Integrated Bow Ballast Design..

[Indyxc]

Ok,

I've searched around, and there are some threads with bits and pieces, but nothing conclusive, or exact. If someone knows of a better thread point me that way.

Basically, what I want to do here sometime in the future, is setup an automatic under the seat bow bag, with the high fly w711. I like ramp wake, vs steep wake. So stock ballast + Wedge, and bow weight should be perfect.

The plan is as follows:

1. In the center locker, drill a thru hull hole.

2. Mount a 1 inch thru hole bronze fitting, and shut off valve.

3. Mount a piranha 800, and run the line to the lower left (Or right?) fill ports on the W711 bag.

4. Replace one of my unused "accessory" switches on the dash, with a fill/drain rocker switch.

5. Mount a piranha 800 drain pump on the lower drain port of the w711 bag, and run the drain to (one of the 2 vent/drain) lines for the center tank.

Now for my questions:

1. For the rocker switch, do the stock ones run a relay, or do they directly run the power through the switch?

2. Is there a preferred power source in the harness already? Or do most people run a dedicated power wire to the battery?

3. With 1 drain pump, Im guessing the front bow bag (under the seat) won't want to drain fully every time. How much water will be left in there?

4. Any reason why I shouldn't use one of the 2 drain vents for the center tank? Instead of drilling a new one?

5. I have my center t handle drain right near my center tank, which I never use, can I mount the pump there? My boat is on a lift, and it's slanted, so it drains nicely out the rear.

Thanks!

Edited August 15, 2011 by Indyxc

[BlitzedVLX]

Did you ever finish this project? I would like to do something similar on my 08 vlx

[Indyxc]

Blitzed, you know I never got around to doing this.

As far as projects for the boat, it was a toss up between stereo, and this. Stereo won out, this one is next.

[Nitrousbird]

For my front bag, I used the T-handle near the V-drive, and mounted my 3 reversible pumps in the same area:

Then I just fed the hose up to the front where the bag was. Wiring was 12awg directly to the switch, fed off of a 15 amp breaker.

[Ndawg12]

FYI, there are probably all ready wires ran for your pumps behind the gunnel in the bow. I've contemplated this project for 3 years now. That bag will only fill to about 350lbs. You will need a drain pump on both legs to empty the bag like you want.

[BlitzedVLX]

I have heard most vRide get up to 350lbs in the W711 so would my VLX be capable of holding more? I need to check and see if it has the wiring up front, also not sure if I have the extra outlet to drain. Would 2 piranha 800 pumps on each leg do the job to drain? Any recommendations for the fill pump?

I was thinking I would like to hook them to the mux switch to drain/fill but not mess around with drilling an extra outlet in the gelcoat if one is not already there. I was thinking I could maybe put a cap on the tubes connected to the drain/fill and simply pull up the seat when its that time and throw the hose over the side into the water to manually drain/top off. Heck I would not mind leaving 200lbs or so in them at all times. I ski off my dock and the commute to the party cove is not very far so i do not think it would be an issue leaving it some what full even when not boarding.

Edited May 15, 2012 by BlitzedVLX

[catcando]

I have the 711 bag in my 21LSV. It will not fill all the way and I think it is also short of the 350 Lbs. mark mentioned above. I "T'd" off the thru hull I have in my ski locker for a fill and ran 2 800GPH pumps to drain (one from each leg). For the drain I simply ran 2 hoses and "Y" them together 6" prior to the fitting. It drains VERY well and quite fast.

[TallRedRider]

I installed a Johnson reversible pump behind the subwoofer and threaded the hose through a hole in the upper portion of the small plastic storage doohickey in the walkway. I then keep a 400 pounds fly high bag under the playpen in the bow. To fill, I unroll the sack, hook up the quick connect, and flip the switch. When I empty, the sack is sucked completely dry and vaccuum tight. Then disconnect the hose and thread it back through the hole. It is out of sight.

I just attached it from the intake in the center compartment...I had a T handle bilge drain that was not in the lowest point anyway. Then I did drill a hole in the lowest portion for the drain, as my boat does not seem to drain completely out the rear, even when on the ramp.

I could easily put a large triangle sack in the bow, or an 1100 pound bag in the walkway if I ever wanted to.

