Best 12/13 inch sub

[JoeMama]

Regardless of price (well, under $1K) and the "it depends response". This assumes best power/alternator, enclosure, amps, batteries, install, and one ported 12 or 13 inch sub under dash facing cabin.

For rock music like Linkin Park, Three Days Grace, Rage Against, and Club/House Music, Rap, etc etc

1) Which "Marine Grade" 12 or 13 inch ported subs are the top choice for loud/great bass ?

2) Which "Non Marine Grade" 12 or 13 ported sub are the top choice for loud/best bass?

Looking for like a top 5 or 10? I am not looking for a technical debate but just a rough understanding of the "whos who in the sub world"

Currently looking at the non marine grade JL 13W6V2-D4

Edited May 30, 2012 by JoeMama

[Bobby Light]

You forgot power, how much you working with?

[old skool malibu]

I just installed the Exile Xi12d sub in my boat. I felt the package deal with the Exile 1500 amp was good value and Paul (Bakes) ships USPS to Canada. I find the amp and sub appear to be well built and I am pretty happy with the results thus far.

Edited May 30, 2012 by old skool malibu

[JTech]

Will a 15" fit under the helm of a 2007? A ported 15 would go pretty low and hammer in the open air environment of a boat.

What does the rest of the system look like? The sub might overpower the mid and high freq ranges if the rest is not up to par?

[robtr8]

In my humble opinion the Rainbow Vanadium is the best sub I've ever heard. New Arc Black is pretty cool too but the Vanadium hits. As David and others have mentioned, the box is equally or more important. PWK designs are phenomenal.

[JoeMama]

A pro audio shop out here in California mentioned they have had no issues with non-marine grade subs. However they are saying that JL subs like 13W6 are not that great for rock/club music and its more of a one note wonder meaning it sounds great at specific frequency. Maybe they are referring to the 5dB hump at 50Hz?They are saying ARC Audio Black series much better, http://www.arcaudio.com/product-pages/subwoofers/black-series/black12.asp

Anyone dispute that JL comment?

[gorilla]

Will a 15" fit under the helm of a 2007? A ported 15 would go pretty low and hammer in the open air environment of a boat.

A ported 15 probably won't fit. My sealed 15 takes up most all of the room under my dash. It hits hard and fast, love it.

[JTech]

A ported 15 probably won't fit. My sealed 15 takes up most all of the room under my dash. It hits hard and fast, love it.

I have the same under mine, but I think the OP is looking for deeper/louder bass which the large cone area + a larger amp should attain if I remember correctly. I think Bobby has a ported 15 under his, but I wonder if the space on the 2007 is smaller than the newer models.

[MARiley]

13w7

[Deephaven]

A pro audio shop out here in California mentioned they have had no issues with non-marine grade subs. However they are saying that JL subs like 13W6 are not that great for rock/club music and its more of a one note wonder meaning it sounds great at specific frequency. Maybe they are referring to the 5dB hump at 50Hz?They are saying ARC Audio Black series much better, http://www.arcaudio....ies/black12.asp

Anyone dispute that JL comment?

That shop is moronic. The w6 is the best sounding JL sub there is. Not as capable output wise, but stellar in a well built box.

The whole "best" thing in the thread is ridiculous. Best is subjective. For all we know you may like an SPL fart cannon or something subdued and linear like the Rainbow mentioned above. Depending on what your ears prefer could change things drastically.

Just to keep this on topic, here's what I'd pick if money were no object.

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=33

[JoeMama]

I like that word "Moronic"....havent heard it in a while. I went ahead with the 13W6 ported but still curious to everyone's favorites.

The intent of the posting is to get a rough idea on top ten vendor list. Its a good way to start investigating/researching.

[cowwboy]

I'd stay with only drivers made in the states.

That leaves you with Digital designs, jl's w7, Exile big series, RE MT's. There are quite a few more I'm forgetting.

There is a shop in cali that builds for quite a few of the above companies. But the spl comp's are all won by U.S. made drivers.

[Earmark Marine]

I won't get into the brand to brand woofer comparisons. But, for a number of reasons you really have to negotiate through a ton of misinformation on a variety of products created by people for a number of different reasons. There is a hard reality to it though. The best of the best are all working within the same basic design restraints whether physics or materials access. Some are looking for balanced performance objectives. Some take a particular discipline to an extreme at the sacrifice of other performance attributes. But none can avoid the fact that an extreme pursuit in a singular focus compromises some other area. For example.

Higher sensitivity may result in less low frequency extension.

Or, higher sensitivity may require an inordinate enclosure size to reach as low into the bass.

A voice coil which will handle far more power may have far more inherent inductance and very poor upper bass responsiveness which impacts sound quality.

A woofer can either deliver a linear (more even) output over a wider bandwidth at a lower output or deliver much more output over a narrower bandwidth.

The falacy is when one woofer is represented as a master of everything. There is going to be a trade off or at least moderation in some performance areas.

So 'best' is tough to nail down until the product owner begins to narrow down what his/her primary objectives are and what they are willing to give a little in return.

