Are we over weighting surfgate boats?

[Fman]

I have been experimenting with surfgate last couple times out. Our typical weight was 800's in rear lockers, 650 lb bow bag, hard tanks and wedge at 10.6 mph. The wave seems nice and fun...last time out I ran no bow bag, put two people in the bow, filled rear bags about 80%, hard tanks full, wedge 2-3 clicks and I really could not tell any difference between the two configurations. At least it felt the same riding them on goofy side. The boat feels better, easier to drive, etc...

So, million dollar question, does surfgate need all this extra weight? Are we just burning extra fuel and filling extra bags for no reason? Has anyone else played around with lighter weight set ups?

[Stevo]

Possibly, but i find that nobody really sits still, or at least my kids don't, 5,7 but they aren't a weight factor, but the adult on supervisor duties does move around to keep an eye on them. (not when under way, but on pick up they move to another seat)

ballast is pretty easy to adjust at the touch of a button , more adults means less riding time for me (selfish) but it does mean more gas $$. so you may be onto something there.

tangent, saw a Malibu the other day with a white sticker on the inside of the black illusion x tower that read "THIS BOAT DOESN'T RUN ON THANKS" I get it.... but kind of a Richard thing to put out there like that IMHO

[wedge88]

I too, have wondered this. I just ordered my Sumo 750s rear sacks mainly due to advice I had received on this forum but my dealer swears the 550s are the magic spot for my boat. I plan to do a comparison with these full vs 80% full. I have the 950 bow sack (which I'm told only fills to about 650lbs). We are coming from a SSLXI with 1000lb bags and wedge so our A22 with stock ballast, front pnp and wedge with 6 adults was a lot of fun at 10.8-11mph. I am hoping the rear bags make it that much better.

[IXFE]

To me this is like the ever perplexing engine discussion... there never seems to be a consensus. One guy swears the 450 is crap at elevation while another guy says the 350 gets it done. Who's right...? Maybe they both are.

Same with props. One guy claims he can surf his boat slammed with a 2419 and only sees 3100 rpm. Another guy's experience says 4000 rpm. Who's right...? Maybe they both are.

My experience with SG... I definitely noticed a difference moving from the '13 VLX to the '14 LSV (weighted the same). However, throughout last year I tried many different bow ballast variations on the '14 LSV... I never really could nail down which was best (bag in bow, bag in walkway, no bag kids only, etc.). Mind you, it was a great wave, but I always felt like I should be seeing more differences between each setup (they are sooo subtle), and I secretly felt like I wasn't getting EVERY LAST OUNCE out of it. So, last year I started the Official '14 LSV Surf Recipe thread as a somewhat naive attempt to see if we, as a forum, could through our collective efforts learn from each other and document what a "dialed" LSV looks like... but my effort was a failure. That thread is full of all kinds of differing opinions; some guys claiming the LSV surf better without any bow weight! In short, that thread only added to my confusion.

I don't have enough hours on the '15 LSV yet to have an opinion... but it should have been better, right? I went from 750's that only partially filled to 820's that completely fill up in the lockers. And I went from a 750 in the bow to a 1,000 triangle. Yet the one time I loaded it up, I had the same question... is this really better than my '14...???

Here's what I think happens... we take generally accepted rules (e.g. the boat needs bow weight, or the more bow weight the longer the wave) and turn up the contrast... if bow weight is good, more is better, right? So we blindly assume 1,000 is better than 650 (I was guilty of this type of thinking this year).

Let's not discount Afun's role in all this (I luv ya, buddy)... two years ago he took a '13 VLX 350 and slammed it with 5,000 lbs of ballast, then posted wave pics that we all drooled over. So we take the newer, deeper boats like the 22 VLX and 23 LSV and think... "If more weight worked for Afun's VLX, imagine how much I can achieve with new, deeper boat!" I actually put this to the test last year in my '14 LSV. While I didn't have custom dong sacks, here's what I did to replicate... 750's in the lockers, 900 in the bow, and 800 mattress bag on the floor, and another 750 in the walkway. All that on top of stock ballast and wedge. That's just over 5,000 lbs. of water weight + wedge. Wave should have been EPIC, right...? Well, let's just say I was so impressed with that setup that I replicated it exactly ZERO times after that.

