2k to redo my stereo system. what route would you take?

[NorrisMike]

This is the amp to go with if you can find it in stock, but they are usually sold out. This amp is sold under several different brands with slightly different looks - PPI being the cheapest when you can find it (though PPI overrates the power output). I have the same amp but from Polk, the D4000.4.

I have heard people say they are the same but when you compare both test results they appear to be clearly different. I would say that PPI accurately rated this amp at 477 x 2 @ 4ohm @ 14.4v. Underrated actually if you want to get technical.. and the PPI seems to be slightly more efficient. Both are great amps but your statement above is incorrect if you look at the following results. I would buy whatever I could get cheaper or toss a coin. I got the PPI's simply because at the time they were the only ones I heard about.

http://www.pasmag.com/car-audio/test-reports/1805-test-report-precision-power-p9004-amplifier-

http://www.pasmag.com/car-audio/reports/2049-test-report-polk-audio-pa-d40004-amplifier-

I would like to see the actual measured power of the other Phantom amps in PPI's lineup - 600.2, 1000.1

[CRF-Rider]

I have heard people say they are the same but when you compare both test results they appear to be clearly different. I would say that PPI accurately rated this amp at 477 x 2 @ 4ohm @ 14.4v. Underrated actually if you want to get technical.. and the PPI seems to be slightly more efficient. Both are great amps but your statement above is incorrect if you look at the following results. I would buy whatever I could get cheaper or toss a coin. I got the PPI's simply because at the time they were the only ones I heard about.

http://www.pasmag.com/car-audio/test-reports/1805-test-report-precision-power-p9004-amplifier-

http://www.pasmag.com/car-audio/reports/2049-test-report-polk-audio-pa-d40004-amplifier-

I would like to see the actual measured power of the other Phantom amps in PPI's lineup - 600.2, 1000.1

Good post. I was just about to post the bench test from pasmag as well.

Regarding the deviation in output amongst these amps, I believe the difference is that while they use the same board, the components are different. I don't think one would ever be able to hear the difference, though.

[Earmark Marine]

When comparing these amplifers that share so many similarities keep a couple of things in mind.

While they may share and amortize tooling and a common platform for cost-efficiency, the board components are often very different. So all of these amplifers are not the same piece in a different package.

Tests are done with one channel or two channels bridged at a time so there is a normal amount of deviation from channel to channel and unit to unit of the same model.

David

[CRF-Rider]

At any rate, you can't go wrong with any of them. Here's some discussion comparing the ppi's to JL HD's ($600 more). Simply cannot be beat for price to performance ratio...period

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/system-design-help-me-choose-equipment-my-car/117281-jl-hd-vs-ppi-phantom.html

[Nitrousbird]

When comparing these amplifers that share so many similarities keep a couple of things in mind.

While they may share and amortize tooling and a common platform for cost-efficiency, the board components are often very different. So all of these amplifers are not the same piece in a different package.

Tests are done with one channel or two channels bridged at a time so there is a normal amount of deviation from channel to channel and unit to unit of the same model.

David

Good points...but the bigger point, regardless of which brand you go with on this series of amps, is why buy these other amps (Wetsounds, Exile, JL, etc.) for far more money just to get similar performance?

[NorrisMike]

to play the name game! lol. but seriously, to play the name game.

[Bradley Thornton]

Agree, NAME GAME.

[nyryan2001]

Good points...but the bigger point, regardless of which brand you go with on this series of amps, is why buy these other amps (Wetsounds, Exile, JL, etc.) for far more money just to get similar performance?

technical assistance before, during and after the sale...both on the product and the entire rest of your system...marine audo is ran harder than most, in harsh conditions... well I know mine is. not pristine or ideal, so service and warranty really matter in marine stuff.

And from my perspective... the biggest reason on the brand name items, is 100% hassel free standing behind the product after the sale. Exile is off the charts in this area. I got the ZLD installed, had an issue with it, I sent Brian a quick text asking a few questions, next thing I know within 48hrs I had a replacement. There is real value placed in that type of service, esp with what I got with Exile. Good luck with that on your PPI.

I think you would get that type of support on anything wetsounds, exile, Arc, Fosgate etc.,... likely not on all the knockoff versions. You'd have to apply for an RMA# and play the warranty return game with a 4th party vendor or thru the parent company.

Now with this being said... I have it all on my boat, Wetsounds, Fosgate, Exile, RE.... and the NVX Class D amp for my tower, which would be considered the cheapie knockoff I guess. I know there is no one to text on the NVX, I'd have the play the warranty claim game, and yep it was factored into my price decision when I bought.

So to say its dumb or a waste of money going with anything other than the knockoffs...I cant say I agree.

