repair shop #2 identified that the water pump was leaking and potentially spraying the engine with leaking water.  Because of the leakage, they thought the engine may be overheating due to inefficient cooling.  Pump was replaced, no effect on surging.
  4. Boat repair shop #2 took the boat for a lake test and confirmed the problem.  They also noticed that the rotors and wiring were original and should be replaced.  When asked, they were confident in this being the cause of the problem.  Rotor and wiring were replaced, tune-up was performed, no impact on surging.

Other thoughts and perhaps irrelevant data

  • This may be unrelated, but I am also having issues with the instrument panel.  Sometimes the speedometer works great.  Other times, it sticks at 0 or at lately, at a random speed.  Other instrumentation is unreliable also, for example, the fuel gauge is at E when not working, so I can tell when it is wonky.
  • A possible cause for the instrument panel issues is the Medallion computer.  Could a computer malfunction/overheating cause surging also?
  • Oil pressure seems to bounce around below 10 and 40 during the surging.  
  • The most apparent pattern I can see with the problem occurrence is temperature related.  While I don't know what is overheating, it appears that something is.
  • When the fuel pump was replaced, the regulator was not.
  • There are no signs of surging when idle.

Thanks again for reviewing the information and I would love to hear any suggestions or experience with this type of issue!

Edited by harwalan

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JeffK

Thanks for the nice write-up.  Very clear and thorough. 

I would start with the fuel issues and tune up.  You'd be amazed what a cap, rotor, plugs and wires can do for a boat.  Those items do not like moisture and over time, can get nasty.  You'll never regret a tune-up on an 18 yr old boat.  Even if it doesn't solve your problem, you'll likely notice some performance and efficiency gains.

I would also consider the fuel pump, as suggested above.  You could easily put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail to verify, but if it is screeching, it is only a matter of time.  If you are unsure how to test the fuel pressure, a quick search on here will help you out.  There should be a schrader valve on the fuel rail that will allow you to connect a fuel pressure gauge. 

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JasonK

One of the shops should have checked the fuel pressure and given you the test results. I would guess it's the coil. How many hours are on the engine?

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Eagle River Mike

How hot is the motor getting.  Your title says "when over heating" but you indicate engine never got over 160.  160 is normal and not over heating.

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justgary

Welcome to the crew!  I gave you a like for the well-written post asking a question.  If I could, I would hang it on the intro page to the forum as the model for others to use when they have questions.

Your problem could be caused by several things, but I'm confident that you can fix them yourself if you are willing to stand on your head inside the engine compartment and can do so for a minute or so without spilling your beer.  By the way, your dashboard issues are separate and are not causing the engine problem.

You mentioned a fuel pump change.  The only way to properly test this is with a pressure gauge from any auto parts store (or maybe even wally world).  You might be able to rent one or borrow one, but they are relatively cheap if you want to own it.  I know that the 2004 Monsoon had the lip of the plenum cover in the way of the schrader valve (so we cut a notch in the cover), but my 1999 is very accessible on the fuel rail.  You should see 3 atmospheres of pressure (14.7 * 3 = 44.1 PSI or so) at all times, relative to the manifold pressure.  That means around 44 PSI at idle when you have a lot of vacuum, and almost 60 PSI at wide open throttle when you have no vacuum at all.

You mentioned overheating.  I like to use a cheap IR thermometer from that chinese tool store to test engine temperature.  Like Mike mentioned above, you should be able to spot test your engine and find 160*F anywhere on it except for the bottoms of the exhaust manifolds.  Even the risers should be at 160.  If not, tell us where you see higher temperatures and maybe we can help.

You didn't mention that one of the shops checked for junk in the transmission cooler.  It is quite possible that you have a blockage, so set the beer down for a minute and remove the big water hose between the raw water pump and the short metal cylinder that has two hoses attached to it.  That is your transmission cooler, and it also acts as a screen to catch chunks of stuff that would otherwise get into your engine.  Look in the inlet side of the cooler and remove any debris you see, then put the hose back on.

I'm assuming the shop replaced the impeller while they were fixing the spray problem, but if not, do that now also.  Search this site for one of roughly 50 million different posts about how to do so.