I am pretty stoked about it. I hope to share some pics in a thread, but have not gotten around to it.

Edited May 15, 2012 by TallRedRider

[Nitrousbird]

Why screw around with these aerator pumps. Now you need two drains and a fill for one bag? By the time you buy 3 pumps and the pile of fittings you will need to make this work:

- You will have 5x the amount of time/effort in the install

- Many more points of possible failure

- Have spent more money

- Have used up more precious space on the boat.

Or buy 1 reversible pump; fill/drain through the same thru-hull be done with it. The more I read about these aerator installs, the more I'm glad I didn't go that route. Fill issues, drain issues, where to mount everything issues - or just do the install once, mount stuff where you want it, and be done.

[skibreeze]

Why screw around with these aerator pumps. Now you need two drains and a fill for one bag? By the time you buy 3 pumps and the pile of fittings you will need to make this work:

- You will have 5x the amount of time/effort in the install

- Many more points of possible failure

- Have spent more money

- Have used up more precious space on the boat.

Or buy 1 reversible pump; fill/drain through the same thru-hull be done with it. The more I read about these aerator installs, the more I'm glad I didn't go that route. Fill issues, drain issues, where to mount everything issues - or just do the install once, mount stuff where you want it, and be done.

Agreed, I'm replacing some of my aerator pumps with reversable, for faster and more complete fill/ drains.

[BlitzedVLX]

Why screw around with these aerator pumps. Now you need two drains and a fill for one bag? By the time you buy 3 pumps and the pile of fittings you will need to make this work:

- You will have 5x the amount of time/effort in the install

- Many more points of possible failure

- Have spent more money

- Have used up more precious space on the boat.

Or buy 1 reversible pump; fill/drain through the same thru-hull be done with it. The more I read about these aerator installs, the more I'm glad I didn't go that route. Fill issues, drain issues, where to mount everything issues - or just do the install once, mount stuff where you want it, and be done.

I am slightly confused why you mounted the single reversible pump in the V drive compartment for the front bag. I am guessing that is where I would use a T-handle to connect the line from one of the connects on the front bag to existing hardware in order to fill? So all I would need to do is run a single line from the w711 back to the vdrive compartment to fill and then connect a line from the w711 to a thru hull to drain and attach the power to the mux where I already have an option for front ballast?

Similar to this

http://www.wakemaker.../271/image/705/

Would the johnson reversible do the job or is there a cheaper alternative?

http://www.wakemaker...llast-pump.html

Edited May 16, 2012 by BlitzedVLX

[Nitrousbird]

I am slightly confused why you mounted the single reversible pump in the V drive compartment for the front bag. I am guessing that is where I would use a T-handle to connect the line from one of the connects on the front bag to existing hardware in order to fill? So all I would need to do is run a single line from the w711 back to the vdrive compartment to fill and then connect a line from the w711 to a thru hull to drain and attach the power to the mux where I already have an option for front ballast?

Similar to this

http://www.wakemaker.../271/image/705/

Would the johnson reversible do the job or is there a cheaper alternative?

http://www.wakemaker...llast-pump.html

Yes, it is one 1" hose ran from the V-drive compartment up to the W711. Very easy, no cutting involved. Pretty much exactly like the wakemaker diagram. I chose that spot because:

- The other 2 pumps were already there. It is space I could never utilize otherwise, and allowed all the wiring to go to one place

- I utilized the 3/4" T-handle drain, so I just bought a 90 degree elbow to screw onto it w/ a threaded male-to-male adapter. They make a male one side/female other side 90 degree elbow, but I needed a bit of extra height that the adapter gave me in order to have clearance for the shut-off ball valve

- I chose the 3/4" T for the front as it will restrict flow and performance slightly over the 1" thru-hulls I drilled for the locker bags. This is fine since the front bag holds a lot less water, so the slight restriction is fine.

There is also what looks like a thru-hull drain towards the middle of the boat near the ski locker. I haven't investigated that as well, though if/when I do a ski locker bag, I might try to utilize that for a 4th pump.

As for the pumps, the Johnson is the cheapest good pump. There are some smaller, non-ignition protected pumps you can get for less that you could safely place in your observers compartment but I wouldn't dare place around the engine (though I didn't pay $180 for my Johnson's either).

[catcando]

In my case, it was cost.