[Nitrousbird]

technical assistance before, during and after the sale...both on the product and the entire rest of your system...marine audo is ran harder than most, in harsh conditions... well I know mine is. not pristine or ideal, so service and warranty really matter in marine stuff.

And from my perspective... the biggest reason on the brand name items, is 100% hassel free standing behind the product after the sale. Exile is off the charts in this area. I got the ZLD installed, had an issue with it, I sent Brian a quick text asking a few questions, next thing I know within 48hrs I had a replacement. There is real value placed in that type of service, esp with what I got with Exile. Good luck with that on your PPI.

I think you would get that type of support on anything wetsounds, exile, Arc, Fosgate etc.,... likely not on all the knockoff versions. You'd have to apply for an RMA# and play the warranty return game with a 4th party vendor or thru the parent company.

Now with this being said... I have it all on my boat, Wetsounds, Fosgate, Exile, RE.... and the NVX Class D amp for my tower, which would be considered the cheapie knockoff I guess. I know there is no one to text on the NVX, I'd have the play the warranty claim game, and yep it was factored into my price decision when I bought.

So to say its dumb or a waste of money going with anything other than the knockoffs...I cant say I agree.

Except this series of amps isn't a knock-off of anyone. And they are sold under known, name brands as well, such as Polk, Hertz, and Nakamichi. Polk is also sold by same marine audio dealers selling Wetsounds, Exile, etc. Just check out Earmarks website - they carry Polk as well. That kind of kills the support argument doesn't it?

[nyryan2001]

No actucally, not at all. all those you just listed are higher end brand names....about the same price as the marine audio brands. No massive discount with those, and you know those are not the brands I was referring to.

You are changing your argument now introducing all those other higher brands. What I was getting at is the cheapie knockoffs- PPI which you and the others stated if you didnt buy you were after a NAME GAME--- do come at a price discount because there isnt support after the sale. Good luck on direct replacements like I described, what about 3 days before July 4th weekend? you would do without... to be considered when you are doing a purchase.

I gave a specific example of how going with the NAME GAME, i got terrific support after the sale that otherwise would have been weeks...if at all, with a brand like PPI.

I am not advocating either approach, only saying that you get off the charts support with these marine brands and there is real value in that. I even think my NVX I run for my towers is a PPI sister derivative knockoff??

[Earmark Marine]

Except this series of amps isn't a knock-off of anyone. And they are sold under known, name brands as well, such as Polk, Hertz, and Nakamichi. Polk is also sold by same marine audio dealers selling Wetsounds, Exile, etc. Just check out Earmarks website - they carry Polk as well. That kind of kills the support argument doesn't it?

It would be great if you didn't use Earmark is this conversation. I stay neutral relating to specific brands on this site and restrict my contribution to technical and applicational issues. It really works out great that way. I like staying out of these discussions when they go in this direction. Although many 'brands' may be carried in part it doesn't mean that ALL products from that brand are carried and supported. I don't want to be placed in a position where I need to correct misstatements. I appreciate the consideration.

David

[NorrisMike]

You could keep 4 Clarion EQ's in stock for the price of one Exile ZLD and they do the exact same thing. I see no value there. Same goes for the amps. I have $350 TOTAL into 2 PPi amps that were used hard the whole season. That is half the price of 1 harpoon (just an example) and you'd still need another amp! Not to mention the difference in footprint and extra space you'd need. If these amps give me a problem I will be happy to write it up on here. I don't have too much pride. They haven't and I haven't read about anything on the car audio forums. I don't doubt the service is great from the big players in the marine industry.

Long live the PPi's!!!!!! HAHAHAH!

[Nitrousbird]

No actucally, not at all. all those you just listed are higher end brand names....about the same price as the marine audio brands. No massive discount with those, and you know those are not the brands I was referring to.

I will spell it out again...POLK AUDIO, the same BRAND that is sold by many different audio shops. It's MSRP (which can be had for a lot less than MSRP online) is still significantly less than the Exile, Wetsounds, and JL amps while providing similar performance. Since that common, name brand, is likely being sold at your local stereo shop, where is the advantage to these other amps? Your favorite shop going to hook you up with a JL amp that fried on the 4th of July but not the Polk amp they sold that fried? I'm just not seeing it at all.

Example: Polk D4000.4, marine rated amp, puts out 200x4 at 2ohm, 125x4 @ 4ohm, and 400x2 @ 2ohm...exact same power output as a Wetsounds Syn 4. Yet the Polk as an MSRP of $350 and the Wetsounds is $600. What is that extra $250 buying me (and in reality you can find a D4000.4 for $250 all day long where the Syn 4 is full price pretty much all the time - so where is my $350 going?).

[nyryan2001]

Keep exaggerating terms your make point. You quote full MSRP on some but then you quote discounted pricing on the others. I have never paid MSRP for any of my gear, WELL below, and I dont have any special hookups. I suggest you make some calls, ask around and talk to some folks.

