1994 Echelon

[nuttyskier2002]

Switched #8 injector again today and nothing different. Still getting fuel out of the #8 Cylinder when the engine cranks. I did finish checking compression on all cylinders and all are with in 160 to 170 range. I don't think it is a head gasket or crack anywhere but not really sure where to go from here. I checked the fuel regulator with my air hose and it was opening around 40-45 psi. Begining to get a little frustated. Any one have any ideas.

If you pull all 8 spark plugs and spin the engine over are you still getting raw fuel out of just #8?

[bskiball]

Yes. Even when I disconnect the electronics to the injectors and the high pressure fuel pump disconnected, fuel still comes out of #8 and no other cylinder.

[martinarcher]

Yes. Even when I disconnect the electronics to the injectors and the high pressure fuel pump disconnected, fuel still comes out of #8 and no other cylinder.

Boy that is a weird one. Is the block drained of water? It might be worth draining the block of all the water and then repeating the test (all 8 plugs out and the injectors disconnected and the fuel pump disconnected). This will verify it's not a water passage leak that's causing the excess fluid in the cylinder. Even if water mixes with fuel it can certainly fool you (gas really is strong stuff and will make water smell pretty strong in a hurry).

Good luck and keep your chin up. I know how frustrating looking for engine problems can be. Been there, pulled a few hairs!

[nuttyskier2002]

Yes. Even when I disconnect the electronics to the injectors and the high pressure fuel pump disconnected, fuel still comes out of #8 and no other cylinder.

Fuel pump disconnected,.... electrically or plumbing? Martin has a very good point. Verify it cannot be water. Also, pull your dipstick and see if it smells like fuel. If you are getting than much fuel in one cylinder it's going to find its way into the oilpan.

[bskiball]

Drained block as suggested and put mystery fluid is glass beaker but it just kept comming out. I took my air hose in plug hole and blew to see if i could hear anything and noticed that the #8 intake port is on the opposite side of the motor (DUH) and that intake port is where the vent for the high pressure fuel pump is. So I disconected vent hose put it in a can and cranked motor over. gas was pouring out of the vent hose. Therefore I have a fuel pump issue and it is just venting right into cylinder #8 intake. Anyone know what I have to do to rebuild or fix this issue. My wife is coming home and I have not finish my chores so I have stop being a mechanic for the night. Big sigh of relief though, I think we've solved it... or we're about too.

[Pistol Pete]

the vent for the high pressure fuel pump

I can't seem to picture what this might be. Can you take a pic.?

[bskiball]

I may be calling it the wrong thing. The book called it a vapor seperator. It is on the top rear of the passanger side with an inlet for fuel from the mechanical pump, outlet to fuel rail, inlet (return from fuel rail), vent into #8 cylinder intake. I'll try to take a picture tomarrow. Not sure how to post pictures though.

[nuttyskier2002]

I may be calling it the wrong thing. The book called it a vapor seperator. It is on the top rear of the passanger side with an inlet for fuel from the mechanical pump, outlet to fuel rail, inlet (return from fuel rail), vent into #8 cylinder intake. I'll try to take a picture tomarrow. Not sure how to post pictures though.

It sounds like you are describing the fuel pressure regulator. Maybe it also functions as a vapor separator. The pressure regulator gets a vacuum signal from the intake to vary the rail pressure. It kinda makes sense now. It must have ruptured internally (the diaphram in the regulator) and fuel is being forced into the vacuum source. I saw on go bad on a 2000 Ski Centurion with Merc engine.

[nuttyskier2002]

I may be calling it the wrong thing. The book called it a vapor seperator. It is on the top rear of the passanger side with an inlet for fuel from the mechanical pump, outlet to fuel rail, inlet (return from fuel rail), vent into #8 cylinder intake. I'll try to take a picture tomarrow. Not sure how to post pictures though.

Okay, I just looked at the parts brake down for this setup. The fuel vapor tank system was used on '94 to '96 454 Mercs as well as the '93 to '95 502's. It's not the same part as the regulator but it does feed the fuel rail through a casister fuel filter and hose. The fuel regular is mounted under the fuel rail toward the back of the engine.

