Vapor lock? Dead on the water for an hour today

[shawndoggy]

My 06 did the same thing as yours has been doing, but fortunately it was under warranty then. The dealer focused on the same fuel related issues as you have been and got the same poor results. Finally they figured out it was the "computer" and changed it out and the problem hasn't resurfaced for a couple of seasons. When I get home, I'll see if I can find the repair slip and see if there's any more info on it.

Thanks, I'd really appreciate it. Don't want to tell the dealer, but right now I don't care how much it costs, I just want it FIXED.

[WakeGirl]

Shawn,

Are you hearing any noise or anything from the pump itself? Usually pump issues aren't sporadic, but you never know. Have you checked the fuel pressure? *I think* that there may be a fuel pressure regulator too, if so that may be something to check out. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

[shawndoggy]

Shawn,

Are you hearing any noise or anything from the pump itself? Usually pump issues aren't sporadic, but you never know. Have you checked the fuel pressure? *I think* that there may be a fuel pressure regulator too, if so that may be something to check out. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

Yes, the pump (well, now BOTH pumps) do cycle on keyup. Had pressure checked, and it holds 50+ psi at the rail on key-up. I'm pretty sure the regulator is part of the high pressure fuel pump on the 06, but I don't think that's my issue because I'm holding pressure at key up (not started on a cold engine in the shop.... not on the lake).

The main pump sounds fine and I know what it sounds like if it's starved for fuel or sucking too hard (the high pitched whistle / squeak). It doesn't sound like that.

Keep the thoughts coming though... it's good to confirm what I have and have not looked at.

[WakeGirl]

Sometimes if a pump is on its way out, it will begin to make noise even if it's getting plenty of fuel. Usually it's a more consistent problem though, not something that is just sporadic. Besides noise/whine, you'll see an overall decrease in performance, particularly at higher rpms, & it's not generally something that comes & goes like you're experiencing. But if you know that your fuel pressure is good (at idle & at speed), then that's probably not it.

This almost sounds like it could be an issue with spark.

[shawndoggy]

Sometimes if a pump is on its way out, it will begin to make noise even if it's getting plenty of fuel. Usually it's a more consistent problem though, not something that is just sporadic. Besides noise/whine, you'll see an overall decrease in performance, particularly at higher rpms, & it's not generally something that comes & goes like you're experiencing. But if you know that your fuel pressure is good (at idle & at speed), then that's probably not it.

This almost sounds like it could be an issue with spark.

Agree re spark, but I'm sortof thinking ECM. Reason being that once it's started, it runs fine. No hesitation, rough idle, missing at speed... none of that. Once it's started, I'm good. It's as if something isn't letting the motor start, or possibly is causing an improper fuel mixture at startup?

[WakeGirl]

I've had cars in my past that, well let's just say that they weren't the most reliable. I had one vehicle that after it would heat up, would start having problems similar to what you're describing & it turned out that it was a temperamental relay that didn't show any problems until it got warm. It came down to an electrical connection that would sporadically lose connection after it got warm. That was a particularly frustrating problem to troubleshoot. I was 16 at the time & my dad was not happy. Anyway, the point of that rambling story is that sometimes an electrical issue can be sporadic like that.

Have you had the ecm checked for codes? I would hope that an issue like this would throw a code that you could work from.

[shawndoggy]

It's back in the shop this week for code pull and hopefully a water test (sucks living in the desert for that because we're 45 minutes from ANY water to put the boat into, so I need to make my tech burn up half a day).

[Lance B. Johnson]

never heard of fuel injection and an electric pump vapor locking.

Stick around here a little longer....when things get hotter. I have seen quite a few posts over it.

The difference between a fuel injected car and fuel injected boat is that in the car the fuel pump is submersed in the fuel. Makes all the difference in the world.

[WakeGirl]

Stick around here a little longer....when things get hotter. I have seen quite a few posts over it.

