Wetsounds 420 SQ Power Wiring Question

[wedge88]

I apologize if this exists on the website but I did search extensively last night and didn't find what I was looking for.

I am adding a WS 420SQ to my Axis A22 SP2. The audio routing is taking care of but I want to move my HU and EQ off an ACC switch (right now the HU is powered off the main key). The ACC switch appears to have ground and power already to it (Orange Wire and Black Wire) but I haven't dove quite deep enough into the install to verify. What is the best way to power both units off this one switch? Wire Gauge recommended?

Thanks in advance and I apologize if this has already been discussed (which I'm sure it has) but I couldn't find it.

[dezul]

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?/topic/48712-bypassing-ignition-for-stereo-on-2014vlx/

Take a look at the thread above. It this something you are wanting to do?

[MLA]

Wedge,

To start, the only ground on a switch, is for its illumination. I would not tap into that as my ground for audio. The ideal spot to terminate the audio ground, including the EQ, is battery direct or amp ground terminal.

Next, an ACC is used to trigger the head-unit on, not to actually "power" it. Powering it is done by the head-unit's yellow B+/MEM. The EQ's B+ also needs to share this same termination. I prefer to terminate at the amp B+ terminal.

Continuing, you will use the helm mounted ACC switch to trigger the head-unit via its red turn-on wire.

Lastly, the EQ gets its wake up trigger from the head-unit, same as the amps do from the blue/wht REM wire.

14ga

[wedge88]

Wedge,

To start, the only ground on a switch, is for its illumination. I would not tap into that as my ground for audio. The ideal spot to terminate the audio ground, including the EQ, is battery direct or amp ground terminal.

Next, an ACC is used to trigger the head-unit on, not to actually "power" it. Powering it is done by the head-unit's yellow B+/MEM. The EQ's B+ also needs to share this same termination. I prefer to terminate at the amp B+ terminal.

Continuing, you will use the helm mounted ACC switch to trigger the head-unit via its red turn-on wire.

Lastly, the EQ gets its wake up trigger from the head-unit, same as the amps do from the blue/wht REM wire.

14ga

Thanks MLA.

Just so I understand. It looks like I need to get:

--(1) ground wire from HU and (1) ground from EQ back to Amp Ground Terminal.

--Then I need B+ from HU and B+ from EQ to Amp B+ terminal. (Does the HU B+ already route here or somewhere else with stock setup?)

--Move Red Turn on wire from key to ACC switch

--Add REM wire from HU to EQ (just like the amps get)

I assume both ground and power wires need to be 14awg but the REM is 16-18awg correct? Do these wires need shielding.

[dezul]

You should be able to use your typical coated twisted copper wire. The remote can be 18awg.

[MLA]

Thanks MLA.

Just so I understand. It looks like I need to get:

--(1) ground wire from HU and (1) ground from EQ back to Amp Ground Terminal.

--Then I need B+ from HU and B+ from EQ to Amp B+ terminal. (Does the HU B+ already route here or somewhere else with stock setup?)

--Move Red Turn on wire from key to ACC switch

--Add REM wire from HU to EQ (just like the amps get)

I assume both ground and power wires need to be 14awg but the REM is 16-18awg correct? Do these wires need shielding.

Correct. Sorry, I do not know for sure, where the head-unit's B+/MEM and GND currently terminate.

[wedge88]

Correct. Sorry, I do not know for sure, where the head-unit's B+/MEM and GND currently terminate.

I found the below post from another topic when google searching from you, MLA. I think this about sums up what I am doing so I may not need to run new power and ground from HU as it is already powered, correct? I was under the impression the key was powering the HU but it is actually just a 12V trigger, correct? In my last boat, I had to turn the key either forward or back and then I hit my stereo ACC switch to turn on amps. If I leave the HU power like it is now, wouldn't it effectively work the same way? (The ACC would just REM turn on HU, EQ and Amps but the key would still need to be on)

If this would work then I just need B+ power and Ground from EQ to Battery, move red power turn on from Key to ACC and add REM wire from HU to EQ. Does this make sense?

"No, its actually not. The key is only sending a 12V trigger signal to the head-unit telling it to turn on. What you call "power", is referred to as B+ (battery + or also called constant B+). This and the ground already exist at the head-unit.

As stated before, you are trying to mix two entirely separate circuits together, but they are separate discussions and need to be wired differently. The B+ and GND that power the head-unit (the two wires that actually supply the current the head-unit runs on) Do not in any way shape or form, need to go to the ACC switch. This is a completely separate function that you are wanting to use the ACC switch for.

