'15 23LSV System Upgrade

[Brian Young]

So I'm about to pull the trigger on upgrading my factory sound. I will likely have many questions, so I will keep everything here. I'll be sure to post plenty of pictures to keep everyone entertained.

I have the factory base sound system with 4 RF 6.5", 4 RF 8" powered by a RF Punch400x4.

This is what I'm thinking of adding.

1 pair WS Rev 10

JL 12w6V3 in a ported box.

WS420SQ

First question, which amps? I have two options. I would appreciate some input on what my best option would be.

Option 1 - Arc

KS300.4 bridged for the Rev10, 350 watts per channel

KS1200.1 on the JL 12w6, 1200 watts @ 2ohms

KS300.4 for the in boats, 175 watts @ 2ohms split between two speakers per channel (Should I bother upgrading from the RF Punch400x4?)

Option 2 - Exile

Javelin 5ch for the in boats and sub, 150 watts split between 2 speakers per channel, 800 watts to the sub

30.2 for the Rev10, 300 watts per speaker

[Fman]

I am running your system 2 Exile in my VLX. I have two XM30.2 for two pair of XM9's wired at 4 ohms, they sound very good in the garage and driveway test. I have yet to try them 70' behind the boat yet. The Javelin is pushing my 12" sub and sounds very good, I have yet to try all 8 cabin speakers, I only have four 6.5" right now and they sound good. So far no regrets with Exile, there components seem solid and customer service has been very good. btw, I had a single pair REV 10's on my last boat with Arc Audio amps, also a nice setup.

[Murphy8166]

Brian,

Have you considered a WS woofer? The JL woofer is great but being a dual 4 ohm woofer really limits the amps available and most times dictates that you use a seperate amp to power it.

Realistically - you could run a pair of Rev10's and a XS-12 on one SD-6 and have more than enough power for all three speakers. Those towers would be insane!!!!!!!

Down the road if you want to upgrade the inboats or amp them you add and SD-2 and power the towers with that and throw the in boats and sub on the SD-6.

I love JL Audio stuff - but that sub creates a few challenges in the boat with it's dual 4 ohm configuration.

[David]

About the 12W6 impedance....

I'm not sure what the specific concern is.

If you parallel the two 4-ohm VCs into a 2-ohm load then that is ideal for nearly all monoblock amplifiers. A 2-ohm load would only be awkward if you are using two bridged channels to drive the sub.

Powering the Wetsounds Rev10 tower speakers....

I think 300 watts per each is fine if running two pair. But if running a single pair of Rev10s then I would want to power them at their full potential. And it is common to run 400 watts to each. Keep in mind that this is a big 10-inch. You don't want to be in a position where you are wanting more power later.

Although not solicited, I'll give you one more amplifier option.

A single JL Audio HD750/1 to the tower.

A single JL Audio HD750/1 to the sub (the most ideal match you could have with a 12W6).

A single JL Audio HD600/4 to the in-boats.

Not as budget friendly but some real powerful performance advantages.

The biggest advantage is that these amplifiers are strictly regulated and will not lose any power at a lower supply voltage level or at an alternate load impedance. Understand that you will never deliver 14.4 volts to your amplifiers which is where most amplifiers are rated.

These amplifiers will maintain their full rated power across the ENTIRE audio bandwidth and not just at the 1 kHz rating.

The HD600/4 has twin power supplies. You won't find that in any other 4-channel. It's just like having two discrete 2-channel amplifiers in a single chassis.

All the same size with a cast heat sink that is also used in 1200 watt applications.

All the connections down one side of the amplifier. So easy to layout a clean amp panel and make your tuning adjustments.

[Brian Young]

Thanks for the feed back guys. I'm leaning heavily toward the Arc option at the moment. Im going for a sound quality, over just being loud.

The Sub, I'm only basing my choice on what I've read online, and conversations. The W6 seems to be a great mix of output and SQ. The power needs was a bit limiting, and that is how I arrived at my choices above.

Rev 10, is 350 watts from the Arc 300.4 not enough? I want them to sound good in and near the boat, and do not care too much about throwing the sound 80' back. Will likely have the tweeter turned down on the eq most of the time.