I dunno... maybe part of my issue is that I'm not a finely tuned instrument... i.e. the differences are there, I just suck at discerning them.

I'll be in Shasta all next week so I'll have plenty of time to tinker with the new boat. I'm under no illusions anymore that there's a magic pill.

[vanamp]

Well last summer I built a DIY gate and if I filled the ballast the gate would be underwater completely and the wave was OK. This summer I added about 4 inches to the top of my gate and the wave is awesome with ballast full.

Not sure if a factory surf gate can have the same problem when it's too far underwater.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shawndoggy]

my takeaway (after only 15 hours in a SG boat, so take it FWIW), is that a very solid wave can be had with about 3K total ballast in the 14+ LSV. I have 150 in lead stuffed under the floor/hard tank cover in the bow, and bow bag or no bow bag the wave was not appreciably different for me at 12mph (but maybe more bow weight does lengthen the wave if going slower?). So 150 in lead may be "required" but it may also be "all that's needed." And rear weight may be less for the 15s with the new larger wedge.

The other balance is utility. My old boat had sacks that filled the rear lockers, literally FULL. Of course we were listed, so only one at a time, but that meant moving stuff (vests, tube(s) (gasp!), etc) when switching sides. The two 750s on the other hand don't take up all the room at all. Maybe 2/3 max. So now I don't need to move stuff. If I'm not running the bow sack, the whole boat stays totally useable and there's very little indication that the boat is being consumed by weight. Which is good because we are usually out for the whole day and need storage space too.

Which is all to say that if I'm less than "maxed out" that's probably OK because I find the (goofy) wave that I have is plenty long and big enough for me to execute my limited bag of tricks on. There's even tons of push at the back so a little bobble can be recovered.

Edited June 9, 2015 by shawndoggy

[IXFE]

my takeaway (after only 15 hours in a SG boat, so take it FWIW), is that a very solid wave can be had with about 3K total ballast in the 14+ LSV. I have 150 in lead stuffed under the floor/hard tank cover in the bow, and bow bag or no bow bag the wave was not appreciably different for me at 12mph (but maybe more bow weight does lengthen the wave if going slower?). So 150 in lead may be "required" but it may also be "all that's needed." And rear weight may be less for the 15s with the new larger wedge.

The other balance is utility. My old boat had sacks that filled the rear lockers, literally FULL. Of course we were listed, so only one at a time, but that meant moving stuff (vests, tube(s) (gasp!), etc) when switching sides. The two 750s on the other hand don't take up all the room at all. Maybe 2/3 max. So now I don't need to move stuff. If I'm not running the bow sack, the whole boat stays totally useable and there's very little indication that the boat is being consumed by weight. Which is good because we are usually out for the whole day and need storage space too.

Which is all to say that if I'm less than "maxed out" that's probably OK because I find the (goofy) wave that I have is plenty long and big enough for me to execute my limited bag of tricks on. There's even tons of push at the back so a little bobble can be recovered.

Totally agree with the push comment at the back of the goofy wave... very hard to just fall out of it unless you're doing so on purpose (tired). When I find myself way back there (when you can feel it on your left ankle), it really only takes some gas, or a few easy pumps and away you go!

[Stevo]

Totally agree with the push comment at the back of the goofy wave... very hard to just fall out of it unless you're doing so on purpose (tired). When I find myself way back there (when you can feel it on your left ankle), it really only takes some gas, or a few easy pumps and away you go!

Looks like I have to learn to surf goofy then. I'll add this to the wakes surfing goals thread

[pook77]

Looks like I have to learn to surf goofy then. I'll add this to the wakes surfing goals thread

It's super easy if your already goofy footed like I am . Regular side is a complete mind freak for me to get my head around.

[DAI]

Here's what I think happens... we take generally accepted rules (e.g. the boat needs bow weight, or the more bow weight the longer the wave) and turn up the contrast... if bow weight is good, more is better, right? So we blindly assume 1,000 is better than 650 (I was guilty of this type of thinking this year).

This type of thinking is what screws up my golf swing every single year.

