Carbon Monoxide

[mattyg]

Has anyone heard that Malibu boats is getting sued in Texas for a carbon monoxide poisoning death? Supposedly a woman was hanging off of the platform as the boat was driving at idle speed. She just let go and drown.

[Sixball]

It would not be a surprise. When do we stop giving people big bucks for showing us how we can be?

[68Slalom]

Their are signs on the back of the boats that say not to do that just not sure how many people read them or have plain common sense. I think for someone to drown from Carbon Monoxide they would have been exposed for a long time and I don't think as a driver I would let someone do that. A link to the story would be nice

[jetskipro550]

You would think they would have to be back there for a long time for something like that to happen. I have "teak surfed" a few times, surfed for probably 30 minutes at one time, and spent quite a while standing back there with the engine going taking a shower and I have never had any issues.

Was this woman not wearing a life jacket? If she wasn't than she is...err...was just stupid.

[bigD]

I believe if you drove around while holding on to the bumper of a car by the tail pipe the outcome would be similar.

[j2nh]

You would think they would have to be back there for a long time for something like that to happen. I have "teak surfed" a few times, surfed for probably 30 minutes at one time, and spent quite a while standing back there with the engine going taking a shower and I have never had any issues.

Was this woman not wearing a life jacket? If she wasn't than she is...err...was just stupid.

It's super dangerous and you need to be careful when the engine is running. You will gradually lose consciousness and drown. Correct Craft quit selling showers on their boats because of this. Be aware and be safe.

Having said that I've surfed, barefooted and showered on the platform, probably too dumb to get hurt.

[99response]

Darwin in action....

[jetskipro550]

You would think they would have to be back there for a long time for something like that to happen. I have "teak surfed" a few times, surfed for probably 30 minutes at one time, and spent quite a while standing back there with the engine going taking a shower and I have never had any issues.

Was this woman not wearing a life jacket? If she wasn't than she is...err...was just stupid.

It's super dangerous and you need to be careful when the engine is running. You will gradually lose consciousness and drown. Correct Craft quit selling showers on their boats because of this. Be aware and be safe.

Having said that I've surfed, barefooted and showered on the platform, probably too dumb to get hurt.

I wouldn't go so far to say that it's super dangerous to be on or around the platform when the engine is going. Sure you need to be a little careful, but there are very few cases where people have died.

[j2nh]

You would think they would have to be back there for a long time for something like that to happen. I have "teak surfed" a few times, surfed for probably 30 minutes at one time, and spent quite a while standing back there with the engine going taking a shower and I have never had any issues.

Was this woman not wearing a life jacket? If she wasn't than she is...err...was just stupid.

It's super dangerous and you need to be careful when the engine is running. You will gradually lose consciousness and drown. Correct Craft quit selling showers on their boats because of this. Be aware and be safe.

Having said that I've surfed, barefooted and showered on the platform, probably too dumb to get hurt.

I wouldn't go so far to say that it's super dangerous to be on or around the platform when the engine is going. Sure you need to be a little careful, but there are very few cases where people have died.

If the boat is idling the CO can build up fairly rapidly. The problem is you won't know it until it is possibly too late. It's just one of those common sense deals. Don't put yourself or your passengers in jeopardy. If you change your ski or board on the platform while the boat is running you should be fine. Sit on the platform and it can, and has happened.

True story. I had a buddy that used to take is dog for a slow ride after work around the lake. His dog would either ride in the boat and from time to time stand on the platform. Half way through his tour one night he stopped by his house and ran up to get a cold beverage. He left the boat idling at the dock when he ran up. Came back down, no dog. Getting towards evening so in a panic he retraced his route thinking his dog had fallen off the swim platform. Called everyone he knew, we all helped him look to no avail.

3 days later the dog surfaced under his dock. CO poisoning while the boat was sitting at the dock for no more than 3 minutes. True story, couldn't and wouldn't make something up this sad. This dog was his best friend and to this day he holds himself responsible. Be careful.

[Malibudude]

Boats come with warning stickers on the boat, IIRC the manual takes about the dangers. What makes an idiot think that the rear of a boat burning fossil fuels is somehow different than a car/truck?

Was she wearing a life vest…..humm probably not the driver/owner of the vessel should be charged in her death for not insisting rides wear a USCG approved vest. While in the end she still may have received a lethal dose of CO2, we’ll never know if she could have survived.

A similar very sad case we had the same thing happen to an 11-yo boy, his dad didn’t make him wear a life vest while teak surfing….

[BlastRlxi]

Children are much more susceptable to CO poisoning than adults. It will build up in their system much quicker. I never let the kids on the swim platform or near the transom with the engine idling.

[WTP]

Cassandra Free, who was a Kerrville resident and a coach at Tivy High School, is living in Broken Arrow, Okla., now. And her family recently suffered one of the worst tragedies imaginable, the death of her youngest son at age 9.

