NSS Type Wakesurf Design

[Tao of Wake]

This is just a teaser topic and a placeholder for future pics, vids and info regarding my NSS type wakesurf design. I tested a prototype (cutting boards, of course!) this past weekend, and here is what I found (sorry, no pics or vids of this testing):

I cut three cutting boards about 10" x 11" and then traced the outside edge of my hull ('07 VLX) to the bottom, and cut the boards to match so that they would not extend at all past the hull. I drilled 5 holes into one of the boards and put a bolt and nut in each. I then attached this board to the hull using lag bolts. The second board got cut with large channels in it matching up to the bolts protruding from the first board. The last board got holes drilled in the exact same place as the first. I then sandwiched them together with hand-twist nuts. While out on the water, I can loosen these and move the second board out/in to test different configurations. What I found was that extending this out 1.5" to the side and 1" down (below the hull) was the best. I had the following setup on the boat:

Bow: ~250# water ballast + 1 kid ~150#

Center: 500# stock tank full

Rear: Both 250# stock tanks full + ~500# in each fat sac (in v-drive compartments)

Seats: 3 adults + 3 kids totaling about 1000#

Wedge: All the way down

I didn't notice any appreciable impact on steering. NONE!

The bow remained much lower than when we list the boat.

The wake was much longer and had plenty of push. It had the same height as when we list, but it wasn't as steep. It was much easier and fun to ride!

I am now in the process of creating an automated system with nicer boards (black HDPE) and actuators. I have the port side (for goofy surfers; me!) almost done, but it is raining today. I am hoping it will stop this afternoon, and I can get some testing done. I will make sure to get some pics and vids of this testing and post up.

In summary, I REALLY like this design. It is out of the way, doesn't seem to impact steering and creates a great surf wave. I did find that we had to move people to the surf side to list the boat some, but if that and retracting/extending gates is all we have to do to switch sides, that is fantastic!

Now I just need a name for this. Carl's Surf System just seems too generic and boring. Pipeline Surf System or Tao of Wakesurf might be a little better, but I am always open to suggestions!

-Carl

[Malibuzer]

Following this one! Make sure and document everything with pictures.

[nevertwobig]

Need some wake pictures before and after! Thanks!

Edited July 8, 2013 by nevertwobig

[Chia]

interesting, how big were the lags into the hull, and how many?

thanks

[Tao of Wake]

interesting, how big were the lags into the hull, and how many?

thanks

I used six (6) 5/16" x 1" lags to go through the 1/4" cutting board and into the hull (prototype).

[Clutch-n-Throttle]

Also following. Your surf system doesn't exist unless you post pictures.

From what I've been reading, you might be able to incorporate martinarcher's controller for this type of surf system.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Clutch-n-Throttle

[Tao of Wake]

Also following. Your surf system doesn't exist unless you post pictures.

From what I've been reading, you might be able to incorporate martinarcher's controller for this type of surf system.

I know! I have just been hard at work creating this, I didn't take the time to take some pics. And now it's raining. I will definitely get some soon.

I'm not sure if I will use an automated control system or not. According to Nautique, you can fine tune the wave by adjusting the plate. If I notice the same thing, I will not use an automated system so that I can make minor adjustments based on crew size, rider skill, etc. Being that this system doesn't seem to affect steering, I don't see it as a big deal to just have it deployed the entire time we are surfing. It will be critical to remember to retract the gate before going over 15 mph, though. I did forgot to retract my prototype once, and when we got to 20 mph, the boat starting listing severely (gate portion below the hull was pushing that side up), so I know the gate and hull can take the stress, and we would know right away that it wasn't retracted and kill the throttle. I wouldn't want to do this every time, but it is good to know I could do it once and not ruin anything (fingers crossed). Maybe I could still use an automated system and have the ability to adjust. I'll have to discuss this with martinarcher.

[nyryan2001]

Tao-

You are exactly right... a 60/40 - 70/30ish lean to the surf side seems to work best.

I would estimate you need about 1/2 of the countersteer effort required of surfgate, because as much of the NSS drags straight underneath the boat vs on the sides. No weight limiting spray issues.

I will also tell you not a lot of length is required to achieve great results, nothing even close to the size of SG...80% of the time I have my NSS set to 3 or less... so 1-4" maybe?. The more weight you are running, the less NSS you need. only when I run OEM ballast, or No ballast... do I crank my NSS gates out to 4 or 5. too much NSS with the heavier weights it washes out the wave.

[Tao of Wake]

Tao-

You are exactly right... a 60/40 - 70/30ish lean to the surf side seems to work best.

I would estimate you need about 1/2 of the countersteer effort required of surfgate, because as much of the NSS drags straight underneath the boat vs on the sides. No weight limiting spray issues.

