New Starter Will Not Engage Flywheel

[Ndawg12]

I posted earlier about my starter spinning but not engaging the fly wheel and turning over the motor. So rather than monkey around with a rebuild I just bought a new starter from skidim.

So I'm taking the old starter out and the port side bolt just falls out, snapped right at where the threads start. Then I remove the starboard side (closest to engine block) and it's slightly bent and cracked in the same spot right where the threads start.

So I can put 1 bolt in and the threads of the broken bolt are sticking down about 1/8" so I make sure the other hole is lined up over those exposed threads. Snug up the 1 bolt and try to shake it and it feels really secure. Hook up the wires, turn on the battery, turn the key, and same thing.

So did I get another bad starter? The teeth on the flywheel appear to all be there and in good shape. Do I need to get That broken bolt out and get the new one in? I wouldn't think it would make that much of a difference in alignment?

Any other suggestions? Though this would be so simple.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Ndawg12

[GreenMan]

Dawg, can think of a couple of things...

Fairly unlikley, though not impossible, that a brand new starter is faulty. Clearly, you can hear it spinning so that bit works. How can you prove that the pinion is throwing out along the bendix? Would have to remove it from the engine and run it somehow.

I guess the one bolt still provides reasonable security? From memory, the starter motor spigots onto the bell housing and so is well located radially and the single bolt only has to stop the starter motor from backing out of the housing or from rotating. As long as the starter is seated into the bell housing, alignment should default to the correct position.

Nevertheless, did the new starter sound like it attempted to actually crank the engine at all? Was there an initial engagement and then nothing? If so, maybe the single mounting bolt has already bent? Maybe drop that bolt out again and check it? Seems unlikely to me though.

Since you have observed that the teeth on the ring gear appear in good condition, has the flex plate broken or bent and preventing the ring gear from aligning with the starter pinion gear? Has the ring gear become detached from the flex plate? Is there actually a spot on the ring gear where a few teeth are in bad shape? All I can think of as a means of checking is removing the starter and observing the ring gear while the engine is rolled over using a bar on the crank pulley bolt or something after removing the spark plugs. Is the ring gear wobbling radially and/or axially as the engine is rolled over?

btw, did you try to remove the broken bolt remains? I would imagine that if you could get a moderate grip on it with something it ought to be fairly easy to remove. I would expect it to be only finger tight anyway unless the reason it broke is that it is too long and has bottomed out in the hole?

I recognise that none of this is made any easier being a v drive. Accessibility on mine is excellent...!

I'm sure some experienced mechanics will have some help, too.

[Asmodeus2112]

Did anything happen after the last time it started? I'm very suspect of the broken and bent bolts. Your boat isn't that old, so I would think the bolts were not rusted and weak, therefore something must have torqued the starter somehow.

You could have another bad starter, like mentioned above. It's pretty easy to bench test it. Google bench testing a starter, tons of how to's. Basically you connect a battery to the starter and then use a small jumper wire to power the solenoid that makes the larger switch connection and then see what happens. If the starter spins and the pinion gear comes out then there must be something wrong elsewhere. Those bolts are pretty beefy, breaking and bending them is not good. Maybe something got in between the flywheel and pinion? Did you have a lot of water in the bilge that could have floated debris up in the bell housing?

Edited July 16, 2014 by Asmodeus2112

[Bozboat]

Can you test the starter by connecting the wires but not install it and hit the key?

If the bendix is working, the alignment must be off.

I would remove the broken bolt and use two new bolts and see. It is odd that both bolts are damaged. Maybe they were loose and the starter torqued over?

Maybe test your old starter with 12v, it the bendix works on it, seems like an alignment problem.

[Ndawg12]

Dawg, can think of a couple of things...

Fairly unlikley, though not impossible, that a brand new starter is faulty. Clearly, you can hear it spinning so that bit works. How can you prove that the pinion is throwing out along the bendix? Would have to remove it from the engine and run it somehow.

I guess the one bolt still provides reasonable security? From memory, the starter motor spigots onto the bell housing and so is well located radially and the single bolt only has to stop the starter motor from backing out of the housing or from rotating. As long as the starter is seated into the bell housing, alignment should default to the correct position.

Nevertheless, did the new starter sound like it attempted to actually crank the engine at all? Was there an initial engagement and then nothing? If so, maybe the single mounting bolt has already bent? Maybe drop that bolt out again and check it? Seems unlikely to me though.

Since you have observed that the teeth on the ring gear appear in good condition, has the flex plate broken or bent and preventing the ring gear from aligning with the starter pinion gear? Has the ring gear become detached from the flex plate? Is there actually a spot on the ring gear where a few teeth are in bad shape? All I can think of as a means of checking is removing the starter and observing the ring gear while the engine is rolled over using a bar on the crank pulley bolt or something after removing the spark plugs. Is the ring gear wobbling radially and/or axially as the engine is rolled over?

btw, did you try to remove the broken bolt remains? I would imagine that if you could get a moderate grip on it with something it ought to be fairly easy to remove. I would expect it to be only finger tight anyway unless the reason it broke is that it is too long and has bottomed out in the hole?

I recognise that none of this is made any easier being a v drive. Accessibility on mine is excellent...!

I'm sure some experienced mechanics will have some help, too.

I started it up and drove for 15 minutes, shut it down for about 5 minutes, then it acted up. When I went to start it up I heard a grinding noise so I stopped, tried it again and it made a grinding noise for a split second then it sounded like it was spinning freely, like it's doing now.

Interesting you mention the flex/damper plate. I had noticed the last several times out a harmonic ringing at times and thinking it could be a sign that it's letting go...

When I get the boat back home I'll pull a plug and rotate the engine and look for that gear moving out of round. Lots of good info, thanks!

