2016 PnP hose - Why not overflow style?

[mnwakerider]

Was playing in my A20 and was perplexed at the way my rear PnP is setup. Mainly, I was thrown off by the fact that my hard tanks will start to overflow out of the side, but my 750s are only half full. Takes another 7-10 minutes to fill the bags, all-the-while the overflow is a steady flow....

I asked my dealer how they setup the PnP system and this is the response and they indicated that this was at the direction of Malibu: The factory tank and bag fill at the same time. We split the fill hose and feed both. The tank then drains out the rear port and the bag has its own drain pump further forward.

 

I always thought PnP and overflow systems filled the tank, then overflowed into the bag that was vented out the side. Simple and efficient. Is the way my system setup the way everybody else's? Is there something I am missing? 

[teamerickson]

Are the two drain lines off the bags connected in the bottom of the locker? That does seem weird. I usually get flow up from the tanks into the bags.

[Josh4mc]

Malibu here but mine fills the hard tanks then overflows into the PnPs. Once PnPs are full water will flow out the side.

[mnwakerider]

5 minutes ago, Josh4mc said:

Malibu here but mine fills the hard tanks then overflows into the PnPs. Once PnPs are full water will flow out the side.

That is what I was expecting.... Also dont like I have to burp the bags via the FlyHigh fitting in the back. 

7 minutes ago, teamerickson said:

Are the two drain lines off the bags connected in the bottom of the locker? That does seem weird. I usually get flow up from the tanks into the bags.

Will check tonight and report back. I havent pulled the bags, I was just totally thrown off by the fill being on the top of the bag, not the overflow/vent.

[teamerickson]

Yeah, check how many lines are connected. Mine has 4 per bag. But, I spliced into a vent line for the bag so I wouldn't have to burp. Most have 3 lines.

[Josh4mc]

Just now, mnwakerider said:

That is what I was expecting.... Also dont like I have to burp the bags via the FlyHigh fitting in the back. 

I only had to burp the Flyhighs the first time out with how mine are routed. unless I'm missing something I would look into reconfiguring.

[powderski14]

Mnwakerider what are you running in the bow?

[mnwakerider]

Hard tanks and 750s in the rear (no wedge), belly full and integrated bow sac in the bow. Tried running it with 800 on top of the front seats and was underwhelmed for the amount of work. 

[granddaddy55]

On May 12, 2016 at 10:49 AM, mnwakerider said:

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Are your rear locker   top fill valve handles straight up and down(in line with the valve) or sideways , sounds like your filling the bags from tank underneath only and air in bags are forcing some of that fill out the tank overflow or possibly vent hole before the bottom up fill finishes?

depending on top fill hose length(wrong or right) you can also get a kink in that fill hose right by the valve when the bag increases size to full and I think we may have rotated the valve angle 90 degrees from the original pnp installation, can't remember for sure on that but I think it was part of the kink problem or we maybe we rectified that actually by installing a 90 from plumbing at Loews or  Some combination of above

Edited May 13, 2016 by granddaddy55

[mnwakerider]

I was able to investigate more today on how the system is setup. The fill pump comes in and goes through a "Y" connection to split the fill between the bag and the stock hard tank. The hard tank has a 3/4" hose that is the vent/overflow line that goes out via through-hull fitting (standard stock setup I assume). The bag then fills from the "Y" fitting and drains from a separate pump and through-hull fitting.

I was going to rework the system to be a standard overflow (fill tank, overflow to bag, bag overflow via through-hull), but the 3/4" weak bilge style hose through my plans for the day. Next service I am going to request that my deal change the setup to be the standard style. I am concerned that if the fill is left on, the bag will not vent properly and could cause issues. 

Attached is a rough pic of the hard tank showing the 1&1/8 fill line and the flimsy 3/4" vent line.

(Anybody else surprised to not have standard ballast line for this? My 2003 Nautique 210 was the PVC reinforced on all sections.)

[t a]

On 5/13/2016 at 8:46 AM, granddaddy55 said:

Are your rear locker   top fill valve handles straight up and down(in line with the valve) or sideways , sounds like your filling the bags from tank underneath only and air in bags are forcing some of that fill out the tank overflow or possibly vent hole before the bottom up fill finishes?

depending on top fill hose length(wrong or right) you can also get a kink in that fill hose right by the valve when the bag increases size to full and I think we may have rotated the valve angle 90 degrees from the original pnp installation, can't remember for sure on that but I think it was part of the kink problem or we maybe we rectified that actually by installing a 90 from plumbing at Loews or  Some combination of above

Can you look into how you fixed the kink issue? It's happened twice on me now and I think my hose may just be too long.