[Fman]

I will usually just move two peeps to the bow for a little weight up front. I am definitely going to be running lighter for remainder of the season, surf wave is fine for us and it's just easier to drive the boat and not have a big bag sitting on the front seat. Maybe malibu was on to something putting 550's in the lockers...if you think about it, the more transom weight, the more bow weight needed which flattens out the boat. So are you really gaining much in wave quality sinking the boat equally???. My thought is a little but maybe not enough to significantly produce a better surf wave. I'm hoping I can make the July 1 TMC get together at Rollins, I want to surf kevin's lsv to get a comparison on waves. I don't get much action behind other boats too often.

[catalac]

I have been experimenting with surfgate last couple times out. Our typical weight was 800's in rear lockers, 650 lb bow bag, hard tanks and wedge at 10.6 mph. The wave seems nice and fun...last time out I ran no bow bag, put two people in the bow, filled rear bags about 80%, hard tanks full, wedge 2-3 clicks and I really could not tell any difference between the two configurations. At least it felt the same riding them on goofy side. The boat feels better, easier to drive, etc...

So, million dollar question, does surfgate need all this extra weight? Are we just burning extra fuel and filling extra bags for no reason? Has anyone else played around with lighter weight set ups?

That commentary makes me feel better about not going haywire with set up, my 22vlx been running hard takes full 550s pnp full no bow bag 10.4-10.6 and I think the surf is killer (compared to my 08 vtx)

[DAI]

Keep talking up the 550 ballast bags please; I've got a couple for sale:

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?/classifieds/item/1247-pnp-550-rear-ballast-bags/#questions

[surfdude]

Like I said n another thread, a buddy of mine just got a demo 14 lsv, he pulled me over on the river to help him set his boat up for surfing. We had just been surfing in mine (900 sumos, 1100 bow bag, full factory) . His came with the 550's and he didn't have a bow bag. He prolly had8 or 9 people in the boat. After getting rid of the presets from the factory,we ran the boat to test the wave. Looked every bit as good as mine or better! 3 people in the bow, 550's not all the way back in the rear lockers, and the wave looked a bit cleaner. Didn't have time to ride it though

Edited June 10, 2015 by surfdude

[teamerickson]

IDK. I thought there was a pretty big difference running 4k as opposed to ~2800. The ~2800 (hard plus pnp) is great but I don't like running super heavy. How much have you tried Travis?

[Fman]

Stephen, heaviest in my 22 vlx has been 800's, 650 bow, hard tanks and wedge 2-3 clicks...so call it 4000 lbs with wedge. With 5 people on the boat...I surfed both set ups and really could not feel any difference going lighter (approx 650 in lockers, no bow bag (2 people), hard tanks and wedge. I'm not that great of a surfer so maybe someone advanced would be able to feel the difference.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Fman

[dielawn]

Stephen, heaviest in my 22 vlx has been 800's, 650 bow, hard tanks and wedge 2-3 clicks...so call it 4000 lbs with wedge. With 5 people on the boat...I surfed both set ups and really could not feel any difference going lighter (approx 650 in lockers, no bow bag (2 people), hard tanks and wedge. I'm not that great of a surfer so maybe someone advanced would be able to feel the difference.

I can confirm my sweet spot on the 22vlx is, 650 rear bags filled only 50-60%, hard tanks filled, wedge at 2-3 clicks. Very similar to you "light" setup. As for speed its not about MPH but rpm. And the wave usually is perfect at 3,000-3300rpm.

[kscales]

Whats funny about this is when I 1st went out in a 2013 VLX SG with 4 tank MLS. for a demo ( I think I posted a thread about it ) All I had to bring was a couple 400's ( dealer had no extra ballast)

We had 4 adults, ( 3+1 surfing) 400 in each locker and about 1/2 tank of gas and had a blast all day with that setup. I remember the wave being fun and saying to myself SG really works!.. This was back when all the competitors were claiming SG had no push..LOL

So maybe it is worth a shot again just to see for myself.

[Fman]

I can confirm my sweet spot on the 22vlx is, 650 rear bags filled only 50-60%, hard tanks filled, wedge at 2-3 clicks. Very similar to you "light" setup. As for speed its not about MPH but rpm. And the wave usually is perfect at 3,000-3300rpm.

So you are saying 300-350ish in each rear locker, hard tanks and wedge?

