Vapor lock? Dead on the water for an hour today

[xx29l9]

The plot thickens?

Tech pulled codes today and they are all low voltage related. Now I KNOW my batteries are good because (a) they are new and (b) I've checked 'em with a multimeter. So tech calls indmar and indmar suggests that Malibu cheaped out on the wire runs between the engine and observers compartment and that the wire isn't thick enough to provide all the necessary current to crank the starter AND power the ECM. As a test, indmar suggested wiring my second battery to the starter and take the boat out for the day and see how it does.

Hmmmm.... I don't know. The problem with that theory is why does the boat do better cold than warm? Not sure I completely buy it, but it would sure be a simple (if slightly pricey) fix to run 2/0 to the observers compartment.

I did find one other post where the poster said that that was the fix that malibu had suggested, but he never posted back whether it actually worked or not.

This could be an interesting path...I've seen the same type of starting issues in friends cars I've helped work on. Heat is an enemy of electrons moving from a battery to an electrical load. Heavier gauge wire has fixed this type of issue before. Not sure if it's your problem, but it does sound suspicious. I say go with the test of hooking the second battery to the starter and see how it behaves.

[shawndoggy]

This could be an interesting path...I've seen the same type of starting issues in friends cars I've helped work on. Heat is an enemy of electrons moving from a battery to an electrical load. Heavier gauge wire has fixed this type of issue before. Not sure if it's your problem, but it does sound suspicious. I say go with the test of hooking the second battery to the starter and see how it behaves.

Definitely going to try it. But I'm hedging by bringing my newly acquired fuel pressure gauge and my spark tester too.

[xx29l9]

Definitely going to try it. But I'm hedging by bringing my newly acquired fuel pressure gauge and my spark tester too.

Absolutely. And a multi-meter. Just curious, does the ECM get warm when your having troubles? My friends MC had all kinds of starting and running issues at warmer temps... ended up being a flaky computer control module.

[scfdfireman]

You would think that if it was a physical issue like a wire being too small, it would develop consistent symptoms. My 06 had the same symptoms as yours, but it would happen at various times during the day with no consistency. After 2-3 20 second cranking attempts it would finally start and put out a bit of rich exhaust and then run fine for an hour or so. I don't know where the ECM is located, but I'd be interested in feeling it to see if it was getting hot. As far as vapor lock goes, it takes quite a bit of heat to vaporize gas under pressure and inside rubber lines. My boat runs cool at about 160 degrees and most cars/trucks now run (with a 195 thermostat) at 210 and vapor lock in them is never heard of. Keep us posted...

[shawndoggy]

You would think that if it was a physical issue like a wire being too small, it would develop consistent symptoms. My 06 had the same symptoms as yours, but it would happen at various times during the day with no consistency. After 2-3 20 second cranking attempts it would finally start and put out a bit of rich exhaust and then run fine for an hour or so. I don't know where the ECM is located, but I'd be interested in feeling it to see if it was getting hot. As far as vapor lock goes, it takes quite a bit of heat to vaporize gas under pressure and inside rubber lines. My boat runs cool at about 160 degrees and most cars/trucks now run (with a 195 thermostat) at 210 and vapor lock in them is never heard of. Keep us posted...

I've got my suspicions too. And I really don't think it's vapor lock with the installation of the secondary fuel pump.

Boat vs. car... yes the motors run at different temps, but we're talking about how hot the fuel lines get, not how hot the motors run. Boat motors run a cool stream of lake water while cars carry their own closed cooling... so the motors run hotter. But ventilation within the hotter running auto engine compartment is actually quite good, especially if you are moving. so they don't translate exactly. Could be that the boat's engine compartment is getting hot enough to make the ECU or ICM act weird. Will definitely check on those on Sunday on the water.

I'm hoping it is "that simple." Would be a sweet fix. I'm not usually that lucky tho.

[shawndoggy]

Wouldn't you know it... after hooking my second battery right to the starter and the ground on the block like my tech suggested, the boat started like a champ almost instantly every time. In fact better than it ever has. must have started and restarted 50 times today. Fired at the first key up every single time. My wife said she even forgot about the problem (me... I still said my silent prayer before cranking).

So now it's time to go get some 2/0 to replace the 2awg that malibu ran in the boat.

My theory on why it's gotten worse lately? I added the add-a-battery switch, which extends the runs another couple of feet. Probably just enough to be the difference between the absolute limit of just right and too far.

[DONTW8]

To keep the cost down you could run an additional 2 AWG in parallel with your existing 2. If you have room to do this of course. 0 or 00 guage wire is spendy.

So if @ AWG carries 100 amps then you could carry 200 with a redundant parallel. Remember you have to run an additional 2 AWG on the Negative side to the battery as well

ampacity:

http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity

[shawndoggy]

To keep the cost down you could run an additional 2 AWG in parallel with your existing 2. If you have room to do this of course. 0 or 00 guage wire is spendy.