I will also tell you not a lot of length is required to achieve great results, nothing even close to the size of SG...80% of the time I have my NSS set to 3 or less... so 1-4" maybe?. The more weight you are running, the less NSS you need. only when I run OEM ballast, or No ballast... do I crank my NSS gates out to 4 or 5. too much NSS with the heavier weights it washes out the wave.

Thanks for the input! I look forward to testing this out for myself.

[martinarcher]

Cool deal. Glad to see one of these in the works. As far as the automated system, mine allows you to configure the system with a microSD card. That means you can mess around with how long your actuators need to run to deploy as well as retract and then you can adjust the time (milliseconds) it takes to deploy to the spot where you get the best wake. I did this for a couple reasons, several have stated that their gates work best when not fully deployed, and second, I wanted this control to be useful for more than just gates. I don't know what the future holds, but my controller will hopefully handle anything that needs deployed at a certain speed range. The lower and upper speed limits are also adjustable on the microSD to keep that gate out of the water over your set high speed limit (sounds like 14 or 15 would be fine on yours).

[Tao of Wake]

As far as the automated system, mine allows you to configure the system with a microSD card. That means you can mess around with how long your actuators need to run to deploy as well as retract and then you can adjust the time (milliseconds) it takes to deploy to the spot where you get the best wake.

My concern is that to get the "best wake" may require minor adjustments to the extension of the gate; something I can do now manually with the Lenco control. Would there be a way to integrate that into your system? That is, your system would extend the gate fully and then I could use the Lenco control to retract it some (while pulling a rider), if needed? I understand that this would need to be done each time the rider is pulled up as your system would retract the gate fully when the boat slowed below the set point. Actually, it would retract too far, but that shouldn't hurt anything as the actuators will just spin.

What would be really cool is if your system could have multiple settings (i.e. 1, 2, 3) that could be set on the SD card. 1 = 3 sec, 2 = 6 sec, 3 = 9 sec. I know this would take additional work, and I don't want to delay finishing the current system. This may be a version 2 that is meant for NSS type designs? There would likely have to be buttons on the box corresponding to these settings that the user would push to activate. Whoa, now that I think it through, it would probably be pretty sophisticated. What if the user pressed preset 3, started pulling the rider, then decided he wanted preset 2 and hit that! The system would need to know that it is currently fully deployed and would need to calculate how many seconds to retract to get to the correct set point. So maybe this will be version 9 coming in 2016!

I will continue to test to see if there really is a need to fine tune the gate position. Maybe there is just one position that is best. I really would like the automation your system provides.

[Tao of Wake]

I was able to get out and test last night after the rain stopped, but I couldn't ride it because my wife wouldn't pull me. She didn't want to miss watching Batchelorette!

Here is a video from last year of the wake while listing the boat:

If I remember correctly, here is how it was setup:

Bow: 450#

Center: Stock 500# full

Rear: Surf side 250# stock + 750# sac

Wedge: All the way down

VAB: 4 guys totaling about 750# all on surf side (including driver)

Fuel tank: ??

Speed: 11.2 mph

Here is a pic of my prototype NSS:

You can see the holes where the screws were and then I had the knobs that could be tightened and loosened by hand. The middle board could be pulled out and then up or down to test different configurations.

Here is the fully automated system on the boat that I tested last night:

I mounted the actuator to the underside of the swim platform where it is reinforced (thicker) just behind the support bracket. There are three "plates" with the middle one that moves in and out by the actuator. The bolts are 5/16" x 2-1/2" going through all three plates and into the hull. There are nylon spacers between the top and bottom plates that are 5/8" so that the 1/2" center plate is free to move. As you can probably see, I didn't have much room to mount the actuator due to it's size and the swim platform bracket. If I ever do need to remove the swim platform, I would have to disconnect the actuator, but that is easily done with the nut/bolt on the one end and the pin on the other.

I am using the Lenco control:

And the Lenco 102 actuators (4.25" stroke):

Here is a pic of the wave (sorry for the poor pic; I was trying to drive the boat and take pics):

Here is a quick shot of the gate, too:

There is some water coming over the top, but it doesn't seem to be interfering with the wave.

Here is the setup for this:

Bow: ~300#

Center: Stock 500# full

Rear: 250# stock + ~600# sac both sides

Wedge: All the way down

VAB: Just me driving (so on surf side)

Fuel tank: 1/4

Speed: 10.8 mph

I can't wait to surf this!

[Malibuzer]

Nice work! I like how clean the install is. How did the boat drive with the plates out?

[Tao of Wake]

Nice work! I like how clean the install is. How did the boat drive with the plates out?

Barely noticable. I did try retracting the gates some to see how the wave looked (was worse) and then when I extended the gate again, I did notice I had to counter steer a little, but not much at all. Certainly not as much as when I had a SG style system on the boat (12" x 18" gate). At slow speeds, steering does not seem to be affected at all.

