'17 Senate Alloy setup

[ID AX]

So I "borrowed" a Radar 67" Senate Alloy w/ a prime front boot and rtp.  I'm pretty sure the prime isn't the best boot but it's what I could borrow  Unfortunately, the slalom guy wasn't at the dealers and we tried to set it up based on Radars website.  They say to install front boot 30.5" When I place the front boot I can get 30.25 or 30.75 I am assuming 30.75 would be better for me as a slower long liner?   Then move back to 30.25 as speed increases and line decreases?  

I'm also assuming this is a dumb question 

[UWSkier]

The Senate and Vapor both like boots forward.  Way forward.  Though .5" is a big jump from one hole to another.  You sure you don't have more granularity than that?  Usually the holes for fore-aft adjustment if on a plate are 1/4" graduations.  On a sequence plate, it's 1/8".

I'd go with 30.75.  Are you sure the fin is set up properly?  If moving the boots forward .25", I'd bump the fin forward .020 and take .010 out of the tip.  Did something similar on my Vapor this year and it rips.  I have my boots as far forward as possible.

[ID AX]

I went back and looked and it looks like it moves 3/8" max.  I'm using my 25' tape and I'm quite certain that it's not the right tool for the job   

I am going to leave the boot forward to 30.75".   The fin is stock from Radar as I grabbed a blank.  Not sure I am competent enough to move it?  I was told by a guy at the club to take the wing off until I speed up and get comfortable skiing fast.  I'm shooting for 30 this weekend but the wife gets nervous driving our barge that fast.  

Thank you for the help and info

[ahopkins22LSV]

Can you take a few picture of how you are measuring? I agree with @UWSkier that you should be able to get more adjustment out of it than that. 

Personally, I would t touch the fin before skiing it for a bit. But that is just my preference. Verify the fin is at stock and go get some water time on it before making fun adjustments. 

[ID AX]

So by my tape it's exactly 30.5" from back of the actual boot heel to tail.  If I go from the metal plate it's 30.625".  Which is preferred or right method?  Should I move forward even more?  

Edited August 30, 2017 by ID AX

[sunvalleylaw]

46 minutes ago, ID AX said:

I went back and looked and it looks like it moves 3/8" max.  I'm using my 25' tape and I'm quite certain that it's not the right tool for the job   

I am going to leave the boot forward to 30.75".   The fin is stock from Radar as I grabbed a blank.  Not sure I am competent enough to move it?  I was told by a guy at the club to take the wing off until I speed up and get comfortable skiing fast.  I'm shooting for 30 this weekend but the wife gets nervous driving our barge that fast.  

Thank you for the help and info

I learned to do it (set up the bindings and fin/wing) myself this year.  I got digital calipers from Amazon, and a set of fin gauges from D3.  Then I watched Paul Crawford's video for setting up a D3 on what to do.  Mine came out great and was verified on the first day out by a more experienced guy who knows how to set up skis.  I would bet the process would be similar or the same.  And you should learn how to do it yourself. My ski came with the wing off.  As far as measurements for that ski, you will need to find them from someone who knows, as I don't.  But stock would seem a good place to start.  I think it is a good idea to verify the numbers before you go.  And I agree with @ahopkinsTXi , stock is a good place to start.  Here is Paul's video, which I think is helpful.   Different brand, but maybe the info will be helpful.  Though not sure how the fins work on that ski.

 

These are the calipers I ordered.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N15S3H2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

EDIT:  PS, stock has continued to be good for me on this ski.  I would avoid too much chasing of magic numbers.  Get a good stock setup, and work on your skiing, rather than fiddle around to too many things.  At least, that is what I think works best for me.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by sunvalleylaw

[ahopkins22LSV]

Always measure to the actual heel of the boot. Not the plate. 

Is that a rear boot? Strange to see a front boot with only 4 mount holes. 

[Chaabo]

Yup, strange boot. Actually the first one I've ever seen with only 4 mounting holes. But it's definitely a front boot. 

