14 23LSV vs 16 23LSV

[DarkSide]

The PW2 has more benefit then just the lift setting. The foil is also larger. The PW2 is a fantastic wave SHAPING tool. You can really flatten out the wave or make it fairly steep. It is a huge improvement for surfing in my experience with 14 and 15 MXZ. Ruining same weight and same hull. I can't speak for LSV but in my case huge difference.

Edited October 9, 2015 by DarkSide

[thtrog]

The PW2 has more benefit then just the lift setting. The foil is also larger. The PW2 is a fantastic wave SHAPING tool. You can really flatten out the wave or make it fairly steep. It is a huge improvement for surfing in my experience with 14 and 15 MXZ. Ruining same weight and same hull. I can't speak for LSV but in my case huge difference.

Same experience with the LSV, even the 2015 demo I'm running is doing great with the 350 and 4K ballast.

Edited October 9, 2015 by thtrog

[Sixer]

Ford is an OHC engine. The biggest source of noise is probably the cam chain drive system. It has two of them, a bit more exposed (i.e. not behind the water pump), and longer. I don't know if it uses an NVH chain, or a roller, that would make a difference.

That said, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. And you're comparing a base engine to a premium engine. I'd trade my Monsoon for a Raptor in a heartbeat.

Are you saying the advantages of the Ford engine outweigh the disadvantage of the GM? I'm not following you........I'm far from a motorhead, but I'm not hearing much as far as negative from the old Monsoon vs the new ones with the Ford......

New engines are more efficient, so you burn less gas, but the trade off is that you can't talk to friends in the boat because of the noisy engine?

Edited October 9, 2015 by Sixer

[ID AX]

New engines are more efficient, so you burn less gas, but the trade off is that you can't talk to friends in the boat because of the noisy engine?

I would be curious if the '16s actually are more efficient. I think the new gear reduction may hurt efficiency. I haven't been in a '16 yet but my dealer is hearing complaints about rpms.

[DarkSide]

I got one of the absolute last '15 produced, end of June spray. I would not trade for identical '16. I love the GM power plant. It is fairly quiet, the one and only one thing I wish for is the 5 year vs 3 year warranty. As much as I use the boat that could be huge.

[67King]

Are you saying the advantages of the Ford engine outweigh the disadvantage of the GM? I'm not following you........I'm far from a motorhead, but I'm not hearing much as far as negative from the old Monsoon vs the new ones with the Ford......

New engines are more efficient, so you burn less gas, but the trade off is that you can't talk to friends in the boat because of the noisy engine?

Yes that is what I am saying. The Ford will have a higher BMEP for most of the RPM range, and with similar losses (i.e. induction and exhaust - remember this has "truck" losses, not Corvette losses), will in all likelihood have higher BMEP across the boared, meaning more power and torque. It has a much mroe efficient chamber shape due to the layout of the valves, and the dual plugs make it even more efficient. That means better fuel economy and better power, and it will not be as negatively impacted by lower octane fuel. The primary advantages of the LS are packaging and weight.......which are completely irrelevant here.

I'm pretty much a textbook motorhead, and used to do engine development for a living. WHich of course biases my perspective to technical merit. Haven't actually heard anything but positives on the move other than this one post, but I don't scour the boards.

[DarkSide]

I have heard the "loud" complaint a few times. The other complaint is very high RPM. This may potentially be able to be overcome with proper propping, but not enough 16's in the wild to get real results.

[ahopkins22LSV]

The engine is very loud. Everyone that rode in the boat noticed during our dealer demo. I suspect part of it is because the exhaust routes to the back seat then down under the engine as was mentioned early. The engine did seem strong though.

PW2 is awesome. You can tweak the wave way better than with the original power wedge. It was a great improvement. And the dash is great as well. So those would be the two biggest things that would personally pull me from a 14 to a 15 or 16. Then it would just depend on the deal.