So if @ AWG carries 100 amps then you could carry 200 with a redundant parallel. Remember you have to run an additional 2 AWG on the Negative side to the battery as well

ampacity:

http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity

Good point. My tech, Jeff at Ultimate Marine here in Reno, suggested another option... leave the starting battery back in the vdrive locker, separating it with a simple perko on off switch, and then adding a third battery up in the observers compartment as a backup. Would probably be cheaper than buying the 2/0 to run back and forth up to the observers compartment.

[scfdfireman]

This wire thing has been bugging me all day... We have (had) a problem that few other owners experience. When Malibu builds these boats I'm sure they use the same style /type wiring harness for the same model year if not for multiple model years / models and that's quite a few boats. Then again, there's only a few of us with the problem. If the problem was something like the wire size then common sense would have it that it would be prevalent among many owners. Do you think that when you hooked up the new wire you may have moved the harness at the ECM solving the problem? Anyway, I'm glad that your BU is running better... Please let us know what you end up doing to solve it permanently and if it ever resurfaces.

[sgtsandbagger]

I've gone through a couple of fuel pumps already on my 2006 Monsoon. I'm wondering about using an additional vapor lock pump like skidim has our maybe a different pump all together like this one My link

[shawndoggy]

Thought I'd post a quick happy ending... the voltage / third battery kludgy fix does seem to be the solution for my problem. Just spent a week at lake shasta. Boat started flawlessly every time. Trip was fantastic. Man do I wish we could have stayed for a second week!

[martinarcher]

Awesome. Glad it's still starting easy!

That an underwater pic?

[shawndoggy]

Big load off for sure. Definitely a marriage tester this boating thing.

Yeah a shot from the gopro...

[martinarcher]

Big load off for sure. Definitely a marriage tester this boating thing.

Yeah a shot from the gopro...

No doubt.

[shawndoggy]

One last postscript to this thread. Last season, DONTW8 suggested doing a second run of 2awg instead of pulling my existing wire and rerunning 0/2. Well just wanted to report that over the winter I did just that, and in three outings this season, it seems to have done the trick.

[smithouse5]

One last postscript to this thread. Last season, DONTW8 suggested doing a second run of 2awg instead of pulling my existing wire and rerunning 0/2. Well just wanted to report that over the winter I did just that, and in three outings this season, it seems to have done the trick.

shawndoggy - just wanted to send you a huge thanks. This thread helped me figure out my hot start issues and single handedly saved a week long family vacation to the tahoe keys. After looking into the cost of re-running a 0/2, I'm also leaning towards running a 2awg in parallel. Right now I have an SLA battery wired directly to the starter as a short term fix.

Thanks again.

[Bozboat]

Thought I'd post a quick happy ending... the voltage / third battery kludgy fix does seem to be the solution for my problem. Just spent a week at lake shasta. Boat started flawlessly every time. Trip was fantastic. Man do I wish we could have stayed for a second week!

Thought I'd post a quick happy ending... the voltage / third battery kludgy fix does seem to be the solution for my problem. Just spent a week at lake shasta. Boat started flawlessly every time. Trip was fantastic. Man do I wish we could have stayed for a second week!

Ok, I am waiting for some of your most excellent annual shasta vacation photos....................................................this one is cool, but not up to the high bar you have set in the past

Edited August 14, 2013 by Bozboat

[shawndoggy]

Thought I'd post a quick happy ending... the voltage / third battery kludgy fix does seem to be the solution for my problem. Just spent a week at lake shasta. Boat started flawlessly every time. Trip was fantastic. Man do I wish we could have stayed for a second week!

Thought I'd post a quick happy ending... the voltage / third battery kludgy fix does seem to be the solution for my problem. Just spent a week at lake shasta. Boat started flawlessly every time. Trip was fantastic. Man do I wish we could have stayed for a second week!

Ok, I am waiting for some of your most excellent annual shasta vacation photos....................................................this one is cool, but not up to the high bar you have set in the past

Yeah but you just quoted me from the way way back machine... 2010! Sucky cameras back then!

Glad my pain and suffering helped somebody else. I know that this thread has helped a few folks.

[Bill_AirJunky]

Funny that this thread has come back up after like 3 years.

Really bizarre thing is that I was out riding last night. Had a good run, sticking lots of tricks. A friend of mine was out there with his girlfriend & another guy. We did a number of fly-bys & I was nailing air rolls & front rolls right near them. Everytime I'd hear them sqealing & loving it..... well, Suzie was squealing. Anyway, after I got done, I stopped right by them. Come to find out the 3rd guy is Kell from the MC Team Talk site. I guess he & I diagnosed his hot start issues on his old MC Maristar like 11 YEARS AGO! I had just had the issue on my Prostar 205 & the things I learned there, helped him get past it on his own boat!

