Direction of boat design/pricing

[-BS-]

When trying to respond to the recent "Rank the Boat Manufacturers" thread I realized that some of my thoughts on the topic were way to broad to cover in that forum....so I started this thread.

Does anyone else find the recent (or maybe not so recent) direction of boat design/pricing a bit baffling & disappointing? Here's what I mean....

It seems like the all the boat manufacturers are increasingly building really expensive, rider specific boats..........and they're selling like crazy..........even though 90% (in my very unscientific estimation) of these boats are not being used as riding machines, but instead, just as a runabouts were used years ago: a bit of wakeboarding, a bit of skiing, a bit of tubing, a bit of family cruising time, etc, etc.

This trend is really disheartening to me for a couple reasons 1) because it feels like the 'Entry Level Wakeboat' is quickly becoming a thing of the past. 2)some of the rider specific features are so extreme that even someone like me (who uses the boat 90% for riding) doesn't even need them and would prefer not to pay for them (or sacrifice boat space for them)......but doesn't really have a choice (or won't soon anyway)

I guess my point is: It seems like the boat manufacturers have turned the 40k Wake Boat (that was still really nice) and the 40k Luxury Cruiser (which you could easily recreate behind) into the 80k Rider Specific Luxury Cruiser.

Any of you more experienced boaters feel this way years ago (and I'm just repeating history)? Or is this a recent trend? .............OR...... like many, many other times in my life: Am I just rambling?

**and understand that I think the 80k Rider Specific Luxury Cruisers are AWESOME boats! I just wonder about the direction of the industry as a whole....and if it's a sustainable business model...

Edited May 29, 2013 by -BS-

[DIE2SURF]

I completely agree. I paid $17K for my '98 Echelon back in 2004. When I see some of the prices for new boats, I'm shocked. Some of these boats cost more than a small house. I have never made a boat payment, and I really want to keep it that way.

My next boat will be an XTI (I think that's what it's called?), and I hope to pay no more than $25K (if I do it at all).

I just can't grasp even $50K for a ski/wakeboard boat... For that, I may as well start looking at Cobalts...

Edited May 29, 2013 by DIE2SURF

[jk13]

Not rambling at all I don't think.

Just the poorer man's perspective:

My family and I have always owned older boats. Just that 20 years ago an "older boat" meant 4-6 years old and now it means 15-20 years old. That's just the limit on what we are willing to pay for that recreational item. Luckily it still puts us in decent equipment that is reliable. A 15-20 year old boat back then would be from the '60s or early '70s and you'd fix it as much as use it. Similar things in the snowmobile industry. Our '70s sleds were "ride an hour, fix an hour" and in the late '90s it became light seasonal maintenance instead.

I'll never own a new boat, especially with the current trends you described. It is nice that as long as I keep my current boat in decent shape it's value is seeming to hold rock steady though. They're still out there for more than double what I paid for mine so that's a plus for guys like me I guess.

[cbmalibu98]

I agree with your statement. Most of the competition boats are used as a family boat "me included" Surfing, tubing, wakeboarding nothing extreme that I would need all of the gadgets that are on the new boats. We made the decision to move to a newer boat this year, but any of the new boats where out of our price range. We found a great 09 LSV that fit our family for much less that the new boats. All of the manufactures are following this marketing model. I guess it works because my local dealer can not get enough 2013 to sell. Even the so called entry level boats Malibu I-Ride or the Axis have a rather large sticker. I am sure it is just a few of us that would like competition boat with out having to have a computer degree to run it. Just my $.02

CB

[Lance B. Johnson]

Agreed. I will forever shop in the used market, and really, I don't see a thing wrong with that.

[dlb]

I ordered my current boat, could not be happier with it eleven years later.

At today's prices, I could not be happier with a 2013 than I am with my current boat.

[Lance B. Johnson]

Another perspective on this is the cost to repair. All these features on the new boats WILL break eventually. Heck I can bet people will be replacing surfgate actuators as soon as next year. I have always wondered how maliveiw will be supported in ten years? Heck the independent shops can't even get support on maliveiw now!

Seriously put higher grade upholstery/ carpet in a new vride and that's my dream boat.

[Steve B.]

Great thread. I'll maybe only own used boats too. The original owner loved her, but just didn't use her anymore. 1000 hours

I think I rescued her. My lake is so small, it takes about 4 minutes to go around. So now, she gets extremely low hours, babied use, two oil changes a year, and all girls except me for the crew.