Tsunami 800 $26 = $78

Plumbing (ave $6/connector) for 711

At Bag 6 pcs = $36

At Fill Pump = $10 (ball valve)

At drain = $20

800gph vs. 720gph so a wash

So with rough math and using wakemakers's # it appears to be 1/2 the cost.

Not maybe the best but easy, cheap to replace and never any fill or drain issues on the bow bag. I do have drain issues on the rear 750's if the hose/pump becomes kinked do to the weight of the bag and the pump being directly mounted to the bag port. I plan to move those pumps off the bags this season.

I also like to see/hear the water during draining to indicate the process is underway or completed.

The T mentioned above is called a "Street T". 90* male to female thread.

[BlitzedVLX]

Yes, it is one 1" hose ran from the V-drive compartment up to the W711. Very easy, no cutting involved. Pretty much exactly like the wakemaker diagram. I chose that spot because:

- The other 2 pumps were already there. It is space I could never utilize otherwise, and allowed all the wiring to go to one place

- I utilized the 3/4" T-handle drain, so I just bought a 90 degree elbow to screw onto it w/ a threaded male-to-male adapter. They make a male one side/female other side 90 degree elbow, but I needed a bit of extra height that the adapter gave me in order to have clearance for the shut-off ball valve

- I chose the 3/4" T for the front as it will restrict flow and performance slightly over the 1" thru-hulls I drilled for the locker bags. This is fine since the front bag holds a lot less water, so the slight restriction is fine.

There is also what looks like a thru-hull drain towards the middle of the boat near the ski locker. I haven't investigated that as well, though if/when I do a ski locker bag, I might try to utilize that for a 4th pump.

As for the pumps, the Johnson is the cheapest good pump. There are some smaller, non-ignition protected pumps you can get for less that you could safely place in your observers compartment but I wouldn't dare place around the engine (though I didn't pay $180 for my Johnson's either).

Great thanks for all the advice! Looks like I have 2 routes to go. I feel the method using the 3 impellar johnson pump would be the best route. I am not sure If I have an extra drain outlet at the front, so I would need to install one for the drain, or would i be able to use one of the existing thru hull drains from one of the other tanks. I would then need to run 10' (is this enough??) of 1" ballast line to one of the connections on top of one of the w711 back to the vdrive compartment where I will mount the johnson pump. I will then use the T to tap into the existing inlet used to fill the other tanks?

Additionall supplies to purchase:

3/4 T Handle http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0062RXXRM/ref=pe_175190_21431760_cs_sce_dp_2

10' 1" Ballast hose http://www.wakemakers.com/marine-ballast-hose-black.html

20' Wire

Edited May 16, 2012 by BlitzedVLX

[JonnyRad91]

i cannot wait to take on this little project. I am going to put in a single reversible pump to fill up my wedge sac i put in the bow (i already have the box ballast under the seats and its not enough). These pumps work so well on nautiques you are crazy not to use them. I will be taking the water from the center locker, my question is have any of you guys had problems with the pump leaking water. I rather not have to go all the way back to the engine compartment only to hose it up to the front but I am a little concerned about the electrical stuff under each consol.

Also I will be mounting a new switch, all my switches are full on the dash. Whats the best way to get power? I havent been able to find any good instruction.

[Nitrousbird]

In my case, it was cost.

Tsunami 800 $26 = $78

Plumbing (ave $6/connector) for 711

At Bag 6 pcs = $36

At Fill Pump = $10 (ball valve)

At drain = $20

800gph vs. 720gph so a wash

So with rough math and using wakemakers's # it appears to be 1/2 the cost.

Not maybe the best but easy, cheap to replace and never any fill or drain issues on the bow bag. I do have drain issues on the rear 750's if the hose/pump becomes kinked do to the weight of the bag and the pump being directly mounted to the bag port. I plan to move those pumps off the bags this season.

I also like to see/hear the water during draining to indicate the process is underway or completed.

The T mentioned above is called a "Street T". 90* male to female thread.

You might want to break out a calculator again and make sure you have all of your parts.

I'm going to exclude all the parts that will be the same as an impellar pump (such as the ball valve, feed line to the bag, vent line, wiring for 1 pump, etc.).