In your original post you indicated that you wanted to use an unused ACC toggle to turn the head-unit on and off. To do this, you need to leave the head-unit yellow B+ and black wires as they are....ignore them, they do not exist right now. The only wire you need to touch is the head-units red trigger wire currently on the ignition switch ACC terminal. It needs to be moved over to the switched side of the ACC toggle. You can supply power for this toggle switch from under the helm. I would piggy-back off the toggle next to it, if its not already done. Boom, your done! This circuit draws sooo little current and will not induce noise into the stereo. The head-unit will now turn and off via the toggle.

The above ACC toggle to turn on/off the head-unit is in no way tied to how and where the head-unit, new EQ and amps draw power from. If your boat has an existing dual battery switch, without an ACR/VSR, then all these components need to share the same power source, which would come form the common post of the switch. If your boat came OEM with the dual-battery switch, then there is a good chance that the helm BUSS supply is already drawing off the "C" post of the switch. If so, then you may not even need to run any new wires around the boat for the head-unit or EQ. "

[MLA]

i have not gotten too deep into many Axis OEM wiring, so there may be some unknowns about how the head-unit and amps are wired. What I do know, is how i would want to have them wired.

Yes, the head-unit's red wire (red at the head unit but could be any color on the boat harness) is only a turn on trigger. The yellow (again thats the head-unit color) is the 12V B+ that carrys the load.

It is possible that the turn-on goes through the key switch 1st, then to the rocker marked stereo, since the key has to be in the ACC or RUN, in order for the rocker to work. If thats th case, its just a mater of supplying a constant 12V to the input side of the stereo rocker, rather that switched from the key.

Next, trace the yellow and black, again they could change colors on the boats actual harness, to see where they go. I like to terminate them at an amp or a distribution block for the amps. Especially the B+ in boats with dual batteries. The EQ should share these same circuits.

[wedge88]

It is possible that the turn-on goes through the key switch 1st, then to the rocker marked stereo, since the key has to be in the ACC or RUN, in order for the rocker to work. If thats th case, its just a mater of supplying a constant 12V to the input side of the stereo rocker, rather that switched from the key.

So..If I don't supply 12V to the input side of the stereo rocker, I would have to turn the key to ACC or Run as well as flip the switch but if I get 12V to the rocker then I basically by-pass the key all together?

I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to help me. If you're ever in the St. Louis area, beers are on me.

[MLA]

Correct. If the rocker is not powered with 12V until the key is turned, then you need to give the rocker 12V constant B+ and then you have bypassed the key.

You're welcome.

[Ridebutter]

On my axis the ACC toggle is powered regardless of the key position. The only thing i would change is move the red trigger wire on the headunit over to the rocker switch. The ground for the headunit goes to a big ground block that is right behind the dash and is fed by a large gauge wire (#4?) by the battery.

I would then use the grounding block for your EQ. The battery power can come from that toggle, or the battery, or the same + battery feed from the headunit.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Ridebutter

[wedge88]

On my axis the ACC toggle is powered regardless of the key position. The only thing i would change is move the red trigger wire on the headunit over to the rocker switch. The ground for the headunit goes to a big ground block that is right behind the dash and is fed by a large gauge wire (#4?) by the battery.

I would then use the grounding block for your EQ and then tie the blue remote wire (on the EQ) your battery to the toggle switch. The battery power can come from that toggle, or the battery, or the same + battery feed from the headunit.

Ridebutter, thanks for this info as we have the exact boat so I hope/assume it is wired the same as this would simplify this install even more. It now looks like I can get ground from under the helm block, move red wire from key to switch (as I planned) and move blue wire to switch as well for amps but I am unclear as to what you are saying about the B+ power primary wire. Should I take this to battery to be safe or are you saying I can pull that off the ACC toggle as well. Does the toggle have that many posts behind it?

[Ridebutter]

The blue wires for your amps should stay on the headunit. If it's on, they are on. You can pull it to the toggle. The toggle only has one post, but you can use a ring terminal.

[MLA]

Ridebutter, thanks for this info as we have the exact boat so I hope/assume it is wired the same as this would simplify this install even more. It now looks like I can get ground from under the helm block, move red wire from key to switch (as I planned) and move blue wire to switch as well for amps but I am unclear as to what you are saying about the B+ power primary wire. Should I take this to battery to be safe or are you saying I can pull that off the ACC toggle as well. Does the toggle have that many posts behind it?

You've gone to far if you are rearranging the amp turn-on circuit. you need to let the head-unit turn the amps and EQ on by the head-unit's blue/wht wire and NOT by the switch. Last thing you want is to have the head-unit, amp and EQ all coming on at the same time. The only circuit the rocker is going to send 12V to, is the head-units red IGN. The EQ has a red B+ and black GND.

[wedge88]

You've gone to far if you are rearranging the amp turn-on circuit. you need to let the head-unit turn the amps and EQ on by the head-unit's blue/wht wire and NOT by the switch. Last thing you want is to have the head-unit, amp and EQ all coming on at the same time. The only circuit the rocker is going to send 12V to, is the head-units red IGN. The EQ has a red B+ and black GND.