Started it up for the 1st time this year today. Click...varoom, to a steady idle. Runs like new, really. I think she loves me, likes the music, and likes the way the rest of her days are headed.

I may upgrade someday. That will be a tough one. I couldn't be a more proud owner of a Malibu.

Steve B.

[Nitrousbird]

If it has a title, I'll probably never buy it new. For me, I'm happy that they are adding all these toys. It will depreciate all the same and I'll just get another wakeboat in a few years with more gadgets on it.

Honestly, for the seasonal use, I would have to be a multi-millionaire to even consider buying one of these brand new 100k boats. Otherwise my money is better served elsewhere (be it for the home, savings, investments, retirement, etc.).

[CumminsBu]

Total feel you on this one. I bought mine used and love it bow to stern will never sell it. Just keep improving it. Every year I love to go to the boat shows and see the latest and greatest all the manufactures have to offer. I call it, "Shopping 10 to 15 years in advance!" Not only the ski and wake tow boats, but pontoon, runabouts, aluminum river boats and even sail boats. For some reason I love all boat, maybe that is why I'm in the Coast Guard and don't make a huge income, but love what I do. Someday I plan to add a boat to my collection, the whole boating market is out of control and everything is way over priced. Was at Cabela's the other day and they wanted 15K for a 18ft Aluminum Hewe's Craft without cushioned seats, no helm and a 25HP tiller controlled Mercury OB, on a trailer. You can get a nice classic Response or Echelon for the same price. Look at the Pontoon market, they want 60 to 70K for a deck floating on beer cans with nice couches and cheapo helm. Some get crazy with a blown engine or triple outboards with a deck on beer cans! I don't have to have the best because in reality I will never go Pro, I just want to ski with the best possible and have fun will the family. I also see the other side of the spectrum too. If you have the money and going to spent all day in the boat with all the crazy touch screen electronics and super cushion seats for the wow factor, why not spend 100K or finance it out until you can afford it, you only live once. The crazy thing is people do it. Keep it for a few years then they sell. Have seen it on here, people come and go and the diehards stay. Guess we now what the sport is about. I'm happy with a boat with manual switches, a key to turn, a hole in the swim plat form to lower the wedge and no carpet to stain. Furthermore, half of the wake boats that are on lifts with water front property at the Lake I ski at. Never move and I'm skiing my lake when its glass in the morning or sunset for the best water two to three times a week and they never fight me for it. I may never buy a new Malibu but will be in the market for any Malibu v-drive on the sv23 hull, sv23 diamond hull or any Malibu v-drive with a cracked block because I have the urge to drop a Cummins engine in it. Not to bash Malibu and other makes, but some people, I think, would like a super basic option boat without the fancy stuff. I know I would! Sorry for the rant.

[Afun]

I started the thread " Ranking the boat manufacturers" & " justifying the cost of a new boat for 6 months of use". This is my mindset exactly. Not only are these boats ridiculous in price. Look how big and bulky they are getting. I was told by a dealer in SC that the entire ski boat industry sells 30,000 units worldwide.

Bottom line....the current direction is hurting the industry and watersports. When was the last time you saw a wakeboarding competition on TV like back in the day?

Edited May 30, 2013 by Afun

[nyryan2001]

I can tell you that you guys willing to wait for the prices to drop are going to have some seriously great boats avail in a few years. Out of 30+ wakeboats on my lake, I would estimate 5 get "used hard" and another 5 used on and off. The other 20 use them to party and to look sporty, good thing they always have the token wakeboard up there in the rack to be legit and all. So while there may be some wear and tear on the exterior of the boat... the engines and drive train are relatively in terrific condition. Usually from what I have seen there will be a negative coorelation between the size of the stereo and the hours on a boat. The bigger the stereo in the boat, the less and less it is used for serious watersports.

I will also add that depending on the make and model.... and how "in demand or popular" that model of boat is.... they are holding their values like crazy. I can tell you I used my 247 pretty hard for 2yrs, mostly surfing...and got nearly what I paid for it on trade 2yrs prior. I think the depreciation will finally start to kick in with cosmetic damages, unusually high hours, or finally after 7-10+yrs.

[Levi900RR]

I feel like manufactures are going to continue this route until the demand drops off. Until then (might never happen) the used market is pretty good. I am really happy with the boat I just got for the money I had to pay. I am not saying that if I won the lottery I wouldn't go buy a new one, but I don't think I'd choose one over my current boat considering the price.

