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dm001681

Gas question

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dm001681

I have a 2015 LSV23 with the 409.  I normally fill up gas at the marina I store the boat with, however I'll be trailering it to another lake for a 1 week vacation.  I figure on the way over I'll just fill up the gas tank and save a few bucks.  My question is, can I use 87 or do I need 89 or 93 octane?  I will definitely burn all the gas (and then some) in the week I'm on vacation so it won't sit in the tank for more than a few days.  Am I good with the cheap stuff?

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oldjeep

Manual for a 2015 says:

LS3 and LSA 91 octane

All others 89 octane

 

(Or is a 2015 a Ford engine?)  Manual in the resource section is GM based under a 2015 LSV

Edited by oldjeep

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malibu2004

What your manual say? 

You purchased a $100,000 boat and your worried about saving $20 in gas? That's funny.

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dm001681
Just now, malibu2004 said:

What your manual say? 

You purchased a $100,000 boat and your worried about saving $20 in gas? That's funny.

The reason I can afford a 100k boat is because don't spend needlessly, thanks for the valuable input though!

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malibu2004
7 minutes ago, dm001681 said:

The reason I can afford a 100k boat is because don't spend needlessly, thanks for the valuable input though!

Some needs a snickers. 

 

 

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ORMailbuboater

Indmar has a page that shows what fuel is acceptable for Raptor motors

http://www.indmar.com/Service_Support/Fuel.aspx

400, 440  - 89 octane  Up to 10% Ethanol  E10.  

575  93 octane with a special note if unavailable 91 OCTANE E0 PERMISSIBLE 91 E10 SOME PERFORMANCE LOSS POSSIBLE.   (Running 92 in Oregon no issues)  

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CharlieBeaU
10 hours ago, dm001681 said:

The reason I can afford a 100k boat is because don't spend needlessly, thanks for the valuable input though!

I firmly believe the quality of all of the fluids you put in any vehicle matters. I've always looked at it as a pay me now or pay me later (often times a lot more) scenario.

My recommendation would be to run at least the octane level your manual suggests. I only buy Chevron and Shell gas because I've read their additives are the only ones that truly work in keeping the fuel system clean. I try to buy at stations I know turn their fuel inventory over quickly to reduce the risk of moisture build up in the station's storage tanks that I would then suck into my tank (certainly this is harder if not impossible to know when you're traveling with your boat but it's a best effort). I use Stabil at every fill up. My manual for my ls3 recommends it so I do it.

Spending wisely now to avoid more costly issues in the future is not spending needlessly in my opinion.

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Ndawg12
4 hours ago, CharlieBeaU said:

I firmly believe the quality of all of the fluids you put in any vehicle matters. I've always looked at it as a pay me now or pay me later (often times a lot more) scenario.

My recommendation would be to run at least the octane level your manual suggests. I only buy Chevron and Shell gas because I've read their additives are the only ones that truly work in keeping the fuel system clean. I try to buy at stations I know turn their fuel inventory over quickly to reduce the risk of moisture build up in the station's storage tanks that I would then suck into my tank (certainly this is harder if not impossible to know when you're traveling with your boat but it's a best effort). I use Stabil at every fill up. My manual for my ls3 recommends it so I do it.

Spending wisely now to avoid more costly issues in the future is not spending needlessly in my opinion.

I currently work for a pipeline contractor and in a previous career was a technician for gas station fueling equipment.  I have a pretty good knowledge of the path fuel takes from the ground to your gas tank.  I have yet to figure out where in the path these special additive concoctions are injected, not saying they're not, just would love some insight from someone who might be in the know.  

As for UG storage tanks at gas stations, most are fiberglass, unless they're really old, and obviously water is heavier than gas so it sinks.  The pump's pickup tube is 8-12 inches off the bottom of the tank as to not suck up any water or debris.  There is also a special float sensor that sinks through fuel but floats on water.  If that sensor is floating higher than 2-3 inches off the bottom of the tank it will sound an alarm and they should be having it pumped out.  Anyways, if you're that concerned about it at a particular station or get stuck having to use a particular station then ask them if they will print you a new Veeder Root TLS reading from the tank you would like fuel, remember midgrade is usually a mix of high and low.  The reading should provide the water level.  Not saying it doesn't happen but I'd bet a high majority of cases where water enters they're fuel tank is from another incident or condition rather than from the gas they're receiving.  

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oldjeep
4 minutes ago, Ndawg12 said:

I currently work for a pipeline contractor and in a previous career was a technician for gas station fueling equipment.  I have a pretty good knowledge of the path fuel takes from the ground to your gas tank.  I have yet to figure out where in the path these special additive concoctions are injected, not saying they're not, just would love some insight from someone who might be in the know.  