The difference between a fuel injected car and fuel injected boat is that in the car the fuel pump is submersed in the fuel. Makes all the difference in the world.

Exactly. This has really shown to be a problem since the ethanol mandate.

[Lance B. Johnson]

Shawn,

If I were in your shoes I would have a fuel pressure gauge and some sort of a spark tester handy. I would go out for a day on the lake and pray that it actually won't start sometime during the day....

Do the fuel pressure test and the spark test during the "cranks but won't start" symptom. This should get you started down the right path.

To take it a step further I would have a multimeter handy and test for voltage at the fuel pump to determine if it is an electrical issue like wakegirl mentioned.

By the sounds of it I am going to say fuel related.

Can this problem be tied to the hot soak every time?

[WakeGirl]

You get a rep point for that, good advice IMO.

I think that I'd take it one step further & recommend taking a fuel pressure reading when it's running good, just to try to get a baseline.

[shawndoggy]

Shawn,

If I were in your shoes I would have a fuel pressure gauge and some sort of a spark tester handy. I would go out for a day on the lake and pray that it actually won't start sometime during the day....

Do the fuel pressure test and the spark test during the "cranks but won't start" symptom. This should get you started down the right path.

To take it a step further I would have a multimeter handy and test for voltage at the fuel pump to determine if it is an electrical issue like wakegirl mentioned.

By the sounds of it I am going to say fuel related.

Can this problem be tied to the hot soak every time?

LOL, I'm a desk jockey... if I buy a fuel pressure gauge this will be the only time I ever use it! (though your theory makes perfect sense). I'm lazy and want someone to "just fix it."

As for whether it's only related to hot soak, I guess I'd want to define "hot soak" first. To my mind that means a hard(ish) run, and subsequent extended shutdown. Yes, it will hard start in every case then.

My local tech advised after a hard run to let the boat sit in neutral for a few minutes at 1000ish rpms (i.e. pull neutral plug and rev it a hair) in order to flush more cool water through before shutting down. We tried that several times yesterday and it seemed to make no difference (still hard to start after sitting, even if only sitting for a few minutes).

Of course to add insult to injury my blower also died yesterday, so that could also play a role in yesterday's performance.

So yesterday, it was hard starting after it was warm. There wasn't a shut-down or restart protocol that seemed better or worse. Even if only shut down for 2 minutes it would have issues.

Once started it runs great, right from the initial fire. There is never a stumbling or fuel starved idle like I've read about in other vapor lock scenarios. If it starts, it runs great.

EDIT: That said, I can follow a script. Spark test = remove plug wire, put near block, confirm arcing? Fuel pressure test = just see what pressure is during hard starting symptoms? Multimeter = just hook to live wire to see if the voltage does anything weird?

Edited June 7, 2010 by shawndoggy

[Bill_AirJunky]

If you can't find a mechanic who will loan you a fuel pressure gauge, then cheapies are available at HF for $16. As I understand it, this is the kind of tool you can install in the boat in your garage, and leave it in there. Run the boat & check the guage periodically.

The gauge itself will have a glass face, but you should be able to protect it fairly easy.

They have spark testerstoo but I'm not sure I'd use one on a boat.

[shawndoggy]

If you can't find a mechanic who will loan you a fuel pressure gauge, then cheapies are available at HF for $16. As I understand it, this is the kind of tool you can install in the boat in your garage, and leave it in there. Run the boat & check the guage periodically.

The gauge itself will have a glass face, but you should be able to protect it fairly easy.

They have spark testerstoo but I'm not sure I'd use one on a boat.

Thx bill, looks like I know where I'm stopping on the way home. That same fuel pressure gauge is all over ebay, but hey if I can save shipping and have it now....

[Lance B. Johnson]

LOL, I'm a desk jockey... if I buy a fuel pressure gauge this will be the only time I ever use it! (though your theory makes perfect sense). I'm lazy and want someone to "just fix it."

