Best pre-surf gate LSV setups?

[Fffrank]

Wondering if everyone could chip in with their best pre-surf gate setups.  I'm struggling to find the right equation for my 2004 23LSV.  I recently purchased a nauticurl suck-gate and could NOT get a good wave with it.   With all of my ballast full (2x1100s + full MLS + wedge) and suck-gate I could not get past 8.5MPH.  I might need to reprop.

My best regular setup:

Port 1100 full
Bow MLS and belly MLS full
Starboard 1100 @ 50%
Wedge down

 

I have played around with goofy setups and have not found anything that even looks surfable.  It all turns to whitewater right away and never cleans up.  I've got friends that told me this boat had a better goofy setup than regular but I'm not seeing anything even close to that.  Thoughts?

[blk93jeepzj]

I have an 04 as well.  You need more bow weight.

I use a homemade suck gate.

900 rear port 3/4 to full. 900 rear starboard 3/4 to full. (depending on extra gear back there, vests, fenders, ect)

Center MLS full.

Bow MLS full.  Additional 300 sack in bow. 35lb lead brick. Usually a person or 2 in the bow as well.  (plan on getting some more lead to tuck in here and there.)

Wedge down.  

12-13 mph.  

Most people can surf this ropeless all day.  

 

[TimbrSS]

If you couldn't get up to speed, sounds like you need bow weight. If your nose was sky high, the prop is pointed at bottom of lake and not pushing you forward. Bow weight should get nose down, and help get mph up. 1000# bow triangle should let you fill both lockers 100%. You probably need a torque prop at this point too if you haven't done that yet.

You should be able to get a decent wave with both rear lockers half full, speeds around 11-12 mph, and not need the bow weight. If nose is too high, don't use wedge.

[kerpluxal]

agree with everyone above. you need more bow weight to start off with,

I have the following setup but with gosurfassist:

Factory ballast full

1100s in rear lockers

400s under coffin seats

no factory front ballast and run a 750 horseshoe under bow seats (does not completely fill) and an 800 in bow walkway.

Wedge is fully down or up to 2 clicks up (depending on size of crew)

Edited June 5, 2017 by kerpluxal

[NWBU]

Are you able to get a good wave by listing it or have you only tried surfing with the suck gate? The bow or walkway bag suggestions above are key to bringing the nose down, and that era of boat probably has the 537 prop or something similar, which won't push the weight you're running.

[Fffrank]

21 minutes ago, NWBU said:

Are you able to get a good wave by listing it or have you only tried surfing with the suck gate? The bow or walkway bag suggestions above are key to bringing the nose down, and that era of boat probably has the 537 prop or something similar, which won't push the weight you're running.

I had GREAT success with listing on the regular side.  But it was TERRIBLE with the suck gate installed.

[Tags]

where are you mounting the suck-gate? How far back and where does it sit in the water when you're underway?

[AJwakedevil]

3 hours ago, Fffrank said:

I had GREAT success with listing on the regular side.  But it was TERRIBLE with the suck gate installed.

I think it was terrible cause you couldnt go fast enough. I bet if you go out and put the wedge down, suck gate all the way back and top at water line, with no ballast it would be good. Add ballast in increments of 25%. It will get better and better until you have too much weight for your current prop to handle (or weight setup requiring more nose weight.) Anywhoo... You can just skip all that and listen to what people are telling you to do.

The suckgate allows your to evenly fill everything. Which means you have much more weight in back now. Which means you need more weight up front.. which means you have total more weight in the boat.. which means you may need a new prop. Or just evenly empty until you can get up to speed.

You could always get a bucket of frogs to put up front. Get them all hopping and that should bounce the bow down. DISCLAIMER... no idea if that would work... but Ive seen guys in a boat on our lake trying to bounce the bow down while Erik Ruck was in tow patiently waiting for a wave

[minnmarker]

6 hours ago, Fffrank said:

I have played around with goofy setups and have not found anything that even looks surfable.  It all turns to whitewater right away and never cleans up.  I've got friends that told me this boat had a better goofy setup than regular but I'm not seeing anything even close to that.  Thoughts?

Usually you get a better wake on the goofy (starboard) side due to the prop rotation.  We do.