As for UG storage tanks at gas stations, most are fiberglass, unless they're really old, and obviously water is heavier than gas so it sinks.  The pump's pickup tube is 8-12 inches off the bottom of the tank as to not suck up any water or debris.  There is also a special float sensor that sinks through fuel but floats on water.  If that sensor is floating higher than 2-3 inches off the bottom of the tank it will sound an alarm and they should be having it pumped out.  Anyways, if you're that concerned about it at a particular station or get stuck having to use a particular station then ask them if they will print you a new Veeder Root TLS reading from the tank you would like fuel, remember midgrade is usually a mix of high and low.  The reading should provide the water level.  Not saying it doesn't happen but I'd bet a high majority of cases where water enters they're fuel tank is from another incident or condition rather than from the gas they're receiving.  

 

When I was working in industrial controls the additive packages were added as part of the process of batching fuel for a delivery truck.

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NHolladay

I use ethenol free 87 in my 8.1.  there is an app that will map out all ethenol free stations on your way to the lake.  I get you are using all the gas immediately but still I like the price of mind

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oldjeep
Just now, NHolladay said:

I use ethenol free 87 in my 8.1.  there is an app that will map out all ethenol free stations on your way to the lake.  I get you are using all the gas immediately but still I like the price of mind

I let the E10 sit for 6 months at a time in boats, mowers, snowmobiles and extra cars.  We store a couple hundred gallons of fuel during any 6 month period.   I think the problem seems to be crap gas blends down south or in areas where it is just being introduced.  You just don't hear many if any people up here complaining about fuel problems.

Edited by oldjeep

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Ndawg12
9 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

 

When I was working in industrial controls the additive packages were added as part of the process of batching fuel for a delivery truck.

At the fuel terminal where they would hook to an additive pump/tank or the truck carries an additive tank, or...?

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oldjeep
Just now, Ndawg12 said:

At the fuel terminal where they would hook to an additive pump/tank or the truck carries an additive tank, or...?

There was a series of injection pumps at the ones that we worked on - this was actually at a local refinery which is where most of our local fuel comes from.  The "recipe" was selected and then it mixed it in as it filled the truck.  That is the same way that the ethanol is added to the pure fuel - on the fly.

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NHolladay
45 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

I let the E10 sit for 6 months at a time in boats, mowers, snowmobiles and extra cars.  We store a couple hundred gallons of fuel during any 6 month period.   I think the problem seems to be crap gas blends down south or in areas where it is just being introduced.  You just don't hear many if any people up here complaining about fuel problems.

I agree I ran ethenol for years without fail left it for 9 months at times.  Not in my boat but a can.  One issue with bead gas 1 time years ago and it was with a lawn mower.  My station by my Lake sells it so I figure a few extra pennies and a Little peicee of mind that maybe it will help in the long run 

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sabre

Generally,  I've found that my boat (2012 23LSV with the LSA engine) will knock if I use certain marina's fuel and that running higher octane once in a while prevents that from happening.  When towing from lake to lake, I try and run the fuel down as low as I can before putting it on the trailer.  One thing to think about, at least here in VA is that on the water fuel is at least $1/gallon more expensive than the most expensive high octane fuel I can find between lakes. So,  I look at it as saving money when I fill up off the water, even if I do run the higher octane fuel.  

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CharlieBeaU
2 hours ago, Ndawg12 said:

I currently work for a pipeline contractor and in a previous career was a technician for gas station fueling equipment.  I have a pretty good knowledge of the path fuel takes from the ground to your gas tank.  I have yet to figure out where in the path these special additive concoctions are injected, not saying they're not, just would love some insight from someone who might be in the know.  

As for UG storage tanks at gas stations, most are fiberglass, unless they're really old, and obviously water is heavier than gas so it sinks.  The pump's pickup tube is 8-12 inches off the bottom of the tank as to not suck up any water or debris.  There is also a special float sensor that sinks through fuel but floats on water.  If that sensor is floating higher than 2-3 inches off the bottom of the tank it will sound an alarm and they should be having it pumped out.  Anyways, if you're that concerned about it at a particular station or get stuck having to use a particular station then ask them if they will print you a new Veeder Root TLS reading from the tank you would like fuel, remember midgrade is usually a mix of high and low.  The reading should provide the water level.  Not saying it doesn't happen but I'd bet a high majority of cases where water enters they're fuel tank is from another incident or condition rather than from the gas they're receiving.  

Good info. Thanks. 