Your favorites may not be my favorites. Nothing wrong with that.

Even speaker designers can be highly biased and subjective based on their experiences or a culture that they previously worked in.

Plus, you do not want to form fixed ideas based on limited exposures or exposure to bad execution created from the wrong enclosure design, system tuning or other flaws in design/installation.

Subwoofer performance is very dependent on the enclosure as well as a number of other factors. You just can't select a woofer independent of the boat and enclosure if you want the best results.

David

[Deephaven]

And you also can't just generically choose a brand or a top ten. Each manufacturer makes drivers geared towards certain markets, price points, preferences and using some "list" to think you've narrowed your choice down right may get you seriously in trouble. The W6 is a great example of this. It is geared definitely for a particular audience and doesn't do so well for those that stray from the need those people want.

[JoeMama]

So what audience do you think the JL 13W6 is geared for?

[Iron gator]

Well I'm certainly not a stereo expert, but I listen to the type of music that you listed, and I'm really happy with my dual 12s in a sealed box under the helm, but I run a lot of power to them. They are Kicker CV's I believe. Not sure where they rate compared to JL's or any other brand though.

[Earmark Marine]

JM,

This won't answer your question directly but is a more universal response.

Usually the Thiele Small parameters will at least tell part of the story.

If a woofer has a low resonance in its size class and a moderate Qts (between .4 and .5) then it is going to like a fairly small air suspension/sealed enclosure as well as a moderate sized bass-reflex enclosure. A lower 'Q' might be polarized more for ported. Not always, but this manufacturer in this series fitting the above general description might be looking for a neutral sounding, linear over a broad bandwidth with deep bass extension from a small box. That would be a sound quality woofer without any hint of a pronounced signature.

Now, the above is not always the preference of everyone.

In a sealed enclosure if you wanted to maintain the above attributes you might look for a final Qtc (woofer in enclosure) of around .8 to .85.

You can shrink the enclosure size and achieve higher peak output at the cost of some deep bass extension and linearity. You might interpret this as sounding more responsive and louder. Or, you can enlarge the enclosure and deepen the low frequency extension at the cost of average output and transients. You may feel this one in your gut a bit more. It might go deeper but may also sound musically flat or a little indiscriminant.

In a bass-reflex enclosure you can select a very linear and well-damped alignment or you can select an alignment that narrows the bandwidth but provides a monster output peak.

In a very similar manner a woofer designer/manufacturer makes these identical choices and trade-offs.

More excursion might mean less internal efficiency.

A heavier motor may get more peak output but raise the resonance.

More power handling might sacrifice sound quality.

An SQ woofer might be an exercise in fine tuning, both in the woofer parameters and enclosure design.

An SPL woofer might be an exercise in narrowing the design focus.

David

[Bobby Light]

Let me summarize. Different strokes for different folks.

[Deephaven]

Dave, great post. Again proving why it is not necessary to listen or have experience with a speaker to understand how it will sound. You hit the nail on the head with the description. Probably my all time favorite mainstream sub for in car applications. Of course, it is one I can rarely recommend to most people as their desires and mine are completely different. Definitely far from what I will run in my boat as well, but that's for a different reason altogether.

[Bobby Light]

LOL if you say so.

[ande2407]

Dave,

Seriously it could not be said better. You just digested years of learning.

[Bradley Thornton]

Ok I'm not on the same page as other people. But I just added a 12' sub I went with the Rockford fosgate P3 that come in a factor ported box it fits great on my 06 v-ride under the dash. It's 600w rms 1200w peek I'm running it on 1ohm at 750w rms and I love it. Also went with the 2 pair of M2's and 2 pair of XM9's

[Deephaven]

LOL if you say so.

Are you LOL'ing at the science or the fact that I rarely find a time to recommend a w6 as most people's mobile audio goals and mine don't line up?

[Bobby Light]

Are you LOL'ing at the science or the fact that I rarely find a time to recommend a w6 as most people's mobile audio goals and mine don't line up?

Real world hands on experience trumps specs everytime. Specs are only half the battle.

[Earmark Marine]

Deephaven,

I've been building my personal home speakers since I was a teenager, including bass-reflex, quarter wave transmission lines and building my own passive crossovers down to winding my own coils. Before cheap and slow Commodore computers in the 80s, we had to do everything the long hand way including tuning enclosures by trial and error with a signal generator, variable length vents and a Real Time Analyzer.

I've worked with some of the best speaker engineers including one that was a contributing author in Vance Dickason's 7th edition Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. In the 80s I couldn't get Thiele Small parameter specs on many of the woofers that I used so I had to invest in the equipment to measure the parameters and with a little help from my friends.

Today, a few of the more sophisticated woofer manufacturers use computer modeling tools such as Finite Element Analysis that has elevated precision to an entirely new level.

Of course there can be a gap between the specs and the actual measured results based on inaccurate manufacturer specs, something that was overlooked in the calculation or a flaw in the execution. Certainly knowledge and experience bridge that gap. But I've got to tell you how thankful I am that the specs and computer power are available today.

David