As for whether it's only related to hot soak, I guess I'd want to define "hot soak" first. To my mind that means a hard(ish) run, and subsequent extended shutdown. Yes, it will hard start in every case then.

My local tech advised after a hard run to let the boat sit in neutral for a few minutes at 1000ish rpms (i.e. pull neutral plug and rev it a hair) in order to flush more cool water through before shutting down. We tried that several times yesterday and it seemed to make no difference (still hard to start after sitting, even if only sitting for a few minutes).

Of course to add insult to injury my blower also died yesterday, so that could also play a role in yesterday's performance.

So yesterday, it was hard starting after it was warm. There wasn't a shut-down or restart protocol that seemed better or worse. Even if only shut down for 2 minutes it would have issues.

Once started it runs great, right from the initial fire. There is never a stumbling or fuel starved idle like I've read about in other vapor lock scenarios. If it starts, it runs great.

EDIT: That said, I can follow a script. Spark test = remove plug wire, put near block, confirm arcing? Fuel pressure test = just see what pressure is during hard starting symptoms? Multimeter = just hook to live wire to see if the voltage does anything weird?

You pretty much have it....don't let bill scare ya too much though . MAKE SURE THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT IS WELL VENTILATED and it won't be an issue. You might have to stick a screwdriver or something in the plug wire to confirm arcing.

it does sound like a hot soak issue.....can you get it to fire every time with the starting fluid? and then does it keep running? Black smoke or fuel smell on start up?

Edited June 7, 2010 by Ruffdog

[shawndoggy]

You pretty much have it....don't let bill scare ya too much though . MAKE SURE THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT IS WELL VENTILATED and it won't be an issue. You might have to stick a screwdriver or something in the plug wire to confirm arcing.

it does sound like a hot soak issue.....can you get it to fire every time with the starting fluid? and then does it keep running?

With the installation of the secondary fuel pump, I didn't need to use starting fluid this past weekend, and it did start every time.

At the ramp when cold: turn key, "VROOOOM."

After 10 minutes of running to good water and 10 minute stop: turn key, crank crank crank crank "VROOOM."

After stop for 10 minutes after 20 minute wakeboard set: turn key, crank crank crank ... nothing. Then turn key on and off at five second intervals (listening for fuel pump to prime). Turn key on fourth prime... "VROOM."

After 40 minute cruise in no wake zone up the lake, turn key, nothing, do key on key off, nothing, crack throttle and cross fingers... "VROOOM." There might have been some swearing in there that I forgot about.

Once fully warmed up, we were worried about turning the boat off as the wind came up because the warmer it got, the harder it was to start.

Once started, it stays running and runs great. Nice big american v8 loping 650rpm idle up to screaming at 4800rpm. No hesitation, missing, surges, etc., once it's running.

Buddy in adjacent boat reported some smoke on startup. I did not see it. Wasn't a huge cloud or anything.

Edited June 7, 2010 by shawndoggy

[Lance B. Johnson]

With the installation of the secondary fuel pump, I didn't need to use starting fluid this past weekend, and it did start every time.

At the ramp when cold: turn key, "VROOOOM."

After 10 minutes of running to good water and 10 minute stop: turn key, crank crank crank crank "VROOOM."

After stop for 10 minutes after 20 minute wakeboard set: turn key, crank crank crank ... nothing. Then turn key on and off at five second intervals (listening for fuel pump to prime). Turn key on fourth prime... "VROOM."

After 40 minute cruise in no wake zone up the lake, turn key, nothing, do key on key off, nothing, crack throttle and cross fingers... "VROOOM." There might have been some swearing in there that I forgot about.

Once fully warmed up, we were worried about turning the boat off as the wind came up because the warmer it got, the harder it was to start.

Once started, it stays running and runs great. Nice big american v8 loping 650rpm idle up to screaming at 4800rpm. No hesitation, missing, surges, etc., once it's running.

Buddy in adjacent boat reported some smoke on startup. I did not see it. Wasn't a huge cloud or anything.

