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Shaboy6

Amp Questions

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Shaboy6

Well I decided to keep my wetsounds 3 some setup for another season, I was going to swap my pro 80's for rev 10's, maybe next year. But my question is, I have a guy that wants to buy my syn 6, so I was thinking of switching to 2 arc audio amps to run my tower instead. I want to get some more volume out of them and I don't think the syn 6 gets even close to what the 3 some is capable of. So what are your opinions. Sorry for the long post

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shawndoggy

ks300.2 bridged to the pro485; ks300.4 bridged (or 600.2 @ two channels) to the Pro80s. Not sure how you could pour on more heat than that.

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Shaboy6

Ya that's the 2 I was lookin at. Will it be a noticeable difference in sound. Also going that route will be more efficient battery wise right.

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shawndoggy

I don't know about the efficiency argument. the ks series are g/h, not a/b like the syn6, but if memory serves, the Arc amps aren't terribly efficient when pulling full current bridged. Of course you'd be way overpowering those speakers so it's unlikely that you'd actually have the amps cranking at full tilt.

My gut reaction is that I doubt that there'd be real efficiency gains (and maybe losses, given the additional power being delivered), but that the increase in volume would probably be noticeable.

That's all completely unscientific conjecture, so don't spend it all in one place.

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TallRedRider

For a very brief time, I had one pair of REV 8's hooked up to an Arc audio 600.2. There was a noticeable difference when I had each one on their own channel, compared to when I had them bridged together and run on just one channel. It was much better. I tried to find some explanation and this is what I came up with: The pair of speakers in parallel were at 2.6 Ohms when measured, not 2 Ohms. So I am not sure the power output doubled. Otherwise I think it gets somewhat complicated...as to why 300 watts at 4 Ohms to each speaker sounded better to me than 600 watts at 2 Ohms to both speakers. In theory, it is the same power, but on the other hand, it is not exactly the same.

I like Shawndoggy's suggestion, and bet you would find more clarity and volume in the music. Then you are also prepared to upgrade if you do what he said. I have been considering selling the 600.2 and getting 2 300.4's to get me a little extra juice to the 2 pair of REV 10's I have now, just for the heck of it.

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Shaboy6

Well my 3 main reasons for the switch are, more power should equal more volume.( I hope). By running those 2 amps they won't be cranked up so I won't be having heat issues like I did with my syn 6. And by having those amps Im half way there for when I purchase rev 10's. So you guys are saying it will defiantly be an upgrade right.

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Night Rider

Is the 300.4 comparable to the sin 4?

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shawndoggy

For a very brief time, I had one pair of REV 8's hooked up to an Arc audio 600.2. There was a noticeable difference when I had each one on their own channel, compared to when I had them bridged together and run on just one channel. It was much better. I tried to find some explanation and this is what I came up with: The pair of speakers in parallel were at 2.6 Ohms when measured, not 2 Ohms. So I am not sure the power output doubled. Otherwise I think it gets somewhat complicated...as to why 300 watts at 4 Ohms to each speaker sounded better to me than 600 watts at 2 Ohms to both speakers. In theory, it is the same power, but on the other hand, it is not exactly the same.

I like Shawndoggy's suggestion, and bet you would find more clarity and volume in the music. Then you are also prepared to upgrade if you do what he said. I have been considering selling the 600.2 and getting 2 300.4's to get me a little extra juice to the 2 pair of REV 10's I have now, just for the heck of it.

dumb question but were you running the amp mono under both configurations?

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Earmark Marine

Just some general information about amplifiers.

Its rare that an amplifier will actually double in power into half the impedance because the voltage of the power supply tends to sag as you over-tax it. So there is a buffer in between the audio amplifier section and the battery supply.

All topologies of amplifiers, whether D, AB or G/H, will lose some efficiency as you lower the load and bridging is effectively lowering the load. The damping and distortion level is also somewhat negatively affected.

In a sense running an amplifier at a lower impedance is kind of like running an engine closer to redline. The amplifier's internal power supply is a limited resource. You have less reserves available. So I have usually noticed a favorable difference in the dynamic headroom and cleanliness on fullrange speakers when the amplfier was run more conservatively. The 4-ohm load seems to clip more gracefully where as the 2-ohm load seems to fall on its face harder at clipping. This same condition is far less obvious or has a different signature at lower frequencies with a subwoofer application. A sub begins to sound loose and boomy as you exceed the amplifier capacity where as fullrange speakers may continue to get louder at clipping as a harshness is introduced.

Many people simply run excess power regardless of the load to keep the amplifiers running within their conservative range. And this works to a point. At some threshold every speaker will reach dynamic compression and is no longer as responsive to additional power. Working within that window is important to avoid speaker thermal damage.