[shawndoggy]

You don't really need to eq the revs. They aren't really that "hot" ... definitely not like the pro80s, bullet hollowpoints, or Exile XM7s/XM9s. They sound very good "flat". That said, if you aren't really looking for "end of the rope" performance, I'd pick the JL tower speakers for SQ every day.

A ks600.4 on the tower will be plenty for in and around the boat. And vs the JL 750/1 you are only giving up 25w per can while underway (which you'd never hear in a million years). David is right that the JL amp will put out more at rest, but rocking your tower speakers at 95% while you are floating with the boat off is for tools anyway. the KS 300.4 will still get plenty loud for floating.

With a really powerful amp like the ks1200.1, why not go for a sub with more power handling, like a W7 or Image Dynamics IDMAX?

[Brian Young]

I've thought about the JL cans, but the new 880's are not out yet. Haven't seen any ETA either. I've heard the Rev10's, coming from Pro60's, they will be a huge improvement.

As for the sub, I did briefly look at the Image Dynamics, but was worried about the enclosure size needs. Is it that much better than the W6?

[shawndoggy]

I've thought about the JL cans, but the new 880's are not out yet. Haven't seen any ETA either. I've heard the Rev10's, coming from Pro60's, they will be a huge improvement.

As for the sub, I did briefly look at the Image Dynamics, but was worried about the enclosure size needs. Is it that much better than the W6?

better? probably not. The W6 is NICE. I'm just saying you've basically got way too much power for the W6 with the 1200.1.

[Brian Young]

I've seen several boats on here pushing 1000+ watts at the W6, and that the 600 RMS is too conservative. That being said, I really don't know how true any of that is. Do you think it's a bad idea to pair the W6 w/ the 1200.1?

[shawndoggy]

I've seen several boats on here pushing 1000+ watts at the W6, and that the 600 RMS is too conservative. That being said, I really don't know how true any of that is. Do you think it's a bad idea to pair the W6 w/ the 1200.1?

I will plead ignorance, personally. I have never run the 12w6. I've read others say 750 is the sweet spot.

[David]

Yes, the HD750/1 is no doubt the sweet spot for the 12W6. And I really do believe that the W6 is out in front from a technology standpoint.

The 12W6 600 watt rating is a bit conservative but it does match JL's conservative amplifier power ratings which have often exceeded spec by 35%.

600 watts is great for a 12W6 in a car or perfect for a 10W6 in a boat, but lite IMO for a 12W6 in an open boat.

The regulated HD750/1 will be roughly equivalent to an unregulated JL Audio XD1000/1 for example. Another 1200 watt amplifier may fit that same power bracket.

Personally I wouldn't hesitate to use a 1200 watt amplifier based on the way I listen to audio gear. I have an appetite for endlessly dynamic power that always stays super clean. So I would never put the sub at risk and would never toast the woofer. I wouldn't trust everyone to exceed the thermal specs in the same way. It depends on the individual. Tuning has something to do with it also as many have a way of dialing in the system that places an inordinate strain on their components. You just have to reconcile that with what kind of user you really are.

[Brian Young]

Kicking some ideas around. Anyone have any experience with the RE SXXv2-12?

Looking for something comparable to the W6, but can go 4ohms, and does not require a huge box. Would like to keep the kick panel in somewhat the same spot.

[nyryan2001]

David, does the JL hd900/5 also have twin power supplies?

[David]

nyryan,

Yes, it does. But the two power supplies are configured highpass and lowpass sections rather than front and rear. So unlike the HD600/4, with the HD900/5 you want to keep the front and rear channel impedance load equal. It's the nature of a strictly regulated amplifier.

[David]

Brian,

Why are you wanting a 4-ohm woofer with a monoblock amplifier. Are you intentionally trying to reduce the amplifier power?

The newest 12W6 only requires a sealed net enclosure of 1.0 cu.ft. And that's very small for a 12. Those same parameters will also determine how small a ported enclosure version will be, which will also be very small. However, you will not be able to avoid how much length and displacement will be required for the port as the port will determine how low the enclosure is tuned and how efficiently the enclosure operates. Many of these issues are pliable with any given woofer and enclosure. But there will always be an optimum way to go with the enclosure. For example, you could tune a smaller enclosure just as deep but in the process you have diminished some of the benefits of a ported enclosure over a sealed enclosure.