[bunji169]

I will usually just move two peeps to the bow for a little weight up front. I am definitely going to be running lighter for remainder of the season, surf wave is fine for us and it's just easier to drive the boat and not have a big bag sitting on the front seat. Maybe malibu was on to something putting 550's in the lockers...if you think about it, the more transom weight, the more bow weight needed which flattens out the boat. So are you really gaining much in wave quality sinking the boat equally???. My thought is a little but maybe not enough to significantly produce a better surf wave. I'm hoping I can make the July 1 TMC get together at Rollins, I want to surf kevin's lsv to get a comparison on waves. I don't get much action behind other boats too often.

I hope you can all make it on July 1st as well. I have come to a similar conclusion. More weight does not always produce a noticeably better wave. I have 200lbs of extra weight in bow (Dumbell weights on top of tank under carpeted cover). I have 1100lb bags in each locker. Other than that only stock ballast. And I Never use the wedge. Crazy, I know. But after many before and after comparisons, I don't get a noticeably better wave that justifies the extra 300-400 rpms the wedge causes. I estimate that the 1100's only fill to around 800-900lbs each. When I have a full boat of passengers, I usually only fill them half way. We love our wave. And so do most people that ride it. Our wave is more than sufficient for what our friends and family do.

[dielawn]

So you are saying 300-350ish in each rear locker, hard tanks and wedge?

Yes, granted I usually do have a good amount of people in the boat.. BUT i will say that I think the main difference is, having a ton of weight directly in the back, such as the lockers is not necessarily better. Remember you want a proper ratio for weight in the bow, just as much as you want weight in the back. So if you do not have a proper amount of weight up front, it doesn't help to slam the back of the boat.

Also Bunji169 made a valid point too, I suppose depending on your boat and weight distribution, the wedge doesnt have to be engaged at all for a nice wave. My 07 VTX had a great wave with the wedge not engaged. May have to mess around with no wedge on the 22vlx this weekend.

[shawndoggy]

I hope you can all make it on July 1st as well. I have come to a similar conclusion. More weight does not always produce a noticeably better wave. I have 200lbs of extra weight in bow (Dumbell weights on top of tank under carpeted cover). I have 1100lb bags in each locker. Other than that only stock ballast. And I Never use the wedge. Crazy, I know. But after many before and after comparisons, I don't get a noticeably better wave that justifies the extra 300-400 rpms the wedge causes. I estimate that the 1100's only fill to around 800-900lbs each. When I have a full boat of passengers, I usually only fill them half way. We love our wave. And so do most people that ride it. Our wave is more than sufficient for what our friends and family do.

You know what I was thinking the other day... a really slick way to add lead would be to have the cushion bases on the bow cushions changed over from starboard to lead. You could probably get a couple hundred pounds up there that way and nobody would know it till you tried to move a cushion.

[bunji169]

And you would never have to worry about cushions flying out!! I was able to fit 8- 25lb dumbell weights (200lbs) on top of bow tank and put carpeted cover back. You can't tell they are there. I also wrapped them in plastic just to keep them dry. It does add more tongue weight when towing but I don't think its noticeable.

[Fman]

Wow, this is all good stuff...I never even thought about not using the wedge. Will definitely be experimenting with that recipe. Maybe just 800's full, and hard tanks with a couple people in the bow

..it would be nice not having to use the wedge, it's a great accessorie, but definitely sucks the fuel down.

[Cory]

Last year (in my 2013 VLX), I traded my 750 lbs PNP sacs for 600 lbs PNP sacs. I got much better results out of the boat and wave overall. I purposefully opted for the ronix 600 lbs bow sac over the SL 650 lbs this year cause I felt that was too much weight (I would have preferred a 500 lbs bow triangle). I'm on record months ago wishing the Wakemaker's custom sacs for the 22VLX were smaller around 650 lbs each. Yes, you can just fill sacs less, but repeatability becomes difficult and ensuring even (or slight bias) L-R weight distribution is difficult. I'm already starting to consider asking Wakemakers to make me a 650lbs version of their custom sacs with the same port configurations, but slightly shorter under the bins so that my shower head stops getting pushed out and not as high so I'm less likely to get siphoning through the overflow. I still need to play more--we have only surfed on three occasions so far.