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RedOwl

Just to add another wrinkle to the 'what are we putting in our tanks' discussion:

Winter fuel can be distributed as late as June (at least in WI) and depending on the size/activity level of the station, that fuel can sit in gas station tanks until mid-summer. Because winter fuel needs to meet higher RVP standards most refineries use greater concentrations of butane in the fuel because it is cheaper. So depending on various additives that your brand uses, you are pumping all sorts of interesting concoctions into your tanks throughout the year and it is almost never the same.

I'm not suggesting this is a positive or negative, just pointing out that things aren't always what they seem, even when buying the same grade from the same place.

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Woodski

And to RedOwls comment, RVP has a significant bearing on vapor lock thus potential issues due to unknown fuel mixture content.

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APoko
22 hours ago, sabre said:

Generally,  I've found that my boat (2012 23LSV with the LSA engine) will knock if I use certain marina's fuel and that running higher octane once in a while prevents that from happening.  When towing from lake to lake, I try and run the fuel down as low as I can before putting it on the trailer.  One thing to think about, at least here in VA is that on the water fuel is at least $1/gallon more expensive than the most expensive high octane fuel I can find between lakes. So,  I look at it as saving money when I fill up off the water, even if I do run the higher octane fuel.  

What fuel do you regularly run in your LSA if you "run higher octane once in a while"?  Doesn't the LSA require 91+ according to the manual?? My 2013 LSA actually has a sticker on the engine itself that says 92+ octane only.   I usually run 93 E-10 from a land station and add STAR BRITE StarTron Additive.  Occasionally I buy 91 non-ethanol from a gas dock if the boat is in the marina and I don't want to pull it to fuel up.  I have not had any issues running my current formula...  I did have some issues early in the season with vapor-lock/hard starting while running 93 octane E-10 but that has been cleared up since running the StarTron. (There was also some fuel of unknown age/origin in the tank when I bough it this spring)

 

5617741.jpg

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/star-brite--startron-gasoline-additive--P006_186_003_514

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echie

 

Gasoline Engine Vapor Locking

Models

All Mercury MerCruiser 4 Cylinder, V6 and V8 engines.

 

Situation

Under certain conditions, engines may experience a ‘vapor lock’ condition. The three most common complaints that vapor locking cause are:

The engine starts. When the throttle is advanced, the engine quits running and will not restart.

If the engine does restart, it quits when advancing the throttle to get the boat up on plane or to pull up a water skier.

After running the boat and shutting the engine off for 1 to 3 hours, the engine does not want to restart.

Conditions That Affect Vapor Locking

Fuels containing alcohol and ‘winter grade’ fuels will cause vapor locking complaints to increase.

NOTE: The new ‘Reformulated’ fuels have the RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) very carefully controlled.

It will normally take several following conditions to make an engine ‘vapor lock’. These conditions include but are not limited to:

Type, formulation and RVP of the gasoline in the boat’s fuel tank or sold in the area. ‘Winter grade’ fuels sold from October through March in most areas have the highest RVP.

Engine compartment air temperature and its ventilation system.

Temperature and vacuum on the fuel that is being delivered to the engine.

The location of the fuel tank.

The boat’s fuel supply system. This includes Inside Diameter (ID) of fuel line and fittings, fuel line length, routing, bends or kinks and the clamps that secure it. Extra fuel filters, fuel manifolds, anti-siphon valves, shut off valves, tank selector valves and the number of 90 degree fittings used.

Engine coolant temperature.

How quickly the engine is shut off after running at cruising or higher rpms and how long the engine and engine compartment are allowed to cool off after use.

The outside air temperature on the day the boat is being operated.

Corrections That Can Be Done To Help Minimize Vapor Locking

Before looking at the customer’s problem as a vapor locking condition, make sure something else is not causing the running problem.

Air leak in the engine or boat fuel system. Check the tightness of all fuel fittings and clamps. Check for a cracked housing where a brass fuel fitting is threaded in it.

IMPORTANT: Do not pressurize the boat’s fuel tank(s) in this test.

Disconnect the fuel line from fuel tank(s). Pressurize the fuel system that goes to the engine to 8 psi (55 kPa) with a hand pump to see if it holds this pressure. Often systems will leak air but not fuel. Always use a wrench to hold a brass fitting that is threaded into an aluminum casting when tightening another fitting threaded into it to prevent the casting from cracking.

Check the complete fuel supply system of the boat for a fuel restriction. Include the brass fitting threaded into the engine’s inlet in this test. Use a portable outboard fuel tank connected directly to the engine’s fuel inlet fitting as a quick way to test the system.

If these more common problems are not causing the complaint, then continue.