If you think you can get the same level of service/warranty on Polk/PPI as you get on Wetsounds or Exile...well I dont know what to say to you. Most local stores dont waranty the items and do trade outs there on the spot at the counter, the manufacturer does, and you often still ship them off. Some are able to do it, but then you arent getting those discounted prices you quoted above. Apples to apples buddy. Those online cheapie prices you quoted CERTAINLY dont come with that level of service. Even the best authorized dealers are still at the mercy of the warranty claim games many times. Good luck with Polk and PPI on that July 1st warranty claim, or yes you just go buy another or keep an extra in your garage with all your savings. I gave a specific example of who DID answer the phone and make things right immediately, i expected great service, but the way it was handled was beyond anything I had experienced. THAT is the point I made.

Yep the marine brands cost more...but they have established themselves as 100% immediate standing behind their products and being overly helpfull with anything asked of them. Again, full disclosure i have gone BOTH routes on my setup. I went NVX for my towers from an online cheapie because a Marine brand Class Ds 400x2 were beyond my budget and no issues so far. But your post earlier implying that folks are ignorant for buying the marine brands is silly as your math.

But it sounds like you got it all figured out with your math at $350 a pop. Quit your job and sell polk D4000s and PPIs... you are set.

[Nitrousbird]

Keep exaggerating terms your make point. You quote full MSRP on some but then you quote discounted pricing on the others. I have never paid MSRP for any of my gear, WELL below, and I dont have any special hookups. I suggest you make some calls, ask around and talk to some folks.

If you think you can get the same level of service/warranty on Polk/PPI as you get on Wetsounds or Exile...well I dont know what to say to you. Most local stores dont waranty the items and do trade outs there on the spot at the counter, the manufacturer does, and you often still ship them off. Some are able to do it, but then you arent getting those discounted prices you quoted above. Apples to apples buddy. Those online cheapie prices you quoted CERTAINLY dont come with that level of service. Even the best authorized dealers are still at the mercy of the warranty claim games many times. Good luck with Polk and PPI on that July 1st warranty claim, or yes you just go buy another or keep an extra in your garage with all your savings. I gave a specific example of who DID answer the phone and make things right immediately, i expected great service, but the way it was handled was beyond anything I had experienced. THAT is the point I made.

Yep the marine brands cost more...but they have established themselves as 100% immediate standing behind their products and being overly helpfull with anything asked of them. Again, full disclosure i have gone BOTH routes on my setup. I went NVX for my towers from an online cheapie because a Marine brand Class Ds 400x2 were beyond my budget and no issues so far. But your post earlier implying that folks are ignorant for buying the marine brands is silly as your math.

But it sounds like you got it all figured out with your math at $350 a pop. Quit your job and sell polk D4000s and PPIs... you are set.

So what you are saying is that if I buy two amps from a dealer, one being a Polk amp and one being a Wetsounds Amp, I will get better service from the dealer for the Wetsounds amp. And that $250 difference (MSRP to MSRP) is what is buying me that better service?

[CRF-Rider]

You are changing your argument now introducing all those other higher brands. What I was getting at is the cheapie knockoffs- PPI which you and the others stated if you didnt buy you were after a NAME GAME--- do come at a price discount because there isnt support after the sale. Good luck on direct replacements like I described, what about 3 days before July 4th weekend?

I agree with you that the dedicated marine brands offer excellent product support, but at what cost? It's also worth noting that excellent customer service is not always the case, and good customer service is not exclusive to marine brands.

There's more to consumers choosing a particular name brand than customer support. The truth is a lot of boat owners are completely clueless about audio. They're lured in by marketing and reviews from others describing how great "name brand" product is. Sadly a lot of customer reviewers of marine audio don't have much of a baseline to make an accurate review. They simply think it's the best because that's all they know. Saying "name brand subwoofer" is the best when it's the only sub they've heard is just as accurate as someone saying a Prius is the fastest car when it's the only car they've ridden in.

If failure and warranty are of such concern why not buy a spare of each and still save money? Redundancy will always defeat even the best return policy. Example; you could buy 2 of these keep one as a spare for $80 less than the qty 1 of product with "marine brand name" on it. Another example, you could buy 2 pairs of these and keep one pair as a spare for $50 less than 1 pair of the same product with "marine brand name" on it. I could go on. This also illustrates that a lot of marine products are, indeed, "knock offs" of another product.

[NorrisMike]

Yep the marine brands cost more...but they have established themselves as 100% immediate standing behind their products and being overly helpfull with anything asked of them.