[nyryan2001]

SWEET! That wave shape is almost identical to mine....Add more weight, cheat more to the surf side--- REPEAT!!

[Tao of Wake]

SWEET! That wave shape is almost identical to mine....Add more weight, cheat more to the surf side--- REPEAT!!

That's exactly what I'm thinking. When I get more people on the boat - and more weight in the fat sacs; I was just anxious to test it so I didn't fill them completely - I think it will be tremendous. Glad to hear it looks similar to your stock NSS!

[nevertwobig]

Very clean wake! Can't wait to hear how well it surfs!

[Bu hoo]

So, did you drill 6 holes into your hull to attach the board??? I just want to get a clear idea of the commitment it takes to test a surf enhancing design.

[Tao of Wake]

So, did you drill 6 holes into your hull to attach the board??? I just want to get a clear idea of the commitment it takes to test a surf enhancing design.

Yes, I did. You could probably figure out some way to do it without drilling holes. I just went for it and committed to the design. If it didn't work, I would have brought out the Water Weld.

[Bu hoo]

Yes, I did. You could probably figure out some way to do it without drilling holes. I just went for it and committed to the design. If it didn't work, I would have brought out the Water Weld.

You are a better man than I am. I would chicken out.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bu hoo

[rugger]

Tao -- Nice job! That looks like a clean install. I didn't know you already had it setup with actuators.

How much trim "lift" does it give with the tab going down and not just to the side (like SG)? That's one point I've brought up on the DIY thread... moving people to one side on an evenly weighted boat still makes the wave better (with my SG). The NSS kinda does that automatically (or does it?)

I love it.

Edited July 9, 2013 by rugger

[shawndoggy]

love it!

[martinarcher]

My concern is that to get the "best wake" may require minor adjustments to the extension of the gate; something I can do now manually with the Lenco control. Would there be a way to integrate that into your system? That is, your system would extend the gate fully and then I could use the Lenco control to retract it some (while pulling a rider), if needed? I understand that this would need to be done each time the rider is pulled up as your system would retract the gate fully when the boat slowed below the set point. Actually, it would retract too far, but that shouldn't hurt anything as the actuators will just spin.

What would be really cool is if your system could have multiple settings (i.e. 1, 2, 3) that could be set on the SD card. 1 = 3 sec, 2 = 6 sec, 3 = 9 sec. I know this would take additional work, and I don't want to delay finishing the current system. This may be a version 2 that is meant for NSS type designs? There would likely have to be buttons on the box corresponding to these settings that the user would push to activate. Whoa, now that I think it through, it would probably be pretty sophisticated. What if the user pressed preset 3, started pulling the rider, then decided he wanted preset 2 and hit that! The system would need to know that it is currently fully deployed and would need to calculate how many seconds to retract to get to the correct set point. So maybe this will be version 9 coming in 2016!

I will continue to test to see if there really is a need to fine tune the gate position. Maybe there is just one position that is best. I really would like the automation your system provides.

Looks fantastic Tao. I dig it. I certainly don't think the Nautique set-up uses 102's so I bet you have a lot more throw/adjustibility than that system. I like the way you did it. Agree with others.....it takes balls to commit to it, but I was like you - I just have to give it a go! I'm glad you pulled it off and it works well!

I hear you on version 9. I've had more scope creep on this project than I previously knew was possible. It's now in the boat, but I'm battling some EMI noise issues. I've had the oscilloscope home from work for the past 7 nights. I think last night I found root cause so I'm optimistically hopeful.

I like your preset ideas. I have one "spare" input I was going to use to toggle screen pages, but I think I can keep everything consolidated to one screen for now. It will complicate the software some, but simple software is no fun to debug. I'll get it out as it work now, and then see if I can't work a software update in that allows the preset feature to be included. I'm sure the more water time you get with it the more you might change the way you want the system to work.

As far as the Lenco system goes, I'll have to do some thinking if that could be used in parallel with my system. Both legs of the actuator are grounded when the system is "idle" so I'll have to look at it electrically and see if there is a way to activate the Lencos with the switches while still attached to my box. As of now that would be bad news, but I might be able to come up with a way to do it.

[martinarcher]

BTW....now you need to show the world what NSS and SG combined can do. We can call your boat "The Tao Tsunami" or Triple T for short.

[shawndoggy]

As far as the Lenco system goes, I'll have to do some thinking if that could be used in parallel with my system. Both legs of the actuator are grounded when the system is "idle" so I'll have to look at it electrically and see if there is a way to activate the Lencos with the switches while still attached to my box. As of now that would be bad news, but I might be able to come up with a way to do it.

MA, what about relays off of your box so that you use an 87a pin for manual control. So when your box powers up and 87 goes active then 87a is cut and manual control is overridden. Make sense?