But anyway - It's a Radar brand boot on a Radar brand ski, so middle hole gets you right at factory setup. No need to put it farther forward at lower speeds. (Strange, that someone told you that, never heard of that theory.)

Leave the front boot in middle hole and play around with the rear boot (if you want to experiment a little). Boot spacing will make quite a difference in how the ski behaves and has a good effect on ski control (especially around the turn).

 

[oldjeep]

16 minutes ago, Chaabo said:

Yup, strange boot. Actually the first one I've ever seen with only 4 mounting holes. But it's definitely a front boot. 

But anyway - It's a Radar brand boot on a Radar brand ski, so middle hole gets you right at factory setup. No need to put it farther forward at lower speeds. (Strange, that someone told you that, never heard of that theory.)

Leave the front boot in middle hole and play around with the rear boot (if you want to experiment a little). Boot spacing will make quite a difference in how the ski behaves and has a good effect on ski control (especially around the turn).

 

Definitely looks like a rear boot on a feather frame - or a front boot that someone put on a rear boot base.  One of my skis came with dual prime bindings that I got rid of, but the front boot used the standard 6 hole plate and the rear used a 4 hole.

Edited August 30, 2017 by oldjeep

[Chaabo]

Don't want to be a wise a**, but the hole spacing (side to side) is wider on a front boot than it is on a rear boot. So it's not possible to mount a rear boot to the front of the ski.

 

*edit*

Mystery solved...

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Chaabo

[ID AX]

Thanks for all the replies.  I am going to set it to Radars settings and start there.  I'm going to have limited time until I have to unborrow or buy the ski.  If I buy the ski I will switch to a different front boot.  

@Chaabo I read about moving the boot forward in an article on waterski.com.  https://www.waterskis.com/Adjusting-your-Slalom-Waterski-s/14.htm

[oldjeep]

1 hour ago, Chaabo said:

Don't want to be a wise a**, but the hole spacing (side to side) is wider on a front boot than it is on a rear boot. So it's not possible to mount a rear boot to the front of the ski.

 

*edit*

Mystery solved...

 

Weird, I guess the kids sized boots don't have room or maybe a need for the front set of holes. The adult sizes I've seen all have 3 sets of holes

Edited August 30, 2017 by oldjeep

[ID AX]

3 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

Weird, I guess the kids sized boots don't have room or maybe a need for the front set of holes. The adult sizes all have 3 sets of holes

Are you saying I have kids feet? 

Edited August 30, 2017 by ID AX

[oldjeep]

Just now, ID AX said:

The boot I have is an adult small I believe. It's for a size 8 foot

Sorry, all the adults around here except my wife passed up a 5-8 in middle school   I forget that not every one is from the Midwest and squatch sized

[sunvalleylaw]

1 hour ago, Chaabo said:

Leave the front boot in middle hole and play around with the rear boot (if you want to experiment a little). Boot spacing will make quite a difference in how the ski behaves and has a good effect on ski control (especially around the turn).

 

On my new ski, I got the front set stock, and then put the rear as close as I could get it, per my coach's recommendations after watching me on some film.  It was a bit closer than my set up on my old ski.  Ended up being a big improvement for me.  I think it reduces the tendency to push on the tail for me.  

[ID AX]

7 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

Sorry, all the adults around here except my wife passed up a 5-8 in middle school   I forget that not every one is from the Midwest and squatch sized

I used to be short and fat.  Now I'm just short. 

[sunvalleylaw]

Cool!  I have medium/small feet too.  I wear an 8.5 in alpine ski boots, a 9 for regular shoes.  Have always been a medium in rubber waterski boots, whether it be Wiley's or D3, which is all that I have been in.  Tried an HO Animal once, but didn't like them better than what I as on at the time.  (D3 Leverage).  

Also, I just want to say I think it is so cool that we have a few active slalom oriented threads going on here right now!