[racer808]

I feel like manufactures are going to continue this route until the demand drops off. Until then (might never happen) the used market is pretty good. I am really happy with the boat I just got for the money I had to pay. I am not saying that if I won the lottery I wouldn't go buy a new one, but I don't think I'd choose one over my current boat considering the price.

Thats exactly how we feel. I considered spending more but I dont want to be upset about food, people stepping on seats, dirty carpet, etc. So far for what we are in our VLX between purchase & upgrades I could not be happier & the pyt is hardly noticeable.

[85 Barefoot]

I started the thread " Ranking the boat manufacturers" & " justifying the cost of a new boat for 6 months of use". This is my mindset exactly. Not only are these boats ridiculous in price. Look how big and bulky they are getting. I was told by a dealer in SC that the entire ski boat industry sells 30,000 units worldwide.

Bottom line....the current direction is hurting the industry and watersports. When was the last time you saw a wakeboarding competition on TV like back in the day?

2 things: 1) that dealer is WAY off. The entire ski boat industry is WAY smaller than that.

2) I don't think you can look at the "top" of the market and use that as a barometer for the "direction" of the industry. When Axis was started 4 years ago, it was an answer to what a lot of people were asking for, a core boat that could be had at a value. It still is and is now the fifith best-selling brand with just 2 models. Just because a new xstar and G cost well in excess of 100k doesn't mean that's the "direction" of the industry, its just one component. When correct craft released the SN 200 and it cost 60k, people croaked. Somewhat in response, Centurion re-entered the 3 event market (with a decent effort) and released the cheapest 3 event boat in the carbon pro. So high end release of correct craft arguably spurred a new, cheaper alternative from another manufacturer. So, IMO, price of the highest end boats is really not the only measuring stick for the direction of the industry. All that said, the "direction" of the ski boat industry has zero to do with why we don't have skiing on TV which ended years ago, well prior to the latest skyrocket in price. That's a function of failed leadership by the leaders of skiing and wakeboarding. The price of boats has zero to do with that.

[RTS]

I've said it before, and I still believe it now, there is room in this market for a startup boat manufacturer to get 'back-to-basics' and produce what would be considered a low level inboard ski boat without all the automation, electronic controls, ipod this and bluetooth that, 3000 Watt stereos with black box controls and 20 speakers, etc. that in my mind serve no purpose other than to put things on the boat that can fail (and that I cannot fix myself) and drive the prices to astonomical levels.

Imagine a startup manufacturer getting ahold of the '99-'04 SSLXi molds (or something similiar) and outfitting the boat with an 'off the shelf' fuel injected Indmar 350, adding tried and true speed control (PP, for example), a 'regular' guage cluster, a nice interior and putting it on all a basic Boatmate trailer without all the bling that has worked it way into even the trailers these days.

The major manufacturers today do not seem interested at all in selling a boat without all the bells and whistles, and certainly don't seem interested in selling anything under about $75K.

I realize this type of boat would not interest everyone on this site, but I would bet there would be a huge market for a boat like this for those of us that don't care about setting a 6' high wake/wave behind our boats, but are more interested in something nice, something simple, and something that doesn't have a 6 digit price tag for us to enjoy a day on the lake with our family and friends.

[85 Barefoot]

RTS, there IS that already. See Moomba, Axis, and ride series.

[Levi900RR]

What is the MSRP of a new response? Like the cheapest one you can get...

[85 Barefoot]

ask dale, prolly 40 msrp stripped down.

[Afun]

I've said it before, and I still believe it now, there is room in this market for a startup boat manufacturer to get 'back-to-basics' and produce what would be considered a low level inboard ski boat without all the automation, electronic controls, ipod this and bluetooth that, 3000 Watt stereos with black box controls and 20 speakers, etc. that in my mind serve no purpose other than to put things on the boat that can fail (and that I cannot fix myself) and drive the prices to astonomical levels.

Imagine a startup manufacturer getting ahold of the '99-'04 SSLXi molds (or something similiar) and outfitting the boat with an 'off the shelf' fuel injected Indmar 350, adding tried and true speed control (PP, for example), a 'regular' guage cluster, a nice interior and putting it on all a basic Boatmate trailer without all the bling that has worked it way into even the trailers these days.

The major manufacturers today do not seem interested at all in selling a boat without all the bells and whistles, and certainly don't seem interested in selling anything under about $75K.

I realize this type of boat would not interest everyone on this site, but I would bet there would be a huge market for a boat like this for those of us that don't care about setting a 6' high wake/wave behind our boats, but are more interested in something nice, something simple, and something that doesn't have a 6 digit price tag for us to enjoy a day on the lake with our family and friends.