But here are the extras you will need:

- 1 vented loop for the fill line (impellar pumps don't need these...aerator pumps do unless you like the danger of auto-filling your bags). $28

- 3 additional barb fitings (for 2 drain pumps). $12

- 1 Y-adapter for one drain bag to utilize the thru hull for the vent line (this is the cheaper/easier route). $5

- 1 additional thru hull for the other drain pump that isn't utilizing the vent line: $13

- 1 check valve for that drain pump thru hull: $14

- 10 additional hose clamps: $5

- Additional screw-on barb fittings to attach to drain pumps: $13

- At least another 10' of hose: $10

- At least another 20' in wiring: $15

So all the extra parts that you will need to do the same thing one impellar pump does: $115.

$115 + $78 in the 3 pumps = $193. That's more than the cost of the impellar pump, all the while having a far more complicated system, far longer/harder install, drilling an extra thru-hull for the 2nd drain pump, and having a system guaranteed to be less reliable with far more points of failure. So your money saved in the cheap pumps is more than offset by the costs to make those pumps actually work.

[Bradley Thornton]

I went with the W717 it fits better. This will show you the differents in size. Look at the pic.It fit great in my 06 V-ride but it does still lift the seats.

http://www.wakemakers.com/wakeboard-ballast-bags?manufacturer=6&gclid=CNnFtrHIh7ACFSrDtgodAFwtjQ&capacity=17

[Dexter]

Last season I automated the surf ballast on the rear lockers of my Vlx. It mirrors the stock system, fill and drain pumps, vented loops, vent and drain flow paths, etc. I did the work myself, but it ended up quite expensive anyway. In that respect, the reversible pumps would have been a better and more efficient way to go. The reason I chose the aerator pumps was that I wanted a fail safe system for when the wife and kids take the boat out (I work weekends sometimes). With the current setup, water flows out the vents when the bags are full. My understanding is, with the reversible pumps and no vents, you have to monitor so bags and fittings don't get damaged from overpressure. Both methods have their pros and cons, what's best depends on how you use your boat.

[BlitzedVLX]

So where in the boat would I go about connecting the reversible pump in order to fill/drain? Would I run a line from the w711 to the mid tank? I believe I have wiring in the bow for ballast so that is where I would hook my power but I am not sure where to tie in to fill and drain.

Edited May 17, 2012 by BlitzedVLX

[Nitrousbird]

Last season I automated the surf ballast on the rear lockers of my Vlx. It mirrors the stock system, fill and drain pumps, vented loops, vent and drain flow paths, etc. I did the work myself, but it ended up quite expensive anyway. In that respect, the reversible pumps would have been a better and more efficient way to go. The reason I chose the aerator pumps was that I wanted a fail safe system for when the wife and kids take the boat out (I work weekends sometimes). With the current setup, water flows out the vents when the bags are full. My understanding is, with the reversible pumps and no vents, you have to monitor so bags and fittings don't get damaged from overpressure. Both methods have their pros and cons, what's best depends on how you use your boat.

You vent a reversible pump in the same way you vent an aerator pump. When the bag is full, it starts dumping over the side. For draining, it can either drain out the bottom (method I use), or you can also plumb it to drain out the side as well. It is easy to tell when it is done draining as the pump makes a different sound.

[Dexter]

You vent a reversible pump in the same way you vent an aerator pump. When the bag is full, it starts dumping over the side. For draining, it can either drain out the bottom (method I use), or you can also plumb it to drain out the side as well. It is easy to tell when it is done draining as the pump makes a different sound.

That would bring the two methods even closer to one another making cost a bigger factor. I've read in the forums here that the reversible pumps drain the bags very well, where my aerator pumps seem to always leave some water in the bags. Not enough to be a problem for me though.

So where in the boat would I go about connecting the reversible pump in order to fill/drain? Would I run a line from the w711 to the mid tank? I believe I have wiring in the bow for ballast so that is where I would hook my power but I am not sure where to tie in to fill and drain.

Your boat should have two extra through hull fittings with t-handles. One should be underneath the engine and one between the center balast and the gas tanks. The way Nitrous installed his by the v-drive is probably the best place to mount those pumps, in which case you can use the rear through hull fitting. You could mount the pump in the front wall in the battery/amp compartment if you wanted to use the front through hull fitting. That wouldn't be easily accessible though if you needed to change the impeller.

