Best 12/13 inch sub

[Deephaven]

David,

Same boat for me when it comes to speaker building although I started in car audio competitions in the 80's. At the moment, I work in the world of verifying those FEA tools so I am rather familiar. While there regularly are flaws in execution and use of the programs, they are easily measured experimentally and either corrected or more often ignored. That is the choice of the manufacturer. You can pretty much guess which most do. I also love the computation power as well. Modeling world is how everything that we enjoy nearly every day from a technology perspective is built. Our cars, the engines in our boats, the transmissions, hulls, stereo's, pretty much everything technological. What I find amusing is when people don't believe in this technology for a portion of things they buy and then blindly accept it for other things.

Real world hands on experience trumps specs everytime. Specs are only half the battle.

Only if you don't understand the specifications. Not saying that comparisons and experience aren't useful, but when they are colored by ownership the natural bias comes through in posts and responses and in those cases specifications alone would be much better. If doing a true blind A/B and real listening test then by all means.

My comment you also misinterpreted. I've owned and used a w6. Dave analyzed them from looking at their specs. Our opinions of the driver are spot on identical...but of course even JL would know that as they modeled it during their design process and designed to a certain criteria which is evident from the measurements of the driver. Conveniently when you learn how to understand those measurements they tell a rather clear story. Sure beats having to buy every driver in the price class to figure out which one suits your needs the best or to buy a single one somewhat blindly, fall in love with it based on ownership and a sample size of one, and promote it as the only solution for everyone. Regrettably the latter is what typically happens in audio forums on the web.

[Bobby Light]

David,

Same boat for me when it comes to speaker building although I started in car audio competitions in the 80's. At the moment, I work in the world of verifying those FEA tools so I am rather familiar. While there regularly are flaws in execution and use of the programs, they are easily measured experimentally and either corrected or more often ignored. That is the choice of the manufacturer. You can pretty much guess which most do. I also love the computation power as well. Modeling world is how everything that we enjoy nearly every day from a technology perspective is built. Our cars, the engines in our boats, the transmissions, hulls, stereo's, pretty much everything technological. What I find amusing is when people don't believe in this technology for a portion of things they buy and then blindly accept it for other things.

Only if you don't understand the specifications. Not saying that comparisons and experience aren't useful, but when they are colored by ownership the natural bias comes through in posts and responses and in those cases specifications alone would be much better. If doing a true blind A/B and real listening test then by all means.

My comment you also misinterpreted. I've owned and used a w6. Dave analyzed them from looking at their specs. Our opinions of the driver are spot on identical...but of course even JL would know that as they modeled it during their design process and designed to a certain criteria which is evident from the measurements of the driver. Conveniently when you learn how to understand those measurements they tell a rather clear story. Sure beats having to buy every driver in the price class to figure out which one suits your needs the best or to buy a single one somewhat blindly, fall in love with it based on ownership and a sample size of one, and promote it as the only solution for everyone. Regrettably the latter is what typically happens in audio forums on the web.

Well I never said anything about a w6 sub but I've owned several so I've got experience with those too. I guess my point was that while specs are great and point you int the right direction they aren't absolute in whether something will work in a certain application or not. There have been many examples where things that shouldn't have worked on paper actually worked exceptionally well in the application sense. Point being you can't use one without the other.

[Deephaven]

Well I never said anything about a w6 sub but I've owned several so I've got experience with those too

Experience with a driver is vastly different than comparing two blindly.

There have been many examples where things that shouldn't have worked on paper actually worked exceptionally well in the application sense.

For instance? Outside of operator error and a misunderstanding of the process somewhere I'd like to hear where you think this happens.

[Bobby Light]

Experience with a driver is vastly different than comparing two blindly.

For instance? Outside of operator error and a misunderstanding of the process somewhere I'd like to hear where you think this happens.

Comparing two blindly? One example (not just talking subwoofers here) is a hybrid tower speaker setup. Not gonna get into a bunch of detail on that, it was before your time on here.