Edited May 15, 2016 by t a
mispelling

[mnwakerider]

I would guess your hose is too long. Havent had a kink or issue filling or draining my bags, it just takes longer than it should. 

Also - both bags have 90 degree fittings on the top and straights on the bottom. No issues other than the overflow wasting some of the fill power. 

[granddaddy55]

On May 15, 2016 at 5:47 PM, t a said:

Can you look into how you fixed the kink issue? It's happened twice on me now and I think my hose may just be too long.

 

See my post on "fittment issues" under ballast?,  but we rotated the valve to point fill end down, installed a 90 elbow from lowes and then cut the line to length that would work with nearest fill hole both when flat and where we thought it would be full, also mnwakerider is right,  the flow rite quick connect 90 elbow at the fill end is also critical.  Also leak water from my mushroom bag at any given day from 1 or more of the connections and we run pumps constantly to combat passive emptying thru vents and the leaks, that water in your bilge makes a difference

When you do get all issues fixed and actually fill your boat ,  and I learned Saturday how to properly burp my mushroom bag from the stalk to the crown cause it is in locker with two openings and back air poking the bag up thru locket hole in the walkway had to be pushed to crown to get to release valve in opening in deck of bow and fit more weight in boat (20ft and only a driver and gear) 750s, 950 bow full fuel , wedge, 10.2 and below is how big it gets, wife is 5'3" for reference and stays back from boat and never gets close out of fear

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by granddaddy55

[mnwakerider]

Looks good man! Glad you got the burping and kinks figured out. Wave looks good. If you want something not as steep and longer give the same setup a try without the wedge. My wife loves the melower wave. She does ride a skim board as well. 

[granddaddy55]

11 hours ago, mnwakerider said:

 

Thx, tried no wedge by accident Saturday after left axis ice chest on grass and went to get (stolen), left wedge up on way back out and  was a little bit smaller, it was just a little more work with far less power to all parts of wake,( my back to front recoveries where I get both feet far forward on board toes facing forward weren't there, couldn't find a steady ride point with toes forward) My foam top of wave is rippin  with all kinds of time for stalling a floater and making a maneuver late , no such thing without the wedge, wife doesn't even ride the top .  the floaters crossed or uncrossed are amazing , none of that was there, didn't know it till got in boat for wife turn, 1 hour later.  1st full weekend in my boat after riding the G23 lately, that wave I can do anything I want any way I Wish to do it.   I only 1/2 to 3/4 get that feeling with my wedge down , not at all with wedge up.  But yes it was more than surf able and I rode for 1 hour like it didn't matter and had fun.  Like the "Steep" comment, thank you.  Wife did once no wedge and hated it cause she works so hard to surf and her style didn't get her anything. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by granddaddy55

[gtoddh]

On May 12, 2016 at 0:38 PM, mnwakerider said:

That is what I was expecting.... Also dont like I have to burp the bags via the FlyHigh fitting in the back. 

Will check tonight and report back. I havent pulled the bags, I was just totally thrown off by the fill being on the top of the bag, not the overflow/vent.

In my '16 A20 my rear PNP bags only have 2 lines connected, one on each end at the bottom.  Then there is a single screwed in vent fitting on top of each bag.  These are the Malibu/Axis specific "custom" Fly High 750's.  I say custom because they were about $100 more per bag than the standard 750s and they are not a standard rectangular shape.  The bow end of the bags have a sort of L shape that allows them to tuck under the seat back and completely fill the lower space in the locker without pinching at the top.  

I was told by the dealer that the hard tanks fill first, then the bags fill.  The first time I filled them the vent line started spitting out the side of the boat as you have described.  I checked the bag and it looked full but when I opened the vent fitting I discovered there was a lot of air in the bag and it was maybe half full of water.  I left the vent opened and the bag kept filling.  While that was happening the vent line out the boat stopped spitting.  Once the bag was full I closed the vent fitting on the bag and then the vent started spitting out the side again.  I then turned off the pump.

I haven't taken the bags out to see if there are any other fittings on the bags that would allow for another fill or drain line.  Another local guy with a new '16 A22 has the same exact setup as me and told me he is going to pipe the vent fittings on the tops of the bags out a thru-hull so he doesn't have to manually burp them every time they fill.