I like the above speaker and amplifier packages just as they are recommended.

David

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Brianinpdx

Shaboy - There is no substitute for "available" power. Ever. And with that said, there is no substitute for the real world. Having dedicated amplifiers for each zone, or even bi-amping the tower zone as you've asked about is going to be of benefit. But that benefit is going to come at a cost. The reason why you had a Syn6 in the first place is its a great 1 amp solution and often come that way right from the factory. Tons of flexibility and lots of channels. It's limiting factor is going to be the total power in the power supply. For many, there would be no reason to ever upgrade. For others such as yourself, you are going to want more power to feed the tower zone.

First thing I would do is start with a call to wet sounds and go over these details with them. They are going to be experts in their product and have a straight forward solution to driving the speaker configuration you've inquired about.

From an imperial point of view-- I'd agree with most of what David has laid out. We should all keep in mind that even the largest amplifiers reach a clipped point. This often times has to do with a source player driving that clipped signal into the amplifier. The key here is looking for a balanced approach that will combined the right power amplifier to the right speaker. When you overwork any amplifier either because you demand more power from it that its capable of delivering or push it into a situation that its operating outside of its safe operating area (i.e low impedance loads), bad things happen.

The "ideal" setup is going big power, light loads, and rock solid input signals. This allows an amplifier to operate without any compression and deliver ultra fast transient response from acoustic point of view. We could get into a whole different discussion about transient response, artificial clipping and the like, but the bottom line is, The bigger the amplifier you can integrate into the system, the better off you'll be.

The way I'd answer your question is bi-amp those tower speakers and turn up the V :>

-Brian

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Murphy8166

David, what do mean by dynamic compression?

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Earmark Marine

Murphy,

With all speakers there comes a point of power saturation resulting in what is known as 'dynamic compression'. There are a number of contributing factors.

1. The voice coil heats up. Sufficiently heated the VC will change resistance and the impedance may double or even more. As the impedance increases the amplifier delivers less power. The volume gets turned up. The voice coil is heated even more so. Its a cycle that can result in permanent damage to a speaker that may still play but with a charred VC but is not performing at its best any longer.

2. The above condition where the VC impedance changes also re-biases the value of the crossover components related to frequency. So as you overdrive a speaker the sound quality can suffer from a completely different type of distortion.

3. The magnetic intensity will be reduced as you draw too heavily on the speaker magnet. This changes the speaker damping and additionally results in compression.

4. As you drive a speaker harder you have more excursion and more intertia to control. The mechanical suspension will reach a limit where it no longer behaves in a linear manner.

5. There are various types of cone distortion modes as the speaker no longer behaves as a perfectly rigid piston.

There's much more but you should get the idea. You can keep pumping more and more power into any speaker but at some point the speaker no longer continues to output with the same responsiveness and you begin to pour power into the black hole...not to mention it begins to sound really bad...and its destructive...not only to the speaker but to the human auditory system.

David

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Shaboy6

Wow guys thanks for all your info I really appreciate it.I want to call wetsounds tommorow but I hope I don't hear what I think I'm going to hear ( stick with your syn 6 it's the best). Like I said I'm trying to get some more power to that 3some and if I understand u guys right, running the 2 arc's is the way to go

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Steve B.

And of course keep in mind, to get 3 more db of sound, you need to double the power (for each 3dB).

It's kind of like doubling a penny each day for a month.

Each raises a lot of money, real quick.

Steve B.

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Earmark Marine

That's absolutely true Steve. Another fact is that it is widely accepted that it requires 10 dB more output to be perceived as twice as loud and 10 dB more acoustic output requires 10 times the amplifier power. That makes for a mighty steep uphill power curve especially in consideration of the limited current capabilities of a small boat. Too many boat audio systems are unknowingly designed so that they are trying to push the train uphill, so to speak, and leave a lot of potential unrealized.

David

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Murphy8166

Excellent point Steve and David - I couldn't agree more with the both of you :biggrin:

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WakesetterE

Can you fit another pro485 on the tower? I run two pro485,s at 350 watts each, its hard to imagine then louder.

Maybe you need more speaker area??

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Murphy8166

One set of pro 80s and one pro 485 will get louder than a pair of 485's. Granted it is not a big difference but three horns trumps 2 horns.

The dual pro 485 setup is the best sounding in my opinion.

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WakesetterE

I thought the horns were larger on the pro 485.s??

Hence louder?? Regardless they are very loud...

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Murphy8166

Maybe Tim White will chime in. Either way, both setups are insanely loud!

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Shaboy6

I think my pro 80's are louder but the 485 sounds a lot more full (more mid bass).i cant fit two 485's.

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