Not sure if everyone would agree with this or not. However, If I had a product that I was selling with large profit margins built into it, I would be overly kind and helpful to anyone who bought from me too! think about it... I will sell you a box of kleenex for $100 - after that you and I can be best friends. I will even replace your box of kleenex should there ever be an issue with it. Why wouldn't I? I would even next day air that sucker in hopes that you would pass along a good word. Kidding.... Kidding...

Crf-Rider made some good points there.

[[email protected]]

I agree with you that the dedicated marine brands offer excellent product support, but at what cost? It's also worth noting that excellent customer service is not always the case, and good customer service is not exclusive to marine brands.

There's more to consumers choosing a particular name brand than customer support. The truth is a lot of boat owners are completely clueless about audio. They're lured in by marketing and reviews from others describing how great "name brand" product is. Sadly a lot of customer reviewers of marine audio don't have much of a baseline to make an accurate review. They simply think it's the best because that's all they know. Saying "name brand subwoofer" is the best when it's the only sub they've heard is just as accurate as someone saying a Prius is the fastest car when it's the only car they've ridden in.

If failure and warranty are of such concern why not buy a spare of each and still save money? Redundancy will always defeat even the best return policy. Example; you could buy 2 of these keep one as a spare for $80 less than the qty 1 of product with "marine brand name" on it. Another example, you could buy 2 pairs of these and keep one pair as a spare for $50 less than 1 pair of the same product with "marine brand name" on it. I could go on. This also illustrates that a lot of marine products are, indeed, "knock offs" of another product.

You mean that the mfgers SOMETIMES embelish their performance, quality, or when comparing their product to their competition?? Say it aint so!!

FInd a place that sells what you are looking for, and go listen to it. It took me over a year to gather the components for my home stereo...course I was 20 years old then, so my priorities have changed a tad. Still have my Phase Linear amps/pre amp and Acoustic Research AR-9 speakers. You can NEVER have too much clean power!!

Edited November 6, 2012 by [email protected]

[shawndoggy]

It must be November because we've got a "tastes great!" "less filling!" sausage measuring contest going on in the stereo forum.

Many thanks to CRF Rider for keeping it real and giving the best legit response to the OP's question in this thread.

[CRF-Rider]

You mean that the mfgers SOMETIMES embelish their performance, quality, or when comparing their product to their competition?? Say it aint so!!

FInd a place that sells what you are looking for, and go listen to it. It took me over a year to gather the components for my home stereo...course I was 20 years old then, so my priorities have changed a tad. Still have my Phase Linear amps/pre amp and Acoustic Research AR-9 speakers. You can NEVER have too much clean power!!

Ha! If you insist.... it ain't so! Ahhh...home audio, much more involved and complex than 12v audio. Some of the discussions on diyaudio and audiokarma make my head spin. I'm currently in the process of building Paul Carmody's diy bookshelf speakers, "Overnight Sensations." These will be unique as the cabinet will be built entirely from granite....should last a long time

Many thanks to CRF Rider for keeping it real and giving the best legit response to the OP's question in this thread.

Thanks man, I appreciate it. Truth be told I don't own a Malibu (although I'd like to!). I happened to run across a thread here via Google search and chimed in. I will say it's refreshing to see the free flowing knowledge on this board. It reminds me of WW's early days, vice the commercialized and communist feel it has become. Most of the marine audio pioneers are no longer around, having been ran off by agressive and IMO, unethical marketing tactics. It's really sad seeing naive consumers victumized by marketing, paying multiple X's more solely because they don't know any better. Anyway, I'm glad I could help...

[robtr8]

I'm in the middle of re-powering my afternoon boat (my buddies X1). We added an Arc Audio KEQ5 and are waiting for Pioneer to release their new GM-D amps at the end of the month. Might be worth a look.

In my experience with the Kicker KM6500.2's, you really need to add the additional KM6500 mid's. I didn't because you really can't get three pair's on the Titan III tower unless you hang a pair on top. I wasn't willing to double down on my investment in the Kickers and ghey up the boat.

I wound up stripping everything off the tower this spring to see if we could do ATB with the Titan III tower (you can). Now I'm thinking of adding a single WS 410. If you're interested in trying the Kicker's, I might be willing to sell you my set, used 1/2 a season last summer, cheap. I also have a pair of 3 halogen light bars and two pair of Titan I cans. PM me if interested.

[Colby2ya]

Well, i finally got my ZLD EQ in, speaker wires, rcas, PPI 900.4 AMP, and kicker tower speakers. That's it so for...other speakers to come later before the season start. Currently we have rerun all my speaker wires and RCAs, not an easy task but we got it done. Next is mounting the ZLD where my orignal head unit was. Then we going to install amp and hook up all the power wires and perko switch the right way...which i still need to figure out. Pretty sure that was the main reason i was getting unwanted noise through my speakers. I'll take pictures of build when done!