On another note, I have the integrated bow sac.  I think it's the one that was designed specifically for the T22/T23.  After it fills it slowly drains.  I don't know if the water is coming out a vent line or if it's pushing back through the pump.  I have to do some investigation on that one.  There are 2 lines attached to the top front of the bag.  The front most one has the grey fitting in the line (I think it's a one-way valve that is supposed to prevent flow back).  There is also at least one line attached to the one back bottom corner of the bag.  I haven't checked to see if there is a lower line attached to the other back corner.  I'm not sure what all the lines are that go into/out of the bow bag.  I have tried searching the forums but for as much info as there is on ballast bags there are very little specifics on the lines in and out and how they're all routed.  Also given that my boat is brand new and no longer allows the fitment of the "mushroom" bow bag there is less experience yet with it.  

Sorry for the long winded post but I wanted to be very specific.  

I look forward to hearing more about your experience with both the front and rear PNP bags and if you've come up with a good solution.

[teamerickson]

The line on top of the rear bags is probably the fill line. If it's was a vent line you wouldn't need to vent the bags. There should be a valve that needs to be opened. It should be connected somewhere on the fill line that's on top of the bag. 

I'll have to think more about the front bag. It doesn't sound like the front is hooked up correctly. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by teamerickson

[mnwakerider]

I will have to check with opening up the breather vent on the bag to see if that impacts the overflow from the hard tank. Hopefully it does, becuase I can then simply join one of the existing venting through hulls. 

 

My bow bag does have a rather consistent drain via the overflow while riding. I was out last night and noticed it nearly the entire time I was the rider/surfer. Frustrating to watch...

[teamerickson]

My front bag just started taking on water while under way. It's been over 2 years! I think it might be the check valve. 

[Simo]

Took delivery of our T22 yesterday and my center ballast is auto filling when speed get to around 30 mph. I noticed a whine coming from the dash that I couldn't figure out until I realized the ballast was full. I'm almost certain the two are connected. Do they come with check valves and if so are they located in the helm area or could the seal on the pump be bad? 

[teamerickson]

Center ballet should have a anti siphon loop in the driver kick panel. Check the duck bill fitting in the top. 

Front PNP has a check valve. 

[Simo]

I will check it out this weekend. Thanks for the info. Lots of new stuff to figure out

[gtoddh]

11 hours ago, teamerickson said:

The line on top of the rear bags is probably the fill line. If it's was a vent line you wouldn't need to vent the bags. There should be a valve that needs to be opened. It should be connected somewhere on the fill line that's on top of the bag. 

I'll have to think more about the front bag. It doesn't sound like the front is hooked up correctly. 

I'll try to spend some more time today with the bags and possibly take them out and look more at them but from what little I have worked with them there are only 2 lines attached.  One front and one back, and both low, pretty much at the floor. The only opening on top of the bag has a screw in "breather" plug, meaning when it's unscrewed it will allow air to escape the bag without having to remove the plug.

11 hours ago, mnwakerider said:

I will have to check with opening up the breather vent on the bag to see if that impacts the overflow from the hard tank. Hopefully it does, becuase I can then simply join one of the existing venting through hulls. 

 

My bow bag does have a rather consistent drain via the overflow while riding. I was out last night and noticed it nearly the entire time I was the rider/surfer. Frustrating to watch...

That's exactly what my bow bag does.  Let me know if you figure out how to stop that.

[granddaddy55]

The passive filling of the bow bag is from the fill pump opening when pump not closed by handle , but switch not on either(we close before we launch so wife can water ski with an empty boat), the passive emptying comes from the fact there isn't enough line before the trap that would provide more back pressure than the length installed(we have trap as high as you can under dash) it's not going to stop and we refill or constantly run to fight it, it comes from when your nose rises and all of the water and pressure pushes aft and forced out the vent(you would have to create a looped multi circle and other feet of length of drain before trap).  And as teamericson says your valves handled are turned the wrong way( read what it is labeled carefully cause that's when I figured out they were closed ). The vent draining before rear bag fills has to be from that or the Air not burped or both.  

Edited May 24, 2016 by granddaddy55

[teamerickson]

I kind of wonder if the passive filling of the front bag is going out the drain line and not the vent line?

Edited May 24, 2016 by teamerickson