Follow instructions below:

a. Find out what type of fuel is in the boat’s fuel tank. Fuels containing alcohol are more likely to vapor lock on hot days.

b. Find out what the RVP of the fuel in the boat’s fuel tank is. 11 to 15 RVP (cool to cold weather) fuel will change from liquid to a vapor at lower fuel temperature than 8 to 10 RVP (warm to hot weather) fuel will. Refilling the boat’s fuel tank with lower RVP fuel will decrease the chance of vapor locking. Fuels purchased in most areas of the USA from late September through early April will cause most of the problems.

Follow instructions below:

 

a. Over the last several years, engine compartments have been designed to be quieter. This is done by using an insulation material and by making ‘engine covers’ tighter. This can cause high air temperature inside the engine compartment while the engine is operating and for a period of time after it is shut off. This period of time is called the ‘heat soak’ time. The air temperature inside the engine compartment during a ‘heat soak’ will rise higher than during the engine’s ‘running time’. This is because there is no air movement inside the compartment and no coolant flow through the engine. Normally, the quieter the engine compartment is, the hotter the air temperature will be on the inside during the ‘heat soak’. The highest air temperatures during a ‘heat soak’ will occur 30-40 minutes after the engine is shut off and can stay at that peak for up to 1-1/2 hours. This greatly increases the chances of vapor locking.

b. Mercury MerCruiser engine compartment air temperature specification that became effective January 1, 1996 is:

Under the hottest outside air temperature condition that the boat will be operated in, the maximum air temperature inside the engine compartment, measured at the flame arrestor, shall not exceed 176o F (80o C).

c. Increasing engine compartment ventilation to move the hot air out of it during a ‘heat soak’ will decrease vapor locking. Other items that can help reduce vapor locking are:

Letting an engine idle for 3-5 minutes before shutting it off.

Open the engine cover to let the hot air escape.

Operate the bilge blower to remove the hot air.

3. Follow instructions below:

a. Fuel temperature (at the engine’s fuel inlet fitting) and the amount of vacuum required by the fuel pump to draw the fuel from the boat’s fuel tank can contribute to vapor locking.

Mercury MerCruiser’s maximum engine fuel temperature specification that became effective January 1, 1996 is:

Under the hottest outside air temperature condition that the boat will be operated in, the temperature of the fuel being supplied to the engine shall not exceed 110o F (43o C) at any location between the fuel tank and the engine’s fuel pump.

Mercury MerCruiser’s specification for the maximum vacuum measured at the fuel inlet of any MerCruiser engine is:

2 in. Hg (7 kPa) maximum at idle rpm, 3000, full throttle and back at idle rpm.

Use an accurate digital vacuum gauge that reads in either in. Hg (inches of mercury) or (kPa) to check this specification. Common vacuum gauges to check an engine intake manifold vacuum are not accurate enough to make this type of measurement.

b. Reducing the temperature and maximum vacuum of the fuel being supplied to the engine will help reduce vapor locking problems.


NOTE: Carbureted and EFI/MPI with VST models only: The Water Separating Fuel Filter can be removed from the engine to a lower, cooler location. Use a Coast Guard approved fuel line between the filter and the fuel pump. 

4. Check to see if the fuel tank is in an area where engine compartment heat or sun can preheat the fuel that is in the fuel tank. Putting insulation between the fuel tank and the heat source can help keep the fuel cooler.

5. Follow instructions below:

a.

The fuel supply system can be a major cause of vapor locking. Remove all kinks in any of the fuel lines. Move the fuel line to be as close to the bottom of the boat as possible to keep it in the coolest area of the engine compartment. Replace clamps used to support the fuel line with larger clamps if the fuel line is being pinched or constricted with the current clamp.

b.

Reduce the total length of the fuel line to be as short as possible. Eliminate or reduce the number of 90 degree fittings used in the system to no more than 2.

c.

Any anti-siphon valve or restriction that causes a higher than specified vacuum reading can contribute to vapor locking and other driveability problems. If the vacuum reading is too high, try a less restrictive anti-siphon valve or the Electric Anti-Siphon Valve Kit. 

NOTE: An engine that has a vapor locking condition may show a very low vacuum reading. This could be a false reading because vapor can give a very low vacuum reading. Check the inlet fuel line to ensure that a good solid flow of fuel is in the line instead of a mixture of fuel and vapors. As a test only, use a clear plastic hose between the engine and the supply line to look at the fuel flow visually.

d. Going to the next larger Inside Diameter (ID) fuel line and fittings can help lower the vacuum and help correct vapor locking conditions. An example is shown below.