It is possible that oil pressure is the problem.  You should expect to see wild swings in pressure, but the oil pressure switch could be corroded and acting up.  It's under the manifold on the side of the block.  Check and clean the connection.  If it is corroded, get it clean.  While you are in there, spray the whole engine block and transmission with light oil such as WD-40 or Power B'laster or something like that.  Get it everywhere.

Finally, find the Cannon plug near the ECM (it should be a round, red rubber plug about two inches in diameter), loosen the clamp, and pull the plug.  Inspect it for crud, clean it, take a small blade and *gently* spread the male pins, spray it with a little lube, and reinstall it.  The clamp doesn't have to be too tight, but it should hold the plug together.

Like several other guys mentioned, change the distributor cap and rotor, and maybe the wires and plugs.

Since the problem happens when tubing, quit tubing and learn to barefoot.  OK, maybe that's a little too much to ask.  But it could be that all of the wake crossings you do is causing something to momentarily disconnect.  Reach behind the dash and use a short wire to tie both connectors of the safety lanyard together (short them together).  Maybe the bumping is causing the lanyard switch to open momentarily.  You could also try running hard on smooth water to see if bumping causes the issue.

This should keep you busy for a while.  For about $50 in test equipment, you can solve this yourself.  Come back and give us progress updates.

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Eagleboy99

Except the part about WD-40.  Use a proper engine anti-corrosion spray like Boeshield, CRC etc.  WD-40 is basically Stoddard Solvent (naphtha)

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Bozboat
22 minutes ago, justgary said:

Welcome to the crew!  I gave you a like for the well-written post asking a question.  If I could, I would hang it on the intro page to the forum as the model for others to use when they have questions.

Your problem could be caused by several things, but I'm confident that you can fix them yourself if you are willing to stand on your head inside the engine compartment and can do so for a minute or so without spilling your beer.  By the way, your dashboard issues are separate and are not causing the engine problem.

You mentioned a fuel pump change.  The only way to properly test this is with a pressure gauge from any auto parts store (or maybe even wally world).  You might be able to rent one or borrow one, but they are relatively cheap if you want to own it.  I know that the 2004 Monsoon had the lip of the plenum cover in the way of the schrader valve (so we cut a notch in the cover), but my 1999 is very accessible on the fuel rail.  You should see 3 atmospheres of pressure (14.7 * 3 = 44.1 PSI or so) at all times, relative to the manifold pressure.  That means around 44 PSI at idle when you have a lot of vacuum, and almost 60 PSI at wide open throttle when you have no vacuum at all.

You mentioned overheating.  I like to use a cheap IR thermometer from that chinese tool store to test engine temperature.  Like Mike mentioned above, you should be able to spot test your engine and find 160*F anywhere on it except for the bottoms of the exhaust manifolds.  Even the risers should be at 160.  If not, tell us where you see higher temperatures and maybe we can help.

You didn't mention that one of the shops checked for junk in the transmission cooler.  It is quite possible that you have a blockage, so set the beer down for a minute and remove the big water hose between the raw water pump and the short metal cylinder that has two hoses attached to it.  That is your transmission cooler, and it also acts as a screen to catch chunks of stuff that would otherwise get into your engine.  Look in the inlet side of the cooler and remove any debris you see, then put the hose back on.

I'm assuming the shop replaced the impeller while they were fixing the spray problem, but if not, do that now also.  Search this site for one of roughly 50 million different posts about how to do so.

It is possible that oil pressure is the problem.  You should expect to see wild swings in pressure, but the oil pressure switch could be corroded and acting up.  It's under the manifold on the side of the block.  Check and clean the connection.  If it is corroded, get it clean.  While you are in there, spray the whole engine block and transmission with light oil such as WD-40 or Power B'laster or something like that.  Get it everywhere.

Finally, find the Cannon plug near the ECM (it should be a round, red rubber plug about two inches in diameter), loosen the clamp, and pull the plug.  Inspect it for crud, clean it, take a small blade and *gently* spread the male pins, spray it with a little lube, and reinstall it.  The clamp doesn't have to be too tight, but it should hold the plug together.

Like several other guys mentioned, change the distributor cap and rotor, and maybe the wires and plugs.

Since the problem happens when tubing, quit tubing and learn to barefoot.  OK, maybe that's a little too much to ask.  But it could be that all of the wake crossings you do is causing something to momentarily disconnect.  Reach behind the dash and use a short wire to tie both connectors of the safety lanyard together (short them together).  Maybe the bumping is causing the lanyard switch to open momentarily.  You could also try running hard on smooth water to see if bumping causes the issue.