Crazy how small a world it is.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Bill_AirJunky

[AZRhino]

I came across this old post about when searching for vapor lock solutions on the site and almost started crying tears of joy.  I have been having the same problem on my '06 LSV intermittently, which highly sucks because I am always afraid to shut the engine off when we are sitting for awhile after we have been running.  Anyway, I read this whole post and it sounds essentially like my problem.  I was thinking vapor lock too, but it runs like a champ once I get it started and it has never once sputtered or stalled once it is going (and I live on the surface of the sun).  The problem is only that it is hard to start when it has been sitting after it is hot, but it is good to go once I get it to catch (i.e. it will crank but not fire up for some time, and then will finally fire up after a variable amount of time).

In reading the post, I am not 100% clear on what you did to finally resolve the issue.  So, just to make sure, rewiring from the batteries to the starter solved your issue?  Did you run the 0/2 wire, or just run the smaller gauge in parallel?  Or just use the third battery?  I am not exactly a master electrician (kinda the opposite), so any description you can give me as to what ultimately worked would be very much appreciated.  Any other thoughts from anyone else with similar issues would also be appreciated.  Thanks for your time and your help, your headaches have saved (hopefully) yet another poor soul.

[DUKENO1]

Hi there...just fixed this issue on my '06.  I guess to be sure if yours is having the same issue would need to know if pouring some cool water directly on the fuel pump fixes the issue?  Mine would start after sitting for 30 minutes or more on a hot day but would sputter and stall.  A bottle of cold water poured over my fuel pump would immediately get it to start up and run like a top.  If you have that then I would say its 99.9% a vapor lock issue.  If so a supplemental low pressure fuel pump added in-line between the tank and fuel filter should cure you. 

check out

 

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, AZRhino said:

I came across this old post about when searching for vapor lock solutions on the site and almost started crying tears of joy.  I have been having the same problem on my '06 LSV intermittently, which highly sucks because I am always afraid to shut the engine off when we are sitting for awhile after we have been running.  Anyway, I read this whole post and it sounds essentially like my problem.  I was thinking vapor lock too, but it runs like a champ once I get it started and it has never once sputtered or stalled once it is going (and I live on the surface of the sun).  The problem is only that it is hard to start when it has been sitting after it is hot, but it is good to go once I get it to catch (i.e. it will crank but not fire up for some time, and then will finally fire up after a variable amount of time).

In reading the post, I am not 100% clear on what you did to finally resolve the issue.  So, just to make sure, rewiring from the batteries to the starter solved your issue?  Did you run the 0/2 wire, or just run the smaller gauge in parallel?  Or just use the third battery?  I am not exactly a master electrician (kinda the opposite), so any description you can give me as to what ultimately worked would be very much appreciated.  Any other thoughts from anyone else with similar issues would also be appreciated.  Thanks for your time and your help, your headaches have saved (hopefully) yet another poor soul.

Baseline question: how old are your batteries, and are they known to be fully charged when you start the day? Also, are all battery cable connections clean (recently sanded or hit with a wire brush) and tight? 

So the test solution was to move a battery to the rear locker and connect directly to the starter (+) and the block (-).  That battery will be "hot" (i.e. always on) unless you put a switch inline on the cable you are connecting to the starter.  That's certainly OK for testing purposes, but not ideal long term.

If your crank but no fire symptoms go away, then you've proven the concept in your case.  

What I did was run another run of 2awg in parallel to ground and the starter.  IIRC 2x 2awg = 0 awg.  What I would do now is just pull both 2awg wires and replace with 00, like they do now at the factory.  

18 minutes ago, DUKENO1 said:

 Mine would start after sitting for 30 minutes or more on a hot day but would sputter and stall. 

This is a great point.  If the boat sputters at runs rough, it may not be the bad power cable issue.  On the other hand, if the boat runs like a champ once it finally starts, and your boat is a 2006, then the power and ground wire issue diagnosed in this thread may be your jam. <--- again, the easy test is to relocate a battery to the rear locker and wire it straight to the starter and the block and run it like that for a day and see if the issue goes away.  In a pinch, I'd even consider pirating the battery out of your wife's car.

Edited August 3, 2021 by shawndoggy

[AZRhino]

Thank you shawndoggy and DUKENO1 for the responses.  When boat was last serviced, batteries were strong and the hard start never happens when the boat is cold.  So, I don't think it is a battery issue, but I will double check that as well.  I will do some more diagnostics to completely rule out vapor lock (cold water on fuel pump), and then try to direct wire the battery to the starter to verify that it is the electrical problem.  For my own safety, I will NOT use the wife's battery.    I'll try to repost on this sting once I get it definitively determined.  Thanks again.