The job of this device as close as I can determine by what little is posted about it is to prevent vapot lock. The route that the fuel travels through this thing is supposed to separate the liquid fuel from the vapor. The liquid is supposed to travel back to the fuel rail via the filter. The vapor I'm guessing is what gets routed to the port that is tied to your #8 cylinder. There is a spring loaded valve inside that is supposed to releave this vapor pressure if it gets too high. My guess is that this valve feeds the port that leads to the #8 runner of the manifold. Maybe there's a piece of trash or something blocking that valve from closing. At any rate the separator needs to be serviced or replaced. It appears to be a rather pricey part. I haven't actually seen one of these but it looks as though the electric fuel pump is part of this same assembly. Look at this link and see it it looks like yours http://www.perfprotech.com/store/assembly/...L,1614-140.aspx.

Edited October 29, 2009 by nuttyskier2002

[bskiball]

Thats the part. The boat sat for four or five years before I bought it and one picture I found of the inside shows the valve (looks like maybe a float valve) on the inside. My guess is that it is like a carb and if the float is stuck fuel pours out. I should have time to take it apart by the weekend so we'll see whats in there soon. Thanks for the link I may need so seals and or parts for it or hopefully it just needs cleaned.

[martinarcher]

Awesome. Glad you got it figured out. Good job!

I can't believe that that thing costs that much new. I would be pulling ti apart too! Hope it's an easy fix. Heck, after sitting that long it could be dirt, or something simple like a dried out O-Ring.

Keep us posted.

[bskiball]

Let me run this by you guys. It is my understanding that this engine tends to vapor lock so heres what I'm thinking. What would be wrong about running that vent back to the fuel tank. This seems like it would solve both problems. The cylinder would not fill with fual and since the fuel would circulate back to the tank it would not vapor lock. Do you think that would that burn up the fuel pump? Is there a reaason that Maliobu did not do that in the first place? What do you guys think?

[nuttyskier2002]

Let me run this by you guys. It is my understanding that this engine tends to vapor lock so heres what I'm thinking. What would be wrong about running that vent back to the fuel tank. This seems like it would solve both problems. The cylinder would not fill with fual and since the fuel would circulate back to the tank it would not vapor lock. Do you think that would that burn up the fuel pump? Is there a reaason that Maliobu did not do that in the first place? What do you guys think?

It seems as though Mercury Marine only used that vapor separator for a couple of years on the inboards. There has to be a reason for this. It's not a common setup. Here's what I would do if it was my boat. I would do away with that vapor separator all together and get an aftermarket marine electric fuel pump that is capable of pumping at least 60 PSI of fuel pressure. I would plum it in to where your existing pump (the electric one) feeds the fuel rail. Then run the return line of the existing fuel pressure regulator back to the tank. If there's another port on the fuel rails that goes back to the separator just block that one off. Connect the wires that feed your existing eletric fuel pump to the new one.

I just think if you keep that fuel separator you are going to have problems with it.

Edited October 30, 2009 by nuttyskier2002

[bskiball]

Thanks for the response. I need someone to agree that my thought would work.

I was able to take the seperator apart tonight and found a diaphran that was ripped and causing the problem ($60 part and its the size of a quarter). I am going to change the system up as suggested. All that the seperator is, is a float valve (From the mechanical fuel pump) and a diaphram that lets vapor out. So I removed an o ring in the vapor release mechanism and plugged the hole with a peice of rubber cut to the size of teh o-ring but solid in the middle. I also blocked the the vent to cylinder #8 intake and the return line from the regulator(both going into the separator). Now the separator only has an intake hole (from the mechanical pump) and a exit from the electric pump to the fuel rail. All that functions inside the separator now is the float valve. Now all I need is return line to the tank from the regulator. Rather than buy a new fuel pump I figured this was about the same thing without spending a lot more money. Just need to run and get one return line and a few fittings in the morning and I'll try it.

[nuttyskier2002]

Thanks for the response. I need someone to agree that my thought would work.

I was able to take the seperator apart tonight and found a diaphran that was ripped and causing the problem ($60 part and its the size of a quarter). I am going to change the system up as suggested. All that the seperator is, is a float valve (From the mechanical fuel pump) and a diaphram that lets vapor out. So I removed an o ring in the vapor release mechanism and plugged the hole with a peice of rubber cut to the size of teh o-ring but solid in the middle. I also blocked the the vent to cylinder #8 intake and the return line from the regulator(both going into the separator). Now the separator only has an intake hole (from the mechanical pump) and a exit from the electric pump to the fuel rail. All that functions inside the separator now is the float valve. Now all I need is return line to the tank from the regulator. Rather than buy a new fuel pump I figured this was about the same thing without spending a lot more money. Just need to run and get one return line and a few fittings in the morning and I'll try it.