You'll certainly get something in return for your investment, but honestly I don't know how much. You might consider installing the stock bow tank if that's possible for your boat. There are members here who have done it. It'll probably cost a little more, but you'll get almost twice the weight. Just some thoughts.

[BlitzedVLX]

Awesome thanks for the reply dexter. If I mounted the pump in the vdrive compartment and attached to the t-handle in the rear I would just need to run a 1' line back from the bag in the bow correct? I already have the bag and pump purchased. What else will need to get this connected to the t-handle? Would 10' of ballast hose be enough to go from the front to the back? My mux already has an option for the front ballast so I should be able to just wire into that?

[catcando]

You might want to break out a calculator again and make sure you have all of your parts.

I'm going to exclude all the parts that will be the same as an impellar pump (such as the ball valve, feed line to the bag, vent line, wiring for 1 pump, etc.).

But here are the extras you will need:

- 1 vented loop for the fill line (impellar pumps don't need these...aerator pumps do unless you like the danger of auto-filling your bags). $28

- 3 additional barb fitings (for 2 drain pumps). $12

- 1 Y-adapter for one drain bag to utilize the thru hull for the vent line (this is the cheaper/easier route). $5

- 1 additional thru hull for the other drain pump that isn't utilizing the vent line: $13

- 1 check valve for that drain pump thru hull: $14

- 10 additional hose clamps: $5

- Additional screw-on barb fittings to attach to drain pumps: $13

- At least another 10' of hose: $10

- At least another 20' in wiring: $15

So all the extra parts that you will need to do the same thing one impellar pump does: $115.

$115 + $78 in the 3 pumps = $193. That's more than the cost of the impellar pump, all the while having a far more complicated system, far longer/harder install, drilling an extra thru-hull for the 2nd drain pump, and having a system guaranteed to be less reliable with far more points of failure. So your money saved in the cheap pumps is more than offset by the costs to make those pumps actually work.

No loop as I used a check valve. I like the valve over the loop. I used (and alotted for cost) the wakemakers pump to bag fitting and then the supplied barb fitting that came with the Tsunami pump. No vent line used on my boat. I found the vents syphoning and removed all of them. Once filled I burp the bag and never look back. My boat does spend weeks at a dock so... The bags when full WILL push past the aerator pump to purge the excess pressure. I also plumbed the Y of both drain pumps to the drain thru hole existing.

Sorry I didn't add the hose clamps to my calculations last time.

Since we're on the topic of pumps, how is it to maintain/winterize the reversibles?

Edited May 17, 2012 by catcando

[Dexter]

Awesome thanks for the reply dexter. If I mounted the pump in the vdrive compartment and attached to the t-handle in the rear I would just need to run a 1' line back from the bag in the bow correct? I already have the bag and pump purchased. What else will need to get this connected to the t-handle? Would 10' of ballast hose be enough to go from the front to the back? My mux already has an option for the front ballast so I should be able to just wire into that?

I would use a 90 degree fitting, a ball valve for isolation, and a barbed fitting for the hose (similar to the cooling water hose on the other side of the engine). I'd also buy more hose than needed just in case. Don't know about the switches on the '08, but it sounds right. Good luck with it.

[Nitrousbird]

No loop as I used a check valve. I like the valve over the loop. I used (and alotted for cost) the wakemakers pump to bag fitting and then the supplied barb fitting that came with the Tsunami pump. No vent line used on my boat. I found the vents syphoning and removed all of them. Once filled I burp the bag and never look back. My boat does spend weeks at a dock so... The bags when full WILL push past the aerator pump to purge the excess pressure. I also plumbed the Y of both drain pumps to the drain thru hole existing.

Sorry I didn't add the hose clamps to my calculations last time.

Since we're on the topic of pumps, how is it to maintain/winterize the reversibles?

So if you use a check valve instead of a loop, that's another $14 instead of $28. That brings your total cost down $39...just a little less than an impellar setup; but still a lot more points of failure, space used, and labor time.

As for pump winterization, you just pull the screws off the bottom of the pump. You can probably just pull the output hose, fill it with RV antifreeze and run the pump in dump mode and that would also work; pretty easy either way. As for maintenance, if flow gets bad just swap out the impellar with a Jabsco green impellar.