This should keep you busy for a while.  For about $50 in test equipment, you can solve this yourself.  Come back and give us progress updates.

The "Momentary disconnect", perhaps the old style kill switch (red three prong clip holding button in) is failing?  Mine started to fail this summer,  replacing this fall with the newer hold out style.

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Falko

IT sounds like a fuel delivery issue to me. Low pressure and when the engine compartment gets warm you start to get a little vapor lock.

Any chance the MAF sensor could be going a little wacky?

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minnmarker
1 hour ago, JasonK said:

One of the shops should have checked the fuel pressure and given you the test results. I would guess it's the coil. How many hours are on the engine?

This ^^^^.  Coils get cranky when they're hot.

Welcome to the crew.

Plus it's time for a tuneup anyway.  Rotor, wires, plugs.  If the shops did not test the fuel pressure then get a gauge.  It's cheaper that taking the boat back to the shop.

If the above doesn't solve it then post again!

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justgary
7 hours ago, Falko said:

IT sounds like a fuel delivery issue to me. Low pressure and when the engine compartment gets warm you start to get a little vapor lock.

Any chance the MAF sensor could be going a little wacky?

I'm pretty sure that engine is open loop only and has no MAF sensor. 

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Nitrousbird

IMO, do zero troubleshooting until ALL maintenance items have been addressed:

- Cap
- Rotor
- Plugs
- Wires
- Fuel Filters - plural being key here, as you likely have 2; were both replaced?
- Tranny Fluid
- Vdrive Fluid
- Oil (if due)
- Impeller

Obviously a couple of the above won't cause the issue, but it is much easier to narrow down an issue once maintenance is up-to-date, which it needs to be regardless, so you aren't wasting money.  

Now if the 2nd show found the water pump leaking, replace it.  Who cares if this is/is not the cause...it needs fixed.  Was the fuel pump actually replaced?  If so and not the regulator, run a fuel pressure gauge under load to ensure you aren't dropping pressure at the rail.

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harwalan
13 hours ago, JeffK said:

Thanks for the nice write-up.  Very clear and thorough. 

I would start with the fuel issues and tune up.  You'd be amazed what a cap, rotor, plugs and wires can do for a boat.  Those items do not like moisture and over time, can get nasty.  You'll never regret a tune-up on an 18 yr old boat.  Even if it doesn't solve your problem, you'll likely notice some performance and efficiency gains.

I would also consider the fuel pump, as suggested above.  You could easily put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail to verify, but if it is screeching, it is only a matter of time.  If you are unsure how to test the fuel pressure, a quick search on here will help you out.  There should be a schrader valve on the fuel rail that will allow you to connect a fuel pressure gauge. 

Thanks for the suggestions, I don't think it was clear in my original write-up, but I already replaced the fuel pump, rotors, wiring, and water pump.  A tune-up was performed with the rotor/wiring replacement.  I updated the post to make that more clear.

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harwalan
13 hours ago, JasonK said:

One of the shops should have checked the fuel pressure and given you the test results. I would guess it's the coil. How many hours are on the engine?

Engine hours are about 600.

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harwalan
13 hours ago, Eagle River Mike said:

How hot is the motor getting.  Your title says "when over heating" but you indicate engine never got over 160.  160 is normal and not over heating.

The motor doesn't get warmer than about 165.  I say "over heating" because normal function stops after continued use.  After a pause in use, normal function returns.  The longer the pause, the more time we have of normal use before the problem returns.  I'm making an assumption that heat is involved, but it really seems that way.

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harwalan
12 hours ago, justgary said:

Welcome to the crew!  I gave you a like for the well-written post asking a question.  If I could, I would hang it on the intro page to the forum as the model for others to use when they have questions.

Your problem could be caused by several things, but I'm confident that you can fix them yourself if you are willing to stand on your head inside the engine compartment and can do so for a minute or so without spilling your beer.  By the way, your dashboard issues are separate and are not causing the engine problem.