[Deephaven]

Sorry, blind testing is the term used for jury testing to take out bias of the people doing the test. Commonly used for all Sound Quality studies on things as simple as the sound a car door makes when it closes to of course speaker testing.

That isn't a sub example which is the topic at hand as the OP is interested in the best sub, not a hybrid tower speaker setup.

[nyryan2001]

Sounds more like a Vulcan logic debate vs folks sharing their experiences and thoughts on the different setups. Seems as though the growing trend on here lately for some is to over-complicate everything to either try to impress folks.... or drum up business...to scare them into thinking its all so complicated that a mere mortal DIY'er doesnt stand a chance to comprehend lofty marine stereo theory.

W6? a higher end 600w (mid-powered) sub that has a reputation of of excellent sound quality. Depending on your goals and what you are trying to do, many folks are putting in x3 bigger, more powerfull sub/amp combos to get the bass response they are looking for. Open cockpit boats are not sealed and designed acoustic showrooms...in short, you gotta go relatively big to get moderate increases in performance. The W6 would def sound much better than factory setup.... but you arent going to set any records or rock out party cove on a 600w W6.

Depends on what you are after....balanced sound for those in the boat?.... for the surfer 10ft behind the boat?.. or more of an AC/DC concert for everyone within 50-100m of your boat.

[Bobby Light]

Sounds more like a Vulcan logic debate vs folks sharing their experiences and thoughts on the different setups. Seems as though the growing trend on here lately for some is to over-complicate everything to either try to impress folks.... or drum up business...to scare them into thinking its all so complicated that a mere mortal DIY'er doesnt stand a chance to comprehend lofty marine stereo theory.

W6? a higher end 600w (mid-powered) sub that has a reputation of of excellent sound quality. Depending on your goals and what you are trying to do, many folks are putting in x3 bigger, more powerfull sub/amp combos to get the bass response they are looking for. Open cockpit boats are not sealed and designed acoustic showrooms...in short, you gotta go relatively big to get moderate increases in performance. The W6 would def sound much better than factory setup.... but you arent going to set any records or rock out party cove on a 600w W6.

Depends on what you are after....balanced sound for those in the boat?.... for the surfer 10ft behind the boat?.. or more of an AC/DC concert for everyone within 50-100m of your boat.

Well said .

[Deephaven]

And I guess that proves your point.

There have been many examples where things that shouldn't have worked on paper actually worked exceptionally well in the application sense.

...but you will provide none. I know exactly how to take that.

Seems as though the growing trend on here lately for some is to over-complicate everything to either try to impress folks.... or drum up business...to scare them into thinking its all so complicated that a mere mortal DIY'er doesnt stand a chance to comprehend lofty marine stereo theory.

I like how when someone says they want a wakesurf board, wakeboard, waterski, prop etc. all sorts of questions get asked to make sure that the right one is offered as a solution but when someone asks about a sub the answer is always what the person replying owns. See the problem here? Questions are logical when the thread doesn't have enough info to relay what is needed. Also sort of crappy that the brand loyalty has pushed so far that members who are vendors are shunned from actually posting what they feel since people feel it is to drum up business. Conveniently for me I have nothing to sell, no interest in being in that business, and pretty much despise most manufacturers in it for their shady behavior. The 12v industry as a whole is pretty shady. Not all manufacturers of course, but there are a ton just looking for a quick buck. And as a very mortal diy'er that pisses me off as do the brand boneriffic posts I periodically see detracting from this forum. And for those that find that process complicated, the same will come with their board, boat, prop and other purchases as well. This is a forum, people are here to talk about those things and learn along with making their decision.

Depends on what you are after....balanced sound for those in the boat?.... for the surfer 10ft behind the boat?.. or more of an AC/DC concert for everyone within 50-100m of your boat.

Exactly and there are more questions too that need to be answered before sharing experiences is even logical.

[Bobby Light]

And I guess that proves your point.