Can you get a 12-inch to work in a smaller enclosure? Absolutely. How is that accomplished? With a woofer that has more moving mass and lower sensitivity (output). You cannot escape a trade-off. It's like trading a larger 12-inch sub for a smaller 10-inch sub with more excursion. You don't come out ahead in that exchange.

[Brian Young]

David,

Thanks again for the in depth feedback. I'm looking for a 4ohm woofer b/c I'm likely going a different direction with the amps, which is only stable down to 4ohms at 1250 watts.

[nyryan2001]

David - what's the consequence of front and rear channel impedance isn't equal?

[David]

nyryan,

Well it is not a matter of DO NOT DO THIS, rather it's just a consideration that I feel should be known.

One aspect of a strictly regulated amplifier is that it keeps all the components operating within their optimum range. It's more stable. It's more robust. If the supply voltage drops it corrects for this and maintains the same power. If the speaker impedance is lower or higher it also impacts the power supply so that you get a consistent power level across all impedance loads.

There's no consequence with the HD600/4 because the front and rear channels are completely independent including the power supplies.

The HD900/5 is a bit different and if possible should be used with symmetrical front and rear satellites, from an impedance standpoint. In this case, the front and rear channels share the same power supply. There isn't real estate for triple power supplies and in most applications it would be a wasteful increase in cost. If the impedance is lower or higher on two channels then the power supply adjusts the voltage to compensate. But it also impacts the other two channels that may have a different impedance load. So you could lose potential power on one side if the F & R speakers loads are different. The power supply voltage will be dictated by the lowest impedance. With the HD900/5 I would try and avoid this scenario. You would almost never see this issue come up in a car but six satellites on four channels is fairly common on a boat.

[MLA]

David,

Thanks again for the in depth feedback. I'm looking for a 4ohm woofer b/c I'm likely going a different direction with the amps, which is only stable down to 4ohms at 1250 watts.

If you will be bridging a full-range 2 chnl amp, just note it may not have an adjustable sub sonic filter. This will impact the enclosure tuning, especially when using a ported enclosure.

[Brian Young]

If you will be bridging a full-range 2 chnl amp, just note it may not have an adjustable sub sonic filter. This will impact the enclosure tuning, especially when using a ported enclosure.

Amp in question is a Wetsounds SD2.

[Brian Young]

Option 1 - Arc

KS300.4 bridged for the Rev10, 350 watts per channel

KS1200.1 on the JL 12w6, 1200 watts @ 2ohms

KS300.4 for the in boats, 175 watts @ 2ohms split between two speakers per channel (Should I bother upgrading from the RF Punch400x4?)

Option 2 - Exile

Javelin 5ch for the in boats and sub, 150 watts split between 2 speakers per channel, 800 watts to the sub

30.2 for the Rev10, 300 watts per speaker

And the winner is Option #3!

Interior - Wetsounds SD6

Rev10 - Wetsounds SD2

Sub (yet to be determined) - Wetsounds SD2

So I have 1250w@4 ohms to pump to a sub. I'm looking for a sub with good balance of SQ and volume, that will fit in a box without moving the carpeted panel too much. Still leaning toward the RE SXXv2-12D2. Other suggestions are welcome.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Brian Young

[shawndoggy]

sd2 has no subsonic filter as mla notes.

[Brian Young]

sd2 has no subsonic filter as mla notes.

I'm by no means an audio expert. So what does this mean as far as tuning, as MLA stated? I see plenty of SD2's on nice builds online.

[David]

A bass-reflex or ported enclosure definitely extends the deep bass, however, when the deep bass roll-off does occur it is twice as steep. That essentially leaves the woofer unprotected below that point. The port has no resistance below the tuning frequency and the woofer is acoustically shorted in a sense. You get lots of wasted movement and the woofer is more prone to mechanical damage. Tuning the enclosure frequency higher only exposes the woofer to more risk in this case.

So a subsonic filter removes any deep bass content below the effective bandwidth. You will not hear any loss of bass in that super low region when filtered. But you conserve amplifier power, conserve woofer excursion, protect the woofer, and clean up the bass.

[David]

And it also removes any turntable rumble.