You mentioned a fuel pump change.  The only way to properly test this is with a pressure gauge from any auto parts store (or maybe even wally world).  You might be able to rent one or borrow one, but they are relatively cheap if you want to own it.  I know that the 2004 Monsoon had the lip of the plenum cover in the way of the schrader valve (so we cut a notch in the cover), but my 1999 is very accessible on the fuel rail.  You should see 3 atmospheres of pressure (14.7 * 3 = 44.1 PSI or so) at all times, relative to the manifold pressure.  That means around 44 PSI at idle when you have a lot of vacuum, and almost 60 PSI at wide open throttle when you have no vacuum at all.

You mentioned overheating.  I like to use a cheap IR thermometer from that chinese tool store to test engine temperature.  Like Mike mentioned above, you should be able to spot test your engine and find 160*F anywhere on it except for the bottoms of the exhaust manifolds.  Even the risers should be at 160.  If not, tell us where you see higher temperatures and maybe we can help.

You didn't mention that one of the shops checked for junk in the transmission cooler.  It is quite possible that you have a blockage, so set the beer down for a minute and remove the big water hose between the raw water pump and the short metal cylinder that has two hoses attached to it.  That is your transmission cooler, and it also acts as a screen to catch chunks of stuff that would otherwise get into your engine.  Look in the inlet side of the cooler and remove any debris you see, then put the hose back on.

I'm assuming the shop replaced the impeller while they were fixing the spray problem, but if not, do that now also.  Search this site for one of roughly 50 million different posts about how to do so.

It is possible that oil pressure is the problem.  You should expect to see wild swings in pressure, but the oil pressure switch could be corroded and acting up.  It's under the manifold on the side of the block.  Check and clean the connection.  If it is corroded, get it clean.  While you are in there, spray the whole engine block and transmission with light oil such as WD-40 or Power B'laster or something like that.  Get it everywhere.

Finally, find the Cannon plug near the ECM (it should be a round, red rubber plug about two inches in diameter), loosen the clamp, and pull the plug.  Inspect it for crud, clean it, take a small blade and *gently* spread the male pins, spray it with a little lube, and reinstall it.  The clamp doesn't have to be too tight, but it should hold the plug together.

Like several other guys mentioned, change the distributor cap and rotor, and maybe the wires and plugs.

Since the problem happens when tubing, quit tubing and learn to barefoot.  OK, maybe that's a little too much to ask.  But it could be that all of the wake crossings you do is causing something to momentarily disconnect.  Reach behind the dash and use a short wire to tie both connectors of the safety lanyard together (short them together).  Maybe the bumping is causing the lanyard switch to open momentarily.  You could also try running hard on smooth water to see if bumping causes the issue.

This should keep you busy for a while.  For about $50 in test equipment, you can solve this yourself.  Come back and give us progress updates.

Thanks for all the tips!  This should keep me busy for a while!

A couple of notes:

  • It wasn't clear before, but all of the "Attempts" listed above are things I have had done.  (yes, I have shelled out of $3k this summer to attempt to fix something that still isn't fixed!)  I'm going to have a "new" boat soon with all the things I've replaced!
  • I should also note that "tubing" by my definition is pretty tame.  My youngest kids like to drag at 10 mph in a straight line.  (I will occasionally turn a bit just to give them them some "excitement.")
  • Yes the impeller is new.

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harwalan
4 hours ago, Nitrousbird said:

IMO, do zero troubleshooting until ALL maintenance items have been addressed:

- Cap
- Rotor
- Plugs
- Wires
- Fuel Filters - plural being key here, as you likely have 2; were both replaced?
- Tranny Fluid
- Vdrive Fluid
- Oil (if due)
- Impeller

Obviously a couple of the above won't cause the issue, but it is much easier to narrow down an issue once maintenance is up-to-date, which it needs to be regardless, so you aren't wasting money.  

Now if the 2nd show found the water pump leaking, replace it.  Who cares if this is/is not the cause...it needs fixed.  Was the fuel pump actually replaced?  If so and not the regulator, run a fuel pressure gauge under load to ensure you aren't dropping pressure at the rail.

I think the only 2 in the list I haven't addressed are the cap and the Vdrive fluid.  I will look into those.  Thanks!

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Bozboat

Replace the Ignition control module 

When it starts to fail, it will get hot and cause a stumble 

after it sits for awhile it will cool off and work 

Then it will fail, once it fails it will not work at all.

while your at it replace the coil as mentioned above 

Edited by Bozboat

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harwalan
16 minutes ago, Bozboat said:

Replace the Ignition control module 

When it starts to fail get hot and stumble 

sit for awhile it will cool off and work 

Then it will fail

If I understand this, it would apply only to starting the engine, correct?  Or does the ignition control module have an effect on an already running engine?