I think you did the wrong thing by blocking the vent. That would be like blocking the vent on a carburetor. If pressure builds up in the canister (and it will) it's going to leak somewhere else and that could be disaster.

I studied the parts brake down and I believe I have this system figured out. Why don't give me a call this weekend at 480-365-8989 and let's talk about a solution. I still think the aftermarket electric pump is the way to go. It will greatly simplify your setup.

[water_junky]

Yes. Even when I disconnect the electronics to the injectors and the high pressure fuel pump disconnected, fuel still comes out of #8 and no other cylinder.

Fuel pump disconnected,.... electrically or plumbing? Martin has a very good point. Verify it cannot be water. Also, pull your dipstick and see if it smells like fuel. If you are getting than much fuel in one cylinder it's going to find its way into the oilpan.

I had that happen once in one of my trucks with a 350 Chevy, when we got the problem fixed and fired up the engine the fumes in the crank case ignited and blow the oil pan and both valve covers clean off the motor. Scared the crap out of us and made a huge mess!!!

Terry

[bskiball]

Well heres the rest of the story. the problem turned out to be the vapor serarator diaphram. I'll try to explain for those who care.

The fuel path in the boat used to be as follows :

Tank, Fuel, Water Seperator, Mechanical Pump, Vapor Separator (Problem Piece), High Pressure Fuel Pump, Fuel Rail, Pressure Regulator, Return Back to Vapor Seperator.

The Internals of the vapor separator are not very complex. Fuel is fed in by the mechanical pump and can travel though a needle and float which controls the level of fuel in the vapor seperator or into one side of the vapor seperator diaphram. The diaphram was the problem (Dry rot, Corrosion and a hole in it ). This vapor seperator tank has two inlets and two outlet as follows: Fuel In, Fuel out to Fuel Rail, Fuel in from Fuel rail(Return), Vent to cylinder #8 intake. So the problem was fuel was being pumped into the vapor seperator by the mechanical fuel pump and through the ripped diaphram into the vent which goes to cylinder #8 intake.

Here is my solution. I thought since these motors tend to vapor lock I thought I would try to fix both problems at once. In short I returned the fuel to the tank, instead of back to the vapor seperator. So the new path looks as follows:

Tank, Fuel, Water Seperator, Mechanical Pump, Vapor Separator (Problem Piece), High Pressure Fuel Pump, Fuel Rail, Pressure Regulator, Return Back to Fuel Tank.

The Idea being that as long as the fuel is rotated back to the tank it will not heat up as quick and vapor lock (Heat soak it may still be a problem). Only time will tell if I fixed that problem. The vapor seperator tank is now simply a holding tank of fuel for the electric fuel pump. I made the diaphram inoperable but sealing it with a rubber gasket material. Now fuel comes in and the fuel level is controlled by the needle and float. The vent is still going to cylinder #8. The high pressure fuel is still as it was but the return intet into the vapor seperator is plugged. With some brass fittings from Napa and Lowes I was wable to adapt the return fuel rail line to a 3/8 high pressure line that runs back to the fuel tank and T that line into the vent hose of the fuel tank.

AND IT WORKED No extra fuel in #8 and it fired right up woth no white smoke.

We'll for 25 seconds or so because I destroyed my impeller cranking motor over trying to figure it out. A new impeller is on order and a test run will be following shortly after that. Let me know if all this made sense and thanks for all your help.

Terry

Do you think I need do drain oil and replace so any fuel vapors that leaked down will not blow pan and valve covers off? I did not read your post till after I ran it for those 25 second.

[areamike]

Do you think I need do drain oil and replace so any fuel vapors that leaked down will not blow pan and valve covers off? I did not read your post till after I ran it for those 25 second.

I would DEFINITELY change the oil and filter before firing it up again after you replace the impeller. Better safe than sorry...

[martinarcher]

Do you think I need do drain oil and replace so any fuel vapors that leaked down will not blow pan and valve covers off? I did not read your post till after I ran it for those 25 second.

I would DEFINITELY change the oil and filter before firing it up again after you replace the impeller. Better safe than sorry...

Cheap insurance. I certainly wouldn't want to run a motor with fuel in the oil.

Glad you got it all sorted out. I can't beleive they want $1300 for that stupid vapor seperator! That's retarded!

[Baddog]

Well heres the rest of the story. the problem turned out to be the vapor serarator diaphram. I'll try to explain for those who care.