I studied marketing in college. Fun Degree! The Delorean was the sports car that made a bling car with all the bells and whistles for an affordable price. That car took off in sales immediately. But we all know how that ended. It was a very interesting case study.

[Afun]

2 things: 1) that dealer is WAY off. The entire ski boat industry is WAY smaller than that.

2) I don't think you can look at the "top" of the market and use that as a barometer for the "direction" of the industry. When Axis was started 4 years ago, it was an answer to what a lot of people were asking for, a core boat that could be had at a value. It still is and is now the fifith best-selling brand with just 2 models. Just because a new xstar and G cost well in excess of 100k doesn't mean that's the "direction" of the industry, its just one component. When correct craft released the SN 200 and it cost 60k, people croaked. Somewhat in response, Centurion re-entered the 3 event market (with a decent effort) and released the cheapest 3 event boat in the carbon pro. So high end release of correct craft arguably spurred a new, cheaper alternative from another manufacturer. So, IMO, price of the highest end boats is really not the only measuring stick for the direction of the industry. All that said, the "direction" of the ski boat industry has zero to do with why we don't have skiing on TV which ended years ago, well prior to the latest skyrocket in price. That's a function of failed leadership by the leaders of skiing and wakeboarding. The price of boats has zero to do with that.

Think about it bro. If people could afford a good ski boat, more people would be out wakeboarding. More people, more popular, more money....now we got a reason to put wakeboarding on TV.

This is an Obama Economy, rich vs poor, affordable care act, more welfare....all that and the ski boats are getting close to 100k....wrong direction for sure.

[jk13]

Every once in a while people scream for a price point boat. Every once in a while someone tries to make one. First one I remember is Ski-Riffic way back when, a retro looking DD ski boat for around 10 grand IIRC. Most recent was Standard boats with their Monster towered SN2001-splashed hull. Bayliner had their challenger series, etc. They all last a couple of years and die. Even MC had their SportStar series for a bit.

It has been tried. Axis and Moomba are about as inexpensive as you can go and still be successful because the materials, construction, and drivetrain are of decent quality. Both of those brands have a higher end sister line and some brand recognition with the core group to help support them in the industry.

I don't know if it's that people are brand snobbish or if people in those price points are buying I/Os and jet boats, but just to remind everyone that it has been tried.

[BlastRlxi]

There are a lot of people that buy wakeboats simply for the status that they seem to bring. Even though they may only use them to pull tubes, they get noticed aroung the dock or ramp, as well as on the road while the boat is on the fancy trailer that always seems to come with it. They can blast the sound system through the huge speakers that can be heard for miles so that everyone sees them and they can make sure everyone knows the can afford a $100k+ boat. I'm not saying that this is true for all wakeboat owners (especially the ones on here who seem to have a true love for the brand and sport), but there are plenty of them out there. This has led to the increase in popularity of all inboards which brings the steep price increases as well.

IMO, its worse for the DD skiboat owners. While the prices are certainly lower than those of the wakeboats, $50-60k is a lot for a tournament skiboat. Nobody buys a new tournament inboard who isn't a skier. The layout isn't that family friendly and they don't make the best cruising boats. It's unfortunate that the prices have gone up so much but I don't see that changing much in the future.

[85 Barefoot]

Think about it bro. If people could afford a good ski boat, more people would be out wakeboarding. More people, more popular, more money....now we got a reason to put wakeboarding on TV.

This is an Obama Economy, rich vs poor, affordable care act, more welfare....all that and the ski boats are getting close to 100k....wrong direction for sure.

Let me make sure I understand your logic: we don't see wakeboarding on TV anymore because 15 years ago it was MORE accessible than it is now? Look at your local lakes...how much HIGHER of a proportion of the boats on the waterways are wakeboard/ski boats than 15 years ago? 15 years ago the industry was much smaller than what it is today in terms of numbers. And while this is hardly the board for politics, the skyrocketing pricing AND demand started well before Obama which I would have thought would be interpreted as a sign of economic success, I dunno.

[mrnate450r]

Part of the problem is the fact that you stick the word MARINE on anything and the price nearly doubles! Lets take engines for example. The LSA is what, a $10,000 UPGRADE over the 350 Monsoon? So that makes that engine a $15-20,000 cost? I am positive that the crate automotive version does not cost that. Speakers are another good example. I could go on and on. I don't like it, but do we have a choice?