...but you will provide none. I know exactly how to take that.

I like how when someone says they want a wakesurf board, wakeboard, waterski, prop etc. all sorts of questions get asked to make sure that the right one is offered as a solution but when someone asks about a sub the answer is always what the person replying owns. See the problem here? Questions are logical when the thread doesn't have enough info to relay what is needed. Also sort of crappy that the brand loyalty has pushed so far that members who are vendors are shunned from actually posting what they feel since people feel it is to drum up business. Conveniently for me I have nothing to sell, no interest in being in that business, and pretty much despise most manufacturers in it for their shady behavior. The 12v industry as a whole is pretty shady. Not all manufacturers of course, but there are a ton just looking for a quick buck. And as a very mortal diy'er that pisses me off as do the brand boneriffic posts I periodically see detracting from this forum. And for those that find that process complicated, the same will come with their board, boat, prop and other purchases as well. This is a forum, people are here to talk about those things and learn along with making their decision.

Exactly and there are more questions too that need to be answered before sharing experiences is even logical.

Ahh the great equalizer, saving the internet one post at a time. Have fun with that.

[Deephaven]

So by your continual off topic responses I'll take it that you aren't going to enlighten us with an on topic response showing your stance that utilizing science to understand which driver might be "best" for a particular users goals is not effective and points you regularly in the wrong direction.

[Bobby Light]

Thought I did when I said its not done by your specs alone, takes experience as well to know what works well in different applications. Never met or heard of an installer that goes by specs alone putting a system together, but hey maybe that's how they do it in your part of the country where you don't need hands on experience with anything, and where experience with product is actually a detriment to giving advice.

[Bradley Thornton]

Thought I did when I said its not done by your specs alone, takes experience as well to know what works well in different applications. Never met or heard of an installer that goes by specs alone putting a system together, but hey maybe that's how they do it in your part of the country where you don't need hands on experience with anything, and where experience with product is actually a detriment to giving advice.

I will say I agree specs are nice and are something you need to know but I like to know what you have and what you think of it because you are going to compare it to the boats and the systems you have been around. People may say you need more but from the boat to say 100 feet my set up is all a person should need.

[Deephaven]

Thought I did when I said its not done by your specs alone, takes experience as well to know what works well in different applications. Never met or heard of an installer that goes by specs alone putting a system together, but hey maybe that's how they do it in your part of the country where you don't need hands on experience with anything, and where experience with product is actually a detriment to giving advice.

So you shared a specific example? I don't see it, based on your post:

There have been many examples where things that shouldn't have worked on paper actually worked exceptionally well in the application sense.

It should be rather easy to share an example since there are many. I am sure everyone reading this thread is eager for you to show us how things that work scientifically don't work in application.

If you can't offer examples we'll just assume that you have a brand bias that didn't model the way you wanted it to so you chose to ignore it and are disputing science with subjective blinders on.

[Deephaven]

And just to clarify so that the OP understands why this conversation is going this route. The most logical approach for choosing a subwoofer is to determine the space at hand, the budget, the power, the targeted response and then model some drivers to fit within those parameters choosing the one that then best fits your needs. There is no "best" driver without the application and those parameters define the application.

Surely a lot better than trusting someone who has had X different subs and tells you which one of the X they liked the best even though they've never fairly compared all of them together. (X can pretty much be any number you like, but think about the average poster on here and how little that number will actually be). Subjectivity and bias with limited experience is not helpful.

[nyryan2001]

My favorite lines by these same folks over-complicating everything: " you can't trust what anyone says on the internet, everyone else is wrong [ie: come to me and I will save you] " -----> scare tactic. Oh man I better come to you else the sky will fall.

then why even have a TMC? TMC IS for info sharing. Thats the whole purpose of sites lite this, Wikipedia and others. WISDOM of the masses...share experiences and toughts on stuff, the truth and best stuff almost always rises to the top. Yep, you will have some crazy stuff out there once in a while, but thats needed to continually challenge and improve the knowlege base. folks are the judge as to what they deem is legit.