The fuel path in the boat used to be as follows :

Tank, Fuel, Water Seperator, Mechanical Pump, Vapor Separator (Problem Piece), High Pressure Fuel Pump, Fuel Rail, Pressure Regulator, Return Back to Vapor Seperator.

The Internals of the vapor separator are not very complex. Fuel is fed in by the mechanical pump and can travel though a needle and float which controls the level of fuel in the vapor seperator or into one side of the vapor seperator diaphram. The diaphram was the problem (Dry rot, Corrosion and a hole in it ). This vapor seperator tank has two inlets and two outlet as follows: Fuel In, Fuel out to Fuel Rail, Fuel in from Fuel rail(Return), Vent to cylinder #8 intake. So the problem was fuel was being pumped into the vapor seperator by the mechanical fuel pump and through the ripped diaphram into the vent which goes to cylinder #8 intake.

Here is my solution. I thought since these motors tend to vapor lock I thought I would try to fix both problems at once. In short I returned the fuel to the tank, instead of back to the vapor seperator. So the new path looks as follows:

Tank, Fuel, Water Seperator, Mechanical Pump, Vapor Separator (Problem Piece), High Pressure Fuel Pump, Fuel Rail, Pressure Regulator, Return Back to Fuel Tank.

The Idea being that as long as the fuel is rotated back to the tank it will not heat up as quick and vapor lock (Heat soak it may still be a problem). Only time will tell if I fixed that problem. The vapor seperator tank is now simply a holding tank of fuel for the electric fuel pump. I made the diaphram inoperable but sealing it with a rubber gasket material. Now fuel comes in and the fuel level is controlled by the needle and float. The vent is still going to cylinder #8. The high pressure fuel is still as it was but the return intet into the vapor seperator is plugged. With some brass fittings from Napa and Lowes I was wable to adapt the return fuel rail line to a 3/8 high pressure line that runs back to the fuel tank and T that line into the vent hose of the fuel tank.

AND IT WORKED No extra fuel in #8 and it fired right up woth no white smoke.

We'll for 25 seconds or so because I destroyed my impeller cranking motor over trying to figure it out. A new impeller is on order and a test run will be following shortly after that. Let me know if all this made sense and thanks for all your help.

Terry

Do you think I need do drain oil and replace so any fuel vapors that leaked down will not blow pan and valve covers off? I did not read your post till after I ran it for those 25 second.

This is one of those questions that if you have to ask it, you already know the correct answer.

[bskiball]

Well it work. Found two small issues. One speedometer is broken but the previous owner told me that and gave me a new one that he had not put it yet. Issue 2 is that the heater core apears to be cracked. Neither are big deals. It runs, drives and takes off really really really fast. Acceleration is not cheap so I know my fuel bill is going up next summer. It is going to be 65 saturday so I may, well lets be honest, I am going to ski before I put it away. Thanks for all you help.

[Michigan boarder]

Well it work. Found two small issues. One speedometer is broken but the previous owner told me that and gave me a new one that he had not put it yet. Issue 2 is that the heater core apears to be cracked. Neither are big deals. It runs, drives and takes off really really really fast. Acceleration is not cheap so I know my fuel bill is going up next summer. It is going to be 65 saturday so I may, well lets be honest, I am going to ski before I put it away. Thanks for all you help.

Congrats on solving a complex problem! You make my projects sound easy. Post a pic of that Echelon, I've got one too and it's nice to see 'em.

[bskiball]

I'm not sure how to post pictures. If you can tell me how I will get some up. Where is shafer lake? My inlaws are at Sand Lake.

[Michigan boarder]

I'm not sure how to post pictures. If you can tell me how I will get some up. Where is shafer lake? My inlaws are at Sand Lake.

To post pics you need to be a paying member, or create a link to a website hosting the pictures.

Shafer Lake is just off of I-94 between Kalamazoo and St. Joseph, about 1.5 hours South & SW of Sand Lake. I've seen vacation cottages advertised for Sand Lake, but never been there.

[martinarcher]

Well it work. Found two small issues. One speedometer is broken but the previous owner told me that and gave me a new one that he had not put it yet. Issue 2 is that the heater core apears to be cracked. Neither are big deals. It runs, drives and takes off really really really fast. Acceleration is not cheap so I know my fuel bill is going up next summer. It is going to be 65 saturday so I may, well lets be honest, I am going to ski before I put it away. Thanks for all you help.

Sweet! You'll be able to get behind it before putting it away! Just be sure to winterize it before it gets too cold.