Ya I would just have to say check it with the fuel pressure gauge when you have the symptom. BTW--fuel pump should hold residual pressure and not bleed down between start ups. Another thing to keep an eye on.

[shawndoggy]

Ya I would just have to say check it with the fuel pressure gauge when you have the symptom. BTW--fuel pump should hold residual pressure and not bleed down between start ups. Another thing to keep an eye on.

In the shop last week my tech showed me... at keyup it would go to 55-60, and hold 50+. Slight bleed down, but very slight. didn't sit and watch the gauge for more than 40 seconds or so, but seemed rock solid then (of course boat was cold and not running).

Buddy confirms he saw puff of white smoke on one of the cracked-throttle-extended-crank starts.

[Lance B. Johnson]

You get a rep point for that, good advice IMO.

I think that I'd take it one step further & recommend taking a fuel pressure reading when it's running good, just to try to get a baseline.

Thanks, Just trying to help my good buddy shawn....never know when I will be passing through

[Bill_AirJunky]

After 40 minute cruise in no wake zone up the lake, turn key, nothing, do key on key off, nothing, crack throttle and cross fingers... "VROOOM." There might have been some swearing in there that I forgot about.

This is weird. Possibly a short in the neutral safety switch or the dead man switch?

[shawndoggy]

This is weird. Possibly a short in the neutral safety switch or the dead man switch?

Sorry, to be clear, by "nothing" I meant lots of cranking and no starting. I get gauges and boat cranks. So lanyard is OK. Neutral switch is OK too cuz it wouldn't turn over when I cracked throttle but forgot to pull neutral pin (oops ) but would turn over when pin was properly pulled with cracked throttle.

[Bill_AirJunky]

Sorry, to be clear, by "nothing" I meant lots of cranking and no starting. I get gauges and boat cranks. So lanyard is OK. Neutral switch is OK too cuz it wouldn't turn over when I cracked throttle but forgot to pull neutral pin (oops ) but would turn over when pin was properly pulled with cracked throttle.

OK, makes more sense.

Keeps on sounding like vapor lock. Hopefully checking fuel pressure at various times will reveal something.

That spark tester should work fine in this situation. Just need to be sure that you have aired things out well anytime you start it with that installed. Likewise, you will need to open things up whenever you test with a screwdriver too. Will be a helluva reach down there too. Might be easier to just have to look down there & see if the test light is flashing.

Trace the fuel lines from the EFI across the engine to wherever it goes. How close is it to the engine? And think about how you can get some insulation around the fuel line to protect it from the engine heat.

[shawndoggy]

The plot thickens?

Tech pulled codes today and they are all low voltage related. Now I KNOW my batteries are good because (a) they are new and (b) I've checked 'em with a multimeter. So tech calls indmar and indmar suggests that Malibu cheaped out on the wire runs between the engine and observers compartment and that the wire isn't thick enough to provide all the necessary current to crank the starter AND power the ECM. As a test, indmar suggested wiring my second battery to the starter and take the boat out for the day and see how it does.

Hmmmm.... I don't know. The problem with that theory is why does the boat do better cold than warm? Not sure I completely buy it, but it would sure be a simple (if slightly pricey) fix to run 2/0 to the observers compartment.

I did find one other post where the poster said that that was the fix that malibu had suggested, but he never posted back whether it actually worked or not.

[JasonK]

Is there a choke mechanism that could be bad? I'm not sure about EFI motors.

[Bill_AirJunky]

Is there a choke mechanism that could be bad? I'm not sure about EFI motors.

Choke is computer controlled.... it adjusts the air/fuel mixture based on things like engine temp & air temp.

Actually, thats roughly how it works on a car engine. I read somewhere that boat engines have far less sensors installed. So it's just computer controlled based on whatever program they have installed. Which adds some credibility to what Indmar just recommended to SD.

Hope it does you some good, dog!

Edited June 11, 2010 by Bill_AirJunky