Edited July 16, 2014 by Ndawg12

[Ndawg12]

Can you test the starter by connecting the wires but not install it and hit the key?If the bendix is working, the alignment must be off.I would remove the broken bolt and use two new bolts and see. It is odd that both bolts are damaged. Maybe they were loose and the starter torqued over?Maybe test your old starter with 12v, it the bendix works on it, seems like an alignment problem.

I would bet that some jerk over torqued that bolt and snapped it and just left it in there for looks. And over time the starter vibrated on every startup which bent the good bolt. It appears I was only a few starts away from the starter falling into the bilge.

I'll try to rig up something to test my old starter, probably be for sale soon as it's probably fine.

[skyskier]

Having been there, I'm going with bad damper plate. The bright side is you caught it before it exploded and did more damage.

[tvano]

imho you need to begin w proper install of the new starter although bench testing multiple times is worth the time also.

both bolts need to be installed and true.

Edited July 16, 2014 by tvano

[Baddog]

NDawg, You are smart. You know they don't put two bolts there to mount the starter secretly knowing you only need one. Get that broken bolt out of there.

Based on your story of trying to start, then grinding sound, then not starting, I conjecture that you maybe have boogered up a couple of teeth on the flywheel. Not broken but boogered enough that the pinion gear can't engage. Bummer luck, but I know you will get it fixed and promptly . . . . because as we all know, "Winter is coming".

[Ndawg12]

NDawg, You are smart. You know they don't put two bolts there to mount the starter secretly knowing you only need one. Get that broken bolt out of there.

Based on your story of trying to start, then grinding sound, then not starting, I conjecture that you maybe have boogered up a couple of teeth on the flywheel. Not broken but boogered enough that the pinion gear can't engage. Bummer luck, but I know you will get it fixed and promptly . . . . because as we all know, "Winter is coming".

The speed at which this gets fixed depends on how much help I can get from my friends. That's the most frustrating part of this, my bulging disc and sciatic pain won't allow me to pretzel down in there. And if it is a damper plate then that's a little more advanced me or my buddies are able to take on. Edited July 16, 2014 by Ndawg12

[Bozboat]

NDawg, You are smart. You know they don't put two bolts there to mount the starter secretly knowing you only need one. Get that broken bolt out of there.

Based on your story of trying to start, then grinding sound, then not starting, I conjecture that you maybe have boogered up a couple of teeth on the flywheel. Not broken but boogered enough that the pinion gear can't engage. Bummer luck, but I know you will get it fixed and promptly . . . . because as we all know, "Winter is coming".

Do you really need all of your teeth?

Old Dawgs probably remember the chevy pick ups of the late 60s, very common, at least among my crowd, to have to work around a few chipped teeth to get the starter to "catch"

[Ndawg12]

Tested old starter after watching this video and it is just fine. So signs are pointing to an alignment issue....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWG6Il_ZJI

[SmoothWaterMan]

Flywheel ring gear is likely toast.

[tvano]

if the starter does not engage you should be able to pull the starter and inspect the ring gear for missing / worn teeth.

[5inthesun]

It sounds like the starter is not aligned properly to the flywheel. You need to check the clearance.

You can buy shims etc... for starters. That's what we used to do on car's and I am sure it's the same here. I know it's not a boat but here is a good clearance checking web source:

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/starter-gear-flexplate-clearance-142265.html

[malibu2004]

Get the bolt out and put the old starter back in. Getting that bolt is going to be a ton of fun. Spend the money and get a good easy out and spray the crap out of it with brake free or something like it. Let is sit for awhile before you try and get it out.

The cool thing about this is your going to invent new naughty words when your working on it.

[Ndawg12]

if the starter does not engage you should be able to pull the starter and inspect the ring gear for missing / worn teeth.

I did that and the section of the ring gear that I could see/feel was not missing any teeth and they felt in good shape, I haven't been able to rotate the engine yet to check the whole gear and if it's spinning true.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Ndawg12

[skyskier]

While you are at it, see if you can move the flywheel back and forth. I suspect it is loose and that is causing the alignment problem. My damper plate blew about 1 hour after replacing the "bad" starter.

[jcon44]

well it looks like we got something to work on this weekend.. I'll bring the beer and capable spine and you can bark out the orders..

[Ndawg12]

well it looks like we got something to work on this weekend.. I'll bring the beer and capable spine and you can bark out the orders..

Dam, can't pass up that deal,Thanks Joe, might take you up on that.

[justgary]

Do you really need all of your teeth?

Man, I really want to start with the jokes here.

[Ndawg12]

I didn't remove the starter myself so not sure if one was there but what are the chances I need a shim?

[Ndawg12]

So I got the new starter back off and inspected the fly wheel. All the teeth look to be in great shape and it spins true. I'm now hoping that getting that broken bolt out will align the starter properly. So my question is does anyone have any tricks for getting this bolt out? It is sticking down about 1/8" so getting a pipe wrench on it is not possible. We cut a groove in it with a dremmel but cant seem to get enough torque on it with a flat blade screw driver. It's only about 6" off the bottom of the bilge so drilling and an easy out are gonna be tough and I'd be working blind. The angles and clearance suck to try and tap it around with a hammer and awl/screw driver. Any other suggestions, I really don't want to have to pull the motor for this

[justgary]

Can you get the Dremel in there to cut a flat on each side so you can get a small Vise-Grip on it? If you can get a good lock, maybe heat will help.

[tvano]

pb blaster? +1on the heat.

as much engine block casting as there is at that starter mount i would not be afraid to sacrifice some of that metal.

might it help if you were to continue that groove so it is more robust (also cutting into the block a bit) then put some leverage on that screwdriver?