Edited October 9, 2015 by ahopkinsTXi

[Fman]

Yes that is what I am saying. The Ford will have a higher BMEP for most of the RPM range, and with similar losses (i.e. induction and exhaust - remember this has "truck" losses, not Corvette losses), will in all likelihood have higher BMEP across the boared, meaning more power and torque. It has a much mroe efficient chamber shape due to the layout of the valves, and the dual plugs make it even more efficient. That means better fuel economy and better power, and it will not be as negatively impacted by lower octane fuel. The primary advantages of the LS are packaging and weight.......which are completely irrelevant here.

I'm pretty much a textbook motorhead, and used to do engine development for a living. WHich of course biases my perspective to technical merit. Haven't actually heard anything but positives on the move other than this one post, but I don't scour the boards.

Did you read the post about the demo with the 450 Raptor compared to his 450 Indmar? He mentioned there was no noticeable power difference between the two engines. Because I like a quieter cabin (run the FAE on my 410), I would not appreciate the loud engine noise from the Raptor, seems like Malibu might have to address this somehow. I can't imagine many people wanting a loud engine while sitting in the cabin area.

[bbattiste247]

My 2016 23 LSV does not seem to be loud. I told my wife that we need exhaust tips, but we should see if we can find one cheeper that doesn't silent the motor since it isn't loud. I'll see this weekend.

Surfband didn't work at all at first. Malibu did not put in a module to interface with the band. I like the band, but it is kind of hard to use while surfing. I get distracted pushing the buttons and then looking for the change, but now it works fine.

We are hesitant to use the boat for anything other than surfing or wakboarding. Above 20 mph, it rides at very high RPMs and it isn't really set up to cruise long distances. Next spring we'll experiment with various prop sizes.

Edited October 9, 2015 by bbattiste247

[Fman]

My 2016 23 LSV does not seem to be loud. I told my wife that we need exhaust tips, but we should see if we can find one cheeper that does that doesn't silent the motor since it isn't loud. I'll see this weekend.

Surfband didn't work at all at first. Malibu did not put in a module to interface with the band. I like the band, but it is kind of hard to use while surfing. I get distracted pushing the buttons and then looking for the change, but now it works fine.

We are hesitant to use the boat for anything other than surfing or wakboarding. Above 20 mph, it rides at very high RPMs and it isn't really set up to cruise long distances. Next spring we'll experiment with various prop sizes.

What prop are they offering with the new trans ratio?

[Fman]

My 2016 23 LSV does not seem to be loud. I told my wife that we need exhaust tips, but we should see if we can find one cheeper that doesn't silent the motor since it isn't loud. I'll see this weekend.

Surfband didn't work at all at first. Malibu did not put in a module to interface with the band. I like the band, but it is kind of hard to use while surfing. I get distracted pushing the buttons and then looking for the change, but now it works fine.

We are hesitant to use the boat for anything other than surfing or wakboarding. Above 20 mph, it rides at very high RPMs and it isn't really set up to cruise long distances. Next spring we'll experiment with various prop sizes.

I would bet Larry at Fresh Air Exhaust could make you a surf pipe that would be quieter than the turn down tips. With one exhaust port it seems like it would be a simple install and fabrication. I think Nautique already offers a surf pipe with one exhaust port.

[catalac]

From the reading I've done the 410 raptor is 385hp, 405tq, the 450 is 403hp, 424tq. You would never tell the difference between the two as the hp is at 5500rpm and the torque is a small bump at 4500rpm places we never run these boats. Go 410 or 575 skip the 450. Apparently they are way overproping the 16's as well, 410 is 36mph top speed according to demo rides in lsv.

Ps loudness is engine noise the 6.2 in the f150 I had was a loud motor, quite exhaust, sounded like a NASCAR when running wo through the gears.

Edited October 9, 2015 by catalac

[cwkoch]

Transmission- something I forgot to mention. I didn't notice any big performance difference in the transmission. I'm not sure how the boat was propped though.

What I did notice was more noise! They switched from the ZF tranny to a Velvet Drive. There was significantly more whine out of the transmission while underway. I would almost compare it to the ZF in reverse, but it wasn't quite that loud.

Either way, Malibu has a LOT of work to do in noise suppression on these boats. I might have thought the "loud boat" was cool back in my mid-twenties, but now that I'm mid-thirties with young kids, it's just annoying.