More bow weight.  What prop do you have?  How fast were you going?

[Fffrank]

3 hours ago, Tags said:

where are you mounting the suck-gate? How far back and where does it sit in the water when you're underway?

All the way back and just below the rib on the hull. It seemed like it was riding just below the waterline. 

[sChamblee]

Get that gate about 3"!out of the water and find some healthy  American friends to put in the bow. 

17 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

All the way back and just below the rib on the hull. It seemed like it was riding just below the waterline. 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by sChamblee
Not fat... healthy Americans

[Tags]

40 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

All the way back and just below the rib on the hull. It seemed like it was riding just below the waterline. 

hmmmm that sounds about right.......but if its completely below the waterline when you're underway it might be too low. I think your problem is what everyone points out above. You're now carrying additional ballast because you don't need to list and add to that you have a device thats impeding forward progress. Less ballast in the rear and/or additional bow ballast should do it.

[isellacuras]

My first day out with nauticurl I had decent results. Hardly dialed in but I like what I am seeing so far. I have a 750 in the starboard locker and a 675 in the port with 200# of lead on port side. i am temporarily running a 750 in the bow. I had to drop weight in the rear to get to speed. Not much. I also ran with a little list to the surf side. I didn't move people around, I just drained and filled as needed to get what I was looking for. I ran with wedge all the way down. 

[Fffrank]

Played around again last night and getting happier with the results.  Put some human ballast in the front and it was able to get me up to speed.  Nauticurl does help but listing is still better than weighting evenly.  The wedge makes the biggest difference -- hardly even surfable without it.

I'm able to run a max of 10.5 - 10.7mph (not sure how accurate that is, it's what the PP says, though) and get a great wave on both sides.  I'm only turning 3300rpms and it won't rev any higher -- is this normal?

[blk93jeepzj]

Good ol voice activated ballast.  Glad to hear you are getting some better results.  Sounds like you still need some more weight up front.  

My 04 has to have the wedge down as well, only way to get push out of the wave.  Added a floating wedge at the end of last year to replace the manual wedge and it is even better.  

Use a GPS app on your phone to get your true speed then re-calibrate PP.   

What prop are you running?  Sounds like you have hit the limit with the one you have unless you can get the bow down some more.  

Is the swim platform cutting into the surf side wave at all?  If it does on mine it really affects the wave.  Need to raise my platform a little bit.  

[Fffrank]

537 prop.  Swim platform doesn't look like it's really making a difference as far as I can tell.   Floating wedge was worth the swap?  Interesting......  

[blk93jeepzj]

Time for a prop upgrade.  I'd say that you have maxed that one out.  

Floating wedge was worth it to me because I had to get a new one either way due to a stump taking mine out.  Cost was not that much different between the two and opted to upgrade.    

[NCVride]

Pull that wedge up and see if you can get faster than 8.5.  That wedge drags way more than you think.  I have an '06 Vride and run two 750's in the back, 500 mid ship and 500 up front.  I also have a 1235 instead of an 837 but have no problems getting a great wave.  We rarely use the wedge unless we are short on people ballast.  Only use it when there is just driver and rider.  Wedge down seems to make the wake a little more washy for us.  Much easier wave to surf and for beginners to surf with no wedge.  The wave is more mellow and alot less steep so to speak.

[Fffrank]

I understand props and their relationship to speed and rpms and hole-shot, etc.  But I don't understand how a prop would limit the RPMs.....  shouldn't the engine be capable of reaching red line no matter how fast it's actually traveling?  

 

Also -- It looks to me like I have plenty of clearance to move to a 15" prop.  Is this what I should be looking for?

[blk93jeepzj]

Found on the interweb...."ok so the prop is spinning at x RPM and the boat is traveling at y MPH. The two are connected, if you slow the MPH then the RPMs must slow as well because you are not displacing as much water. You are not traveling through the water as fast so unless the prop is slipping it simply cant turn as often."....."Yes, the load lugs the motor rpm's down just like climbing a hill in high gear in your truck."

