How much Automation is enough?

[minnmarker]

Are boats getting too dependent on integrated systems?  DaDeuce's recent post about direct wiring his power wedge, and posts about mystery heater operation etc. got me wondering if Malibu (and others) are pushing automation beyond where current technology can adequately support reliability and repairs.  Do the integrated systems inhibit our ability to modify?  Is being captive to one company for replacement parts worth the integration?

[Chatty21VLX]

IMO, seeing posts on here about broken stuff on a 2016 boat is unacceptable. Touch screen this and that has a cool factor, but I just don't see real world use longevity. 

I know malibu is supposed to be in the top tier of wake boat manufacturers, but I don't think unreliable automation is the way to stay there. Stick to your guns: awesome interiors, great hulls that produce world class wakes, quality fit and finish, etc. 

[Nitrousbird]

14 minutes ago, Chatty21VLX said:

IMO, seeing posts on here about broken stuff on a 2016 boat is unacceptable. Touch screen this and that has a cool factor, but I just don't see real world use longevity. 

I know malibu is supposed to be in the top tier of wake boat manufacturers, but I don't think unreliable automation is the way to stay there. Stick to your guns: awesome interiors, great hulls that produce world class wakes, quality fit and finish, etc. 

If they don't do it, they will lose market share.  Period.  As long as Nautique and Master Craft are doing it, Malibu has to do it.  They all have issues.

[ahopkins22LSV]

Just now, Nitrousbird said:

If they don't do it, they will lose market share.  Period.  As long as Nautique and Master Craft are doing it, Malibu has to do it.  They all have issues.

Exactly. Nothing is produced perfect either. All companies have issues on their brand new product across the manufacturing world.

[Chatty21VLX]

Just now, Nitrousbird said:

If they don't do it, they will lose market share.  Period.  As long as Nautique and Master Craft are doing it, Malibu has to do it.  They all have issues.

I understand that, but paying north of  $100k for a brand new boat that has problems within a year is pretty ridiculous. I work in automated industrial environments with worse conditions than a boat is subjected to, and we don't have nearly the failure rate seen in these threads. Either the engineering or the build components are suspect. I understand about the balance between quality, cost controls, profit margin and all that, but damn, a little reliability would be nice... especially considering the relatively small number of units boat manufacturers produce. Automation is super cool, but the technology has been around waaaay too long for it to be unreliable in any top tier wake boat.

I love Malibu boats. I will probably never buy another brand. I was just giving my $0.02 about this topic.

[DaDeuce]

So I've spawned another thread!

 

I think my only problem is that some of this stuff becomes reliant on the dealer and then the lake of information on the whole process. My dealer has always been great for the things I've asked them to do, but I can't justify their pricing for some of these items (like my wedge issue). Andrew at Bakes and even Lenco have been great about getting me what documentation they have, but at the end no one knows if the new control boxes are wired different or what I would need to do to get it to work.

On the automation aspect of everything I think that it is inevitable, however I would like to see some backup modes and/or backup rocker switches made available. I haven't experienced any of the newer Automation, but I know with the high level of abuse our boats take from the elements that these mechanisms will fail over time and then we will all be back to relying on the dealer. My "old" boat costs a decent amount of money each to maintain and repair small things, I can't imagine the cost in 10 years when Maliview panels start going on the fritz (and the related downtime it will cause)

[twitchee2]

I am in the Servo Control system world and automation, on the support side.  As said before its all a balance of cost, performance and reliability.  In the automation world, you really do get what you pay for, everyone is trying to go cheap trying to do more for less with sub part components.  Time after time I see people say "your products are way to expensive, we are going with brand X,"  Only to come back 6 months later saying, oh you were right the cheap stuff didn't work. I really hope Malibu are using quality components and not cheap parts that just look nice.

 

Same things applied to cars.  Cost, Performance, reliability. You only get to pick two.

[IdahoAxis]

This was a major factor for my choice to buy an Axis... I really didn't want to deal with electronic ghosts in the machine. Keep it simple- K.I.S.S

[Lance B. Johnson]

9 minutes ago, Chatty21VLX said:

I understand that, but paying north of  $100k for a brand new boat that has problems within a year is pretty ridiculous. I work in automated industrial environments with worse conditions than a boat is subjected to, and we don't have nearly the failure rate seen in these threads. Either the engineering or the build components are suspect. I understand about the balance between quality, cost controls, profit margin and all that, but damn, a little reliability would be nice... especially considering the relatively small number of units boat manufacturers produce. Automation is super cool, but the technology has been around waaaay too long for it to be unreliable in any top tier wake boat.

I love Malibu boats. I will probably never buy another brand. I was just giving my $0.02 about this topic.

Things are just pushed to market too fast.  The problem I see is that I don't see how Malibu will ever support this stuff 20 years from now.  I personally believe there will be a lot of rewiring going on as people convert these old boats back to switches.