[thtrog]

What prop are they offering with the new trans ratio?

2277 (15 x15.75 x .150) is standard and 2249 (15 x 14.25 x .105) torque prop. Sounds like there's work to be done here...I would start with the 2277 if that's the only factory options.

[Davidda]

2249

[67King]

Transmission- something I forgot to mention. I didn't notice any big performance difference in the transmission. I'm not sure how the boat was propped though.

What I did notice was more noise! They switched from the ZF tranny to a Velvet Drive. There was significantly more whine out of the transmission while underway. I would almost compare it to the ZF in reverse, but it wasn't quite that loud.

Either way, Malibu has a LOT of work to do in noise suppression on these boats. I might have thought the "loud boat" was cool back in my mid-twenties, but now that I'm mid-thirties with young kids, it's just annoying.

That may be it. Gearboxes are typically a lot more noisy than engines.

[bbattiste247]

My 2016 23 LSV out of Las Vegas came with the 1235 prop. It revs awfully high. I am thinking of trying the standard 2277.

Edited October 9, 2015 by bbattiste247

[Fman]

My 2016 23 LSV out of Las Vegas came with the 1235 prop. It revs awfully high. I am thinking of trying the standard 2277.

Wondering if you are experiencing prop slippage, one prop you might consider is the OJ 948 or at least go with a 15" diameter prop over a 14.50".

[cwkoch]

That may be it. Gearboxes are typically a lot more noisy than engines.

Nope..... Mostly engine noise, some gearbox noise.....

[augie09]

From the reading I've done the 410 raptor is 385hp, 405tq, the 450 is 403hp, 424tq.

so is the 450 just a ecm reflash? or is the cam changed to?

[Ronnie]

One thing I have noticed on the 15 (and probably the 16), if you look at the back of the rear seat in the engine compartment. There is a cutout in the sound deadener for the back of the control unit mounted in the back seat. That needs to be filled to stop noise from entering the cabin. Right now it's an open hole to project sound. In earlier models the deadener was over the hole stopping the sound.

Another thing I have noticed over the years is, any big change to these boats is mostly met with negative opinions until enough people own the new boats. After that it is the norm for these boats and it's not an issue. I've seen it with the new Illusion in '06, the Current towers, the changes in gel schemes, changes in interiors and many more changes over the years. This engine and vinyl thing will slowly fade out of the complaint department. I have been in a few boats by a few different builders other than Malibu with the Ford motor and they are all loud. That's going to be the new norm. There have been a few minor changes that were one year changes that were big goof ups (dashes), that didn't stay on the next years boats but for the majority of changes, we get used to it.

[shawndoggy]

so is the 450 just a ecm reflash? or is the cam changed to?

according to the wakeworld posts I remember from last year, the two engines are EXACTLY the same (maybe a different color plastic beauty cover).

At least between the LCR and the monsoon there was an intake, knock sensors, alternator upgrade, etc.

Enginenut, if you are reading this, could you weigh in?

[05hammerhead]

Are people serious that PW2 is worth $20,000? Are you guys really that good at surfing?

[shawndoggy]

IMHO (and this is purely opinion)... the value of a 16 would have to be the 5 year warranty and the substantial upgrade (even if it's loud) to the base motor. How much more does a "base" '16 LSV cost over a leftover '15 with a 3 year warranty and a 409? I've gotta think the value is there for the '16.

As between '14 with LS3 and a 15 or 16, I'm doubting that there's THAT much performance to be gained on the water (but I'm also blissfully ignorant of the PW2's capabilities). As for the '14 dash... yeah, not Malibu's best work. But is going to a 15 or 16 worth the cost of a good used truck to get a tach? For some people clearly yes. Or you can add an ugly aftermarket tach for $20 and keep that $15-25K in your pocket.

At this point for me there would be no compelling reason to go with a 15 over a 16 in light of the 16's generous warranty and stepped down tranny. The high RPMs thing will work itself out once more people get these on the water and start propping them correctly. Under no circumstances would I want a 14+ LSV propped with anything less than 15" diameter prop, so I'd consider bbattiste247's experience to just be a mistake/outlier that the dealer should correct for free.