"Extra weight causes extra drag because the boat sits lower in the water. More drag means the engine has to work harder. You can makew the engine work harder by increasing the throttle to overcome this until you are at WOT, At that point you will not be able to add any more throttle to overcome the extra drag caused by the increased weight."

"The other factor to consider is how the weight is distributed in the boat. Sometimes you can add a few pounds to the bow and get lower planing speeds..."

Edited June 8, 2017 by blk93jeepzj
more info

[Fffrank]

It's not at all like churning up a hill in a high gear.  Cars and trucks can't slip.  Props always slip -- and not at a constant or predictable rate.  And this is something that we all know -- and it makes the first part of your statement completely false.

Quote

"the prop is spinning at x RPM and the boat is traveling at y MPH. The two are connected, if you slow the MPH then the RPMs must slow as well"

You can rev the boat up to 3300rpms and then hit fill on your ballast.  The MPH will certainly drop as the weight increases the load on the hull, but the RPMs will stay constant.

[blk93jeepzj]

I was quoting multiple ideas on the subject thinking one might make more sense, and I think you are over thinking the context.  It not an exact comparison.  Except that vehicles have multiple gears to shift thru, boats have 1 gear, the prop.  Try to take off in a car in 5 or 6 gear and see how well that works, not "slipping" per say but can't get to the desired rpm or speed.    

How about a riding lawn mower blade spinning, you hit a patch of thick or wet grass and the blade bogs the down then the whole mower bogs down and slows.  Blade is slipping like a prop would and mower can no longer get to desired speed or rpms.  Don't over think the example.  

Bottom line you need a different prop, or less rear weight to get to the desired speed if you want to surf.   

 

17 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

 

You can rev the boat up to 3300rpms and then hit fill on your ballast.  The MPH will certainly drop as the weight increases the load on the hull, but the RPMs will stay constant.

  Try this ^^ and when the ballast is full see if you can accelerate past the 3300rpms 

Edited June 8, 2017 by blk93jeepzj
spelling

[minnmarker]

1 hour ago, Fffrank said:

I understand props and their relationship to speed and rpms and hole-shot, etc.  But I don't understand how a prop would limit the RPMs.....  shouldn't the engine be capable of reaching red line no matter how fast it's actually traveling?  

 

Also -- It looks to me like I have plenty of clearance to move to a 15" prop.  Is this what I should be looking for?

I think you have the Monsoon 340?  Get a 1235.  You'll be happy.  Or, you can wait all Summer for the crew to not come to a final decision on a prop for you

You might want to buy two to have a spare.  You are on a river and there's a lot of crap in there right now.

And, no, the engine does not have unlimited power.  The prop does slow the engine down, especially if there is a lot of drag on the hull - like with ballast.

[Fffrank]

Interesting development, guys.  Bow weight has helped a lot on the goofy wave.  I believe I've now got a REALLY solid regular and goofy setup dialed in.  Still struggling with speed and ready to pull the trigger on a new prop.....  but.....  last night the boat would periodically start "racing."  At first I thought the transmission was slipping or the prop was cavitating (you don't usually go from 3300 rpms to 4100 rpms in the blink of an eye), but the motor was running MUCH smoother and making more power and everything was better while it was "racing." 

I believe I've been running with a misfire or dropped cylinder.  I suspect a full tune-up is overdue and should take care of this (and then all my speed problems will be going away.)

[AJwakedevil]

20 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

Interesting development, guys.  Bow weight has helped a lot on the goofy wave.  I believe I've now got a REALLY solid regular and goofy setup dialed in.  Still struggling with speed and ready to pull the trigger on a new prop.....  but.....  last night the boat would periodically start "racing."  At first I thought the transmission was slipping or the prop was cavitating (you don't usually go from 3300 rpms to 4100 rpms in the blink of an eye), but the motor was running MUCH smoother and making more power and everything was better while it was "racing." 

I believe I've been running with a misfire or dropped cylinder.  I suspect a full tune-up is overdue and should take care of this (and then all my speed problems will be going away.)

Interesting symptom, will be interested to hear bakc when you get it looked at. In another thread someone else had my same hull and setup but couldnt push half the weight. That didnt make sense. I can push more weight in my smaller vlx with stock prop than you are, so I would definitely say you should get your engine looked at.