5/16 in. (8 mm) fuel line and fittings ID5.5 in. Hg (17.8 kPa), too high.

3/8 in. (9.5 mm) fuel line and fittings ID2.5 in. Hg (8.2 kPa), too high.

in. (12.5 mm) fuel line and fittings ID0.8 in. Hg (2.7 kPa), good.


NOTE: Engines with 3/8 in. (9.5 mm) ID fuel line and 15 ft (4.5 m) total length or less: Going to a in. (12.5 mm) ID fuel line will not give much improvement. Fuel systems longer than 15 ft (4.5 m) may see an improvement by going to in. (12.5 mm) fuel line and fittings.

e. Mount fuel manifolds as low as possible in the engine compartment to lower the fuel temperature or remove them if possible.

6. Follow instructions below:

     a. Make sure that the engine has the correct degree thermostat in it. Replace with the correct one.

b. Keep fuel lines as far away from engine cooling hoses as possible.

c. EFI and MPI engines with the ‘Cool Fuel’ system should have the fuel cooler temperature measured after the engine is shut off. The coolant hose going to the ‘fuel cooler’ should not get much hotter to the touch after the engine is shut off for 10-20 minutes than what it is with the engine running. If it gets hot after the engine is shut off, hot water from the cylinder block might be siphoning back. Installing the Check Valve Kit will stop this backward water flow. 

NOTE: On inboard engines with water cooled prop shaft seals, make sure the water tap for this seal is not causing the siphoning. The only approved location from Mercury MerCruiser for this water supply is the raw water hose that goes to the 90-degree fitting (with Blue drain plug) in the bottom of the port exhaust manifold.

How quickly the engine is shut off after running at cruising or higher rpms and how long the engine and engine compartment are allowed to cool off after use can greatly affect vapor locking. To help the boat owner reduce their chances of vapor locking, suggest that they do the items listed under 2c.

Nothing can be done about the air temperature the boat is being operated in. By following suggestions outlined in 1 through 7, the causes for most vapor locking complaints can be greatly reduced.

If all suggestions 1 through 7 have been done and engine still does not restart after it is shut off, the Fuel Pump Kit can be used. This kit will help a vapor locked engine to restart. IT DOES NOT CURE VAPOR LOCKING! The engine may still bog on acceleration. Kit contains a low pressure electric fuel pump, Check Valve Kit and installation instructions. This low pressure fuel pump helps feed fuel to the pump in the cool fuel system.

NOTE: If the items in this Service Bulletin are not checked and corrected before putting the Fuel Pump Kit on, the kit might not correct the restarting of the vapor locked engine.

Kit Part Numbers

P/N 21-862271A 1 Check Valve Kit.

P/N 862733A 1 Electric Anti–Siphon Valve Kit.

P/N 862264A 3 Fuel Pump Kit, (contains Check Valve Kit).

Test Equipment

Following is a list of equipment that can be used to testing.

Testing Fuel RVP:

SPX OTC sells a test kit, Gasoline Quality Testing Kit – P/N 7670.

 

Testing Fuel Temperature or Vacuum:

Fittings required to make connections between engine fuel inlet and the boat’s fuel line and fitting.

(1) Pipe Fitting -in. pipe thread at both ends, 1-1/2 in. (38 mm) long.

(1) Tee Fitting – in. female pipe thread.

(1) Schrader Valve – P/N 22-805408.

(1) Cap, Schrader Valve – P/N 22-805515. Tools required to measure fuel vacuum at fuel inlet of the engine.

(1) Digital Compound Gauge, that has an accuracy of within 2% of the reading. Cole-Parmer P/N P-68950-00. (Note 1)

(1) Gauge Guard (30 in. Hg to 15 psi). Cole-Parmer P/N U-07359-02. (Note 1)

(1) Gauge Guard Liquid (4 fl oz). Cole-Parmer P/N U-07359-50. (Note 2)


Tools required to measure fuel temperature at fuel inlet of the engine.

(1) Hose connected to digital gauge with adaptor to connect to the Schrader valve. Can use hose and Schrader valve connector from Fuel Pressure Kit, P/N 91-881833A 2.
(1) DMT 2000 Meter – P/N 91-854009A 3.
(1) Reducer Bushing -in. male to 1/8 in. female pipe thread – P/N 22-48556.
(1) Temp Probe Compression Fitting – 1/8 in. pipe thread. Cole-Parmer P/N H-08539-04.
(1) Temp Probe – 4 in. long with K connector. Cole-Parmer P/N P-08117-45.
(1) Temp Probe Extension Cable – 10 ft long with K connector. Cole-Parmer P/N H-08516-30.

 

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