[shawndoggy]

Thing is, malibu, nautique, mastercraft, supra, centurion, etc... are all beholden to the same third party vendors to come up with the electronics integration.  They buy the packages from murphy or medalion or whomever.  I'm sure there's an element of "yeah we can do that" for each of the different integrations, but in the end it's not really capital M Malibu that's doing the actual integration work... they are paying someone else to do that based on Malibu's features and wiring harness.

Big motivation to going backwards to axis this year was toggle switches (though axis peeps are kidding themselves if they don't think they have any electronic integration... it's just LCD instead of touchscreen, and a lot more subtle).

[UWSkier]

This thread can be summed up with one word.  Computron.

[85 Barefoot]

I used to be one of the technology averse.  But as I'm around it more, there's really just a touchscreen and an electronic switchboard.  There's really not ALL that much to go wrong.  the breakdown risk IMO is in the components, not with the way the components are "activated".

With all the malibus getting built, its a little different than computron IMO given the lower production and lower take rate.  I bet there's more VIPERs getting built a month than computrons built in history.  

[Sixer]

I heard one of the other (not Malibu) companies is putting in an automatic surf setting feature for 2017.  It senses the weight in your boat and adjusts the ballast and other surf settings to automatically provide the optimal wave.  How do they do that?  I have no clue, but it will be cool when it comes out.

[Anderson24]

1 hour ago, IdahoAxis said:

This was a major factor for my choice to buy an Axis... I really didn't want to deal with electronic ghosts in the machine. Keep it simple- K.I.S.S

Exactly. And you forgot the last "S"...Stupid

[vaporbluebu]

I disagree that technology = disaster/failure.  I have an original iPad, now 6 years old, had to fix the speaker and that's it.  Kids still use it all the time for movies and touchscreen works as good as the day I bought it.  I take my phone with me every time I go out on the boat and I have never worried about the "harsh" conditions it is exposed to nor do I expect it to fail because of being out on the water.  I've had a number of smart phones and have never had the smart part of it fail.  Sure, I have to reset the software from time to time on products that run non stop, but I turn the boat off all the time and it gets reset.  Screens crack, speakers stop working...yes, but we I still have an iPhone 3 on the boat as our music source and works great.

I'm a pilot by profession and planes are progressing faster than boats.  I fly a computer now that is 8 years old and 100% fly by wire and it has never fallen out of the sky.  In fact thinking of the mechanical issues we have had over the last 3 years I have been working for the company we have not had a single software issue.  They have all been components the computers control and not the computers themselves.  Nose steer actuator blew a seal last week.  Generator blew a gasket and oil drained seizing the bearings.  It is always the mechanical side having issues and not the software side.

I'm not saying there won't be occasional problems, but are Axis problem free while Malibu are software nightmares?  High end products will always be high end and pushing technology advancement and I'm sure Malibu considers themselves a high end boat manufacturer.

[shawndoggy]

Vapor the difference to a degree is that the electronics that go into aircraft have to be FAA compliant so you don't fall out of the sky.  Stuff is overbuilt to the max in planes (and costs a lot as a result).  Boats on the other hand seem to vary pretty widely.  I mean comparing a mass produced consumer item like an ipad, that there were probably 5M of to something like a MTC screen on a malibu, of which there are probably less than 1% as many, is a stretch.

Edited June 10, 2016 by shawndoggy

[vaporbluebu]

I see what you are saying.  My point is that both the highly overbuilt plane technology and mass produced Apple technology both seem to be equally reliable to me.  My Apple phones are not designed at all for marine use, but are put in the exact same conditions out on the lake as my marine ready Maliview screen and both work fine.  I worry a lot more about my surfgate or wedge actuators failing than my touchscreen or phone.

On a side note, the fact that a component on my plane has an FAA stamp of approval makes me feel as safe as the fact that my bank is FDIC insured! ? That generator that failed is one of many that have failed on this same make of engine, all of which are supposed to be overbuilt and FAA certified.  They have since recalled and replaced all of these model generators.  We were lucky and our just seized up.  There have been a few instances of these generators coming off its mount as it seizes and leaving the aircraft.  Luckily no one has been killed as these 50lb generators plummet back to earth!

[Nitrousbird]

4 hours ago, Chatty21VLX said:

I understand that, but paying north of  $100k for a brand new boat that has problems within a year is pretty ridiculous. I work in automated industrial environments with worse conditions than a boat is subjected to, and we don't have nearly the failure rate seen in these threads. Either the engineering or the build components are suspect. I understand about the balance between quality, cost controls, profit margin and all that, but damn, a little reliability would be nice... especially considering the relatively small number of units boat manufacturers produce. Automation is super cool, but the technology has been around waaaay too long for it to be unreliable in any top tier wake boat.

I will say it again, Nautique and Master Craft have the same issues.  Offering the same stuff with the same problems.  People are paying 100k+ for these things.  I'm not and will not.  Obviously enough buyers will otherwise they would start downgrading.

Would be nice if they were more reliable or better QC.  Some of that is fixable with little to no impact to the bottom line for all of them I'm sure.  A nice chunk is being out with the latest/greatest because it simply sells boats better than being more reliable.  Again, if that wasn't the case you would see buyers moving their money elsewhere.