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justgary
33 minutes ago, harwalan said:

If I understand this, it would apply only to starting the engine, correct?  Or does the ignition control module have an effect on an already running engine?

Boz could be on to something.  He's talking about the module under the distributor cap.  It's not just for starting the engine.  Relatively cheap at the auto parts store.  Most people ask for parts for a 1999 Chevy Truck with a 5.7l.

For the distributor cap, get one with brass contacts, not aluminum.  Also, I have found that I sometimes have to remove a small tab at the bottom of the cap to get it to fit. 

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csleaver

I don't know if this will help, but I had a very similar problem with a 2000 Supra.  Even though the temperature gauge at the helm did not go above 160 degrees F, the diacom readout showed that the ECT (engine coolant temperature) sensor was actually reading above 200 degrees F and the ECM would cause the motor to derate and lose power.  The problem turned out to be a lot of grass stuck in the trans cooler and restricting water flow above 3000 RPM.

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Ryan1776
On 9/25/2018 at 12:26 AM, harwalan said:

This may be unrelated, but I am also having issues with the instrument panel.  Sometimes the speedometer works great.  Other times, it sticks at 0 or at lately, at a random speed.  Other instrumentation is unreliable also, for example, the fuel gauge is at E when not working, so I can tell when it is wonky.

I'll throw my .02 at this. 
Lots of very good suggestions up there. Wouldn't hesitate at any of them. 

My question pertains to this comment however, I think this is a telltale sign, does the surging and instrument malfunction happen at the same time? 
Does the instrument malfunction ever happen without surging?
Does the surging every happen without instrument malfunction? 

Redundant questions to be sure, but in all my years working on old cars, new cars, old boats (rebuilt an 86 supra comp) when things happen at the same time, they have to looked at together.
I'm not saying one CAUSES the other, I'm saying they have the same source of the malfunction. 
To me this this screams electrical issue.  And is why both shops haven't caught it, they're tough and elusive. 
My buddies dad works at Chrysler in the electrical development lab. Meaning, they have a complete bucks of cars (wood models, no actual chassis) with every single wire the car is to have and he diagnoses and fixes issues. (He's also a master mechanic and races NMCA Super Stock) I don't know how many times I've come to him with goofy issues like this and he always asks me..."did you check all your grounds?"

With DC circuits, all cars and boats, grounds are notorious to cause issues. Even ones that look good. As @justgary mentioned, all this can be checked if you're willing to get upside down, and take a systematic look at it. 
Mind you I'm not saying this IS the issue, but it's a free check. 

Ryan 

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Bozboat
11 hours ago, harwalan said:

If I understand this, it would apply only to starting the engine, correct?  Or does the ignition control module have an effect on an already running engine?et 

The ICM has something to do with providing spark.  It is located under the rotor on the distributor.  When it starts to fail it will get hot.  Then it will not work until it cools down.  Once it fails you will not get any spark at the plugs.

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harwalan

This post seems overdue, but we have finally decided that the issue is resolved.  Last fall, before putting the boat away for the winter, we had the alternator replaced.  After having the boat out 3 times this summer, the issue has NOT resurfaced.  The problem is solved!

I never would have guessed that a faulty alternator was causing this issue.  Hopefully someone will find this and be able to spend less time guessing!

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DUKENO1

Glad you got it fixed.  I had a similar issue when my boat was new...would surge and miss...surge and miss and sometimes cut off.  Would usually crank right back up and might run fine for a bit but then return at intermittent times.  I finally figured out that the kill switch on mine was faulty.  The lanyard that plugs into it was not pulling the plunger down far enough and when we would hit other wakes at randome times or just bumpy water it would cut out.  I fixed it by wedging a dime between the plunger and the lanyard piece and it never did it again.  I heard later that there were some faulty switches and that some folks had them replaced or just bypassed it altogether.  I never had an issue again so never bothered.  Literally the best 10 cents I have spent on this boat and I guess I really didn't spend it lol.  That dime has been in there for 13 years now !   I was gonna mention it to you just in case your isse returns and you haven't checked the kill switch.  Didn't realize the post was an older one.

 

Have a good one!

 

 

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