Sorry, started to over think things. I also misunderstood what Ridebutter was saying. Red wire off key will be moved to ACC switch, Remote for EQ and Amps will be off HU. Ground will be off helm grounding block (assuming I have one like Ridebutter) and I will pull B+ for EQ all the way to battery dist block.

Thanks guys and sorry for all the questions.

[wedge88]

@MLA  So I had this system installed for a year now and this season I am getting a ringing sound in both cabin and tower speakers when the boat is running.  When off, no noise at all.  It sounds exactly like the video in the post 

I checked all the RCAs into the amps yesterday and replaced by running straight off WS420SQ to each amp and the noise is still present. (The only time the noise goes away if the engine or blower is running is if I pull the RCA from the HU to the EQ)  I verified all power and ground connections are clean and tight.  The fact that I didn't experience this last season has me scratching my head but I think I have narrowed it down to a ground issue.  The Sony HU's red wire is off an ACC switch but I am not sure where the HU gets its ground as that is not something I messed with.  ACC turns on HU which turns on WS420 and amps.  WS420s power and ground are wired to distro blocks at amps which leads me to believe the issue is the HU's ground.  Do you know if this is wired to the bus bar under the dash and where should it be wired to?  Any help would be appreciated.

I am going to try a higher end shielded RCA from HU to EQ but I'm not holding my breath on that quick of a fix.

[minnmarker]

11 minutes ago, wedge88 said:

  The Sony HU's red wire is off an ACC switch but I am not sure where the HU gets its ground as that is not something I messed with. 

Before you run new RCAs try a temporary ground (black wire) and hot (both red and yellow wires - you can combine them for the test) from the head unit to wherever your amps get their power.  Sounds like the closest spot will be the 420 if that's on the driver side.  Everything including the HU should have the same voltage source.

[wedge88]

43 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

Before you run new RCAs try a temporary ground (black wire) and hot (both red and yellow wires - you can combine them for the test) from the head unit to wherever your amps get their power.  Sounds like the closest spot will be the 420 if that's on the driver side.  Everything including the HU should have the same voltage source.

Are you saying to take the HU's black, red and yellow wires and wire these to my same power feed of my EQ (red and black) that run to distro block? Essentially the HU would then be powered and grounded to the distro block.  If so, this was another idea I thought of after I put the boat away.  I spent so much time on my head in the cubby yesterday, it was hard to think straight.  

[minnmarker]

57 minutes ago, wedge88 said:

Are you saying to take the HU's black, red and yellow wires and wire these to my same power feed of my EQ (red and black) that run to distro block? Essentially the HU would then be powered and grounded to the distro block.

Yes, exactly. If your problem is different voltage to the HU than to the 420 and amps this will cure it.  You'll then need to decide how to switch the HU on and off (red wire) because you'll have to take it off the key switch.

[wedge88]

30 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

Yes, exactly. If your problem is different voltage to the HU than to the 420 and amps this will cure it.  You'll then need to decide how to switch the HU on and off (red wire) because you'll have to take it off the key switch.

My red wire is already going to an ACC switch.  I pulled it off the key when I installed the WS420. With that said, I could really put HU Yellow (+) and Black (ground) to same power wires as WS420SQ and keep the red on the switch to turn on HU?  

[minnmarker]

Right now, that ACC switch is getting power from the buss under the dash - which is the root of your problem.  Better to take the + feeding that ACC switch off, cap it, then feed the switch from the same wire that's feeding the WS420.  You can then leave the red wire to the HU where it is.  Splice the yellow to the wire feeding the 420 and move the black to the black wire on the 420. You should be able to leave all the remote-on wires as they are.  I did not move the switch ground (for the switch light) and have had no problems, but if you really want everything going back to the same + and ground you should swap that out too.

[MLA]

We almost NEVER see noise induced into the audio signal path vie the head units red turn-on trigger. make a simple jumper and connect the red to the head units yellow and test for noise. 

[wedge88]

19 hours ago, minnmarker said:

Right now, that ACC switch is getting power from the buss under the dash - which is the root of your problem.  Better to take the + feeding that ACC switch off, cap it, then feed the switch from the same wire that's feeding the WS420.  You can then leave the red wire to the HU where it is.  Splice the yellow to the wire feeding the 420 and move the black to the black wire on the 420. You should be able to leave all the remote-on wires as they are.  I did not move the switch ground (for the switch light) and have had no problems, but if you really want everything going back to the same + and ground you should swap that out too.

 

16 hours ago, MLA said:

We almost NEVER see noise induced into the audio signal path vie the head units red turn-on trigger. make a simple jumper and connect the red to the head units yellow and test for noise. 

Thank you guys.  I am heading out of town for work but have a week vacation coming up so I will try these things when we have some down time at the dock.  It is appreciated more than you know.