I will not pay 100k+ for a wake boat.  Come upgrade time, probably '18 or so, I will upgrade but another well used boat.  If we ever move to lakefront property the wife has even said we will do a much better upgrade but again no chance of wrapping 100k+ into a boat.  Nice, might keep up with the Jones's but the truth is all it does is drain your bank account without getting you a proportionally better experience.  50-60k boat, maybe.  100k+, not a chance.  Luckily there are enough people out there to keep a nice enough selection of use boats on the market.  Keep upgrading boys, eat that depreciation for me, care for those boats so I can swoop in a couple years later and reap the benefit. :)

 

[RTS]

5 hours ago, Chatty21VLX said:

Stick to your guns: awesome interiors, great hulls that produce world class wakes, quality fit and finish, etc. 

You are describing Malibu Boat Company in the late 90's, early to mid 2000's.

Now it's all about the bling.  Pete should change his signature to  "If you're gonna own a Malibu...you better be an electrical engineer."

[shawndoggy]

16 minutes ago, RTS said:

You are describing Malibu Boat Company in the late 90's, early to mid 2000's.

Now it's all about the bling.  Pete should change his signature to  "If you're gonna own a Malibu...you better be an electrical engineer."

Not just Malibu tho.  Shoot, Sanger is probably the only tow boat company that isn't building a boat with more sophisticated electronics than they did 10 years ago.  Every automated surf system is going to have some form of electronic control box, and last I looked, all tow boat companies had them.

[Slurpee]

I'm glad I'm an electrical engineer then.  I'm all for KISS.  I live in fear of my 2016's future maintenance after warranty. I'll be rewiring things I'm sure.

I don't mind a computer at all being in the boat.  A computer can be redesigned fairly easily as it's just a hidden box with IN's and OUT's.  If parts go EOL then a new computer can be redesigned relatively easily.  What I have a problem with is touch screens. Touch screens are FINICKY.  I know this for a fact because I sell and design them in to customer all the time.  Getting reliable "calibrated" operation on a new system over volume production is a crazy amount of work.  Something like an iPhone has the sheer volume behind it to shake out bugs.  In a boat we're each a beta tester for years.

From a supply perspective I dislike touch screens also.  From what I can tell of the part numbers I've managed to get a look at from the subs these are "industrial" displays.  Which means they cost 10x as much or more than their commercial (i.e. iPad or similar) cousins because the vendors guarantee a lifetime availability that's significant.  Usually 10 years or so at a minimum.  You're paying for spare parts in the future now.  That one reason why a $600 iPhone like function would cost >$6000 at a long life industrial level, and probably >$10000 at low volumes like a boat.  That's how long deployment electronics with touch screens can exist.  Otherwise as soon as that touch panel you're designing with a great price is no longer being bought in the millions by Samsung, then it's End-of-Life and who cares about 1000 pieces a year going to some boat company.

END OF LINE

[23LSVOwner]

You can thank the buying public for all of the electronic wizardry. They want the same things they see in the high end cars now.

Malibu, like all of the other manufacturers builds what the public wants.

I'm all for simple. Like it or not us keep it simple people are not the majority of the buyers now.

[Sixball]

Yeper! I am another simple guy. I don't think the long lay ups off season is any help for all the goodies. Sure don't know why it should make a difference but it just seams that often after the off season down time everything starts to show up.

[-BS-]

18 hours ago, vaporbluebu said:

I see what you are saying.  My point is that both the highly overbuilt plane technology and mass produced Apple technology both seem to be equally reliable to me.  My Apple phones are not designed at all for marine use, but are put in the exact same conditions out on the lake as my marine ready Maliview screen and both work fine.  I worry a lot more about my surfgate or wedge actuators failing than my touchscreen or phone.

Your iPhone 3 still works?  That's amazing.

Both my wife and I have both had upwards of 5 iPhones...... and after 12-24 months.... they've ALL failed and had to be replaced.  Sometimes within warranty, most times not.  I've heard the exact same from dozens and dozens of friends.  I think an IPhone that lasts 5 years is definitely the exception to the rule.

 

Either way, let's be honest here; 99% of the people that are buying these tech laden, 100k boats aren't going to own them in 10 years anyway..... they'll own the new model, and any electronics issues will be left for the 2nd or 3rd owner to deal with....

 

For me,  I simply don't need it in my boat.  I prefer simplicity.  But I have to admit, some of it is pretty cool.  (Saw the lift wedge in action yesterday.... pretty sweet) 

 

Also, you all realize Surfgate is at the center of all this tech right?  You guys that are against all the tech; you're willing to part with the SG system (auto wedge, speed dependent controls, etc)?

 

 

[ahopkins22LSV]

^^ The beginning of all of the technology benign debated in this thread was out a few years before surf gate. Touch screens in 2011, power wedge before that. Surf gate is just an addition to the technology that was already being developed. 

Plus like @shawndoggy said, all of our boats have a ton of electronics in it, the inputs are just different. And yes I realize the different inputs will be cheaper or more exspensive down the road to replace.