[ID AX]

4 minutes ago, sunvalleylaw said:

On my new ski, I got the front set stock, and then put the rear as close as I could get it, per my coach's recommendations after watching me on some film.  It was a bit closer than my set up on my old ski.  Ended up being a big improvement for me.  I think it reduces the tendency to push on the tail for me.  

I'm going to start with the RTP all the way forward.  That's how I'm setup on my old HO

[ID AX]

If I like the ski I can get it for a great deal but will have to decide on front boot.  I'm leaning towards a Vector until I can get more time on the water.  Any other recommendations.  My shop carries Radar and HO but can get most anything.  

[sunvalleylaw]

PS, @ID AX , we HAVE to find a way to meet each other and ski, hopefully before this year is done.  Also, with our friend at Gilbert Lake over on BOS.  I am hoping to make it over to at least watch part of the grassroots comp over at Gilbert this weekend.  I wanted to enter and just do it, even if I am not always making my gates yet, just to do one and meet some folks.  But my wife is headed out of town, and I may have some responsibilities with my daughter that prevent my participating. 

[sunvalleylaw]

Back to the fin stuff.  I considered getting the Fin Whispering book also, and still might, just to learn, and to have something waterski related to read over winter.  But right now, I wanted to focus on form, learning course and gate timing, and skiing from a stock-ish platform that worked for me.  Fortunately, stock worked fine.  I may still get the book to understand all the theories.  But not sure it will make a huge difference for me, since stock is working, until I start getting into 32 off and up.  I understand things start changing more up in that rarified air.  

EDIT:  @ID AX , and after what @UWSkier says below, I guess that makes your fin set up easy too, and you can ignore that fin stuff I posted earlier for now.  Set it and forget it.  Cool!

Edited August 30, 2017 by sunvalleylaw

[UWSkier]

Forget what I said about the fin adjustments.  That's not an adjustable fin on the Alloy.  You have three DFT setting options with that setup and they're HUGE jumps.  Put both fin and bindings in middle holes and go ski.

[sunvalleylaw]

4 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

Forget what I said about the fin adjustments.  That's not an adjustable fin on the Alloy.  You have three DFT setting options with that setup and they're HUGE jumps.  Put both fin and bindings in middle holes and go ski.

That is good to know.  Also, if you can get a little coaching this year, for you, your son and whoever else is interested (I am jealous a little bit you have access to clubs and coaching there in the Boise area) I would take that opportunity.  Just to start this quest and also finish this year with some good advice and clear direction to pick up on next year.  The coaching I got recently was SO worth it, and really not all that expensive, considering the overall cost of skiing.  A lot less expensive than a private lesson at SV in wintertime, I can tell you that!

Edited August 30, 2017 by sunvalleylaw

[oldjeep]

3 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

Forget what I said about the fin adjustments.  That's not an adjustable fin on the Alloy.  You have three DFT setting options with that setup and they're HUGE jumps.  Put both fin and bindings in middle holes and go ski.

Hadn't noticed that.  Kinda weird that they went to that style fin on the newer Senates.  Mine is just a standard Senate (Not C) and it has the typical adjustable fin block.

[ID AX]

12 minutes ago, sunvalleylaw said:

PS, @ID AX , we HAVE to find a way to meet each other and ski, hopefully before this year is done.  Also, with our friend at Gilbert Lake over on BOS.  I am hoping to make it over to at least watch part of the grassroots comp over at Gilbert this weekend.  I wanted to enter and just do it, even if I am not always making my gates yet, just to do one and meet some folks.  But my wife is headed out of town, and I may have some responsibilities with my daughter that prevent my participating. 

Would love to get together.  I need to get my wife up to your neck of the woods.  She's never been in the sawtooths   I did make the mistake of showing her The listing for Black Butte Ranch.  What a cool looking setup.  A little too far to commute though 

we are headed to McCall for the weekend.  I heard rumor of a clinic this weekend as well.  

Edited August 30, 2017 by ID AX