These folks want to discredit that and convince folks that THEY are the only ones who can comprehend all this way way complicated stuff.

The same names and products CONTINUE to surface for marine audio over and over... Wetsounds, Exile, REV10s, XM9's etc etc.

The same names and products CONTINUE to surface for car audio over and over.... JL, Fi, DD, Fosgate, Kicker etc etc.

[JoeMama]

Thanks for all the responses, I was looking more for names/models and peoples experiences with their new and old setup.

Here's the short version of my setup/situation

• Want lot of bass in my boat. Not outside my boat. I crank the music and listen inside boat and when wakeboarding and when doing 45 mph. Also want bigger bass when music is low volume. I dont listen to music outside my boat except when on wakeboard. So I only want the extra bass when in the boat. Dont do party cove thing, I listen to other peoples boats for that matter :-)
  
• Have JL M600/6 for my 6 cabin JL M650s. Sounds great.
  
• HAve Alpine PDX-4.100M for my Skylon 6.5 inch tower speakers (which I dont think sound so good). Will get better tower speakers next year.
  
• Did not want to change my 90 amp ALT this year (or maybe not even in future years)
  
• HAve 2 standard batteries and one bad boy

  AGM 12V Battery, Group 8D, 245 Ah, 1800 MCA, 480 Res. Min., 20.75"L x 11"W x 10"H, 161lb

  
  

• Have my old Alpine PDX-1.600M for sub and want to see how it sounds with new sub before I make a decision on getting a new amp.
  
• Blew up my $90 Rockford car sub which was stock Malibu. Using a sealed 10W6 in meantime but want more bass. So since I like JL speakers and the 10W6 sounded decent, figured go with the 13W6 in a one inch ported box http://www.fatboxusa.com/servlet/the-238/1%22MDF-13%22JL-AUDIO-13W6V2/Detail which I ordered from http://www.fatboxusa.com/servlet/StoreFront . Will get coated inside and out with marine resin and then carpeted on all sides with Malibu matched carpet. Sub will face driver and takes up my whole space so no need for faceplate since the sub box basically fills the whole spot except for 6 inches on right which I will have a small carpet removable cover (behind which are my three amps). I also ordered the W6 screen for woofer.
  The box DIMENSIONS: 16 1/2" HEIGHT, 20" WIDTH, 19" DEPTH.
  a) My height to steering column is 19 inches. Which leaves me with
  2.5 inches to spare. That allows me to possibly keep the enclosure off
  the floor by about 2 inches in case I get a large wave in boat.
  b) I have about 26 inches width which reduces to about 22 inches
  in back. So that works.
  c) I have a clear 22 inches of depth and then I have wires coming
  in from floor. I could have more clearance but my width gets small all the way back. So that works.
  

I am sure this will be good enough for me. If not then I will upgrade my amp and if still not then go off and get a much louder sub and new ALT. IF my JL W6 surround foam deteriorates, oh well.....live and learn.

[Deephaven]

Bobby, would be a rather enlightening time to share one of your many examples since the OP is looking for other driver experiences and knowing where my recommendation would steer him wrong would help.

[Ronnie]

Stop it! These argumentative posts are not productive and are not going to be tolerated. Keep it up and this thread will be closed. If you have value to add to the OP's questions give it, if you want to argue or try to entice each other to, take it to PM.

[nyryan2001]

Well you have a quality sub in that 13W6, and a terrific box there from Fatbox. You are 2/3 of the way there.

You may have left a little on the table there with the 600w amp.... And that's 600w at 14.4v. at rest at 12.4-12.5v you are more likely at around 400-450w.

With a 750w RMS sub, esp of that High quality, i'd look for an amp that's a true 800-1000w range ....That W6 would do great. Clipping kills subs 99% over thermal damage.

I could recommend a good amp on this but that would really rat hole this thread!