She has shared their story with friends via Facebook, heading her Facebook post, “Make this go viral.”

“This is one of the hardest posts I will ever have to write, but this information needs to be shared.

“Andrew Brady (Free) died on June 6, 2020. He was only 9 years old. Most people don’t really know what happened and we haven’t been fully willing to publicly share until we had autopsy answers.

“The news outlets said that he fell off the dock and drowned. We did not dispute this without having our own concrete evidence, but we knew this wasn’t what happened. He wasn’t on the dock.

“His brothers were treated that night at St. Francis for ‘Acute Carbon Monoxide poisoning.’ Andrew has been swimming since he was two years old – he was a STRONG swimmer – and yet he didn’t even struggle.

“Now we know why.

“His COHb was 72 percent. His so-called ‘drowning’ was secondary to the fact that he never would have lived at that level. What does that mean? It means Andrew was not going to live regardless of what happened next. He was at the back of our Malibu Skier most of the day. Boats, even moving, create a backdraft of exhaust. That’s right. Exactly what I’ve typed: carbon monoxide exits the rear of the boat and drafts right back into the back of the boat.

“Backseat riders are especially vulnerable at low speeds and in long no-wake zones like the one we had to cross to return to the docks.”

Carbon monoxide is a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas. Sources on a boat may include engines, gas generators, cooking ranges and space and water heaters. CO can accumulate anywhere in or around a boat, including on back decks, swim platforms or in the water around generator exhausts.

CO can remain in or around one’s boat at dangerous levels even if the engine or one nearby is no longer running.

“I didn’t know this. No one I know knew this. It’s called ‘open-air carbon monoxide poisoning,’ Free wrote. “Another friend looked into this and found that it can happen on other recreational vehicles like 4-wheelers.

“Our little Andy, our Dude, was probably slowly dying that afternoon/evening and we didn’t know it. He would’ve been tired. His head would’ve started to hurt. Sounds like too much sun after a long, physically draining day of wakeboarding, wake surfing and tubing.

“At 72 percent, or 720,000 parts per million carbon monoxide, his blood was no longer capable of carrying oxygen. Andrew crawled up onto the back edge of the boat while we were packing up at the dock and became unconscious and unaware of his impending death.

“We had no idea anything unusual was taking place. Had he not fallen over; had he made it into the car; even if he wouldn’t have passed at the lake, he would’ve been so severely brain-damaged that he likely would’ve passed away in his sleep on the way home. Even if he would’ve gone immediately to the ER at that time, he still would’ve died. No medicine could’ve saved him at his levels. There was nothing that could’ve been done at this point.

“So we have a little peace. He did not suffer – he fell asleep. We couldn’t have done anything differently with the knowledge we had.

“But everyone else can. Online boat forums will say this risk is minimal, or an ‘old wives’ tale,’ that it just doesn’t happen.

“You have to search for this information to find it. For sure, used boats do not come with this warning. But do you want to risk that your child falls into this category?

“Now you know, at the loss of our precious child, that it can happen. It may be a one-in-a-million chance, but it exists. It happens in minutes – sometimes in 60 seconds. Andy was smaller than his brothers (ages 13 and 15). They were moving around the boat more than he was. They were at slightly less risk than their youngest brother.

“But we could’ve lost all three of our children that night. As hard as it is to swallow, we were fortunate – fortunate that Andy doesn’t have to spend his life on life support, fortunate that his brothers lived.

“It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

“All of this information was confirmed by a doctor friend and by the Tulsa County Medical Examiner’s Office. I’ve been assured that my baby was so far gone that he did not cry out for me in his mind as he died. He went to sleep and that was it.

“I always hated restrictions enforced by the government – inspections, registrations and mandatory recalls that affected vehicle performance. But there is a purpose. Cars, street motorcycles and airplane manufacturers are required to notify registered owners of issues that can impact human life. Boat manufacturers do not.

“In the past 15 years, we’ve owned four registered boats and four registered personal watercraft. We’ve never received a notice of any dangerous conditions.

“But as of 2010, outside sources began to seriously investigate/test potential watercraft issues. Many state the numbers of the CO deaths on the lakes are skewed – skewed because they’re reported as heart failure or drowning.

“If you search online hard enough, you can find this, but who would ever think to research? Now you can research. And now I know that boat manufacturers do know of the dangers, and they’re not being proactive to help people stay safe.

“They make further modifications on newer models, but do not notify owners of used boats. The CDC researches it, but no one has asked that boats get annual exhaust inspections, and be retro-fitted for human safety when solutions are available.

“And it turns out there are solutions available. A boat repair shop would tell you there’s nothing wrong with my boat, but clearly there is.

“This needs to change.

“Don’t let Andy’s death be in vain. Educate yourself, and your friends and family. I do not want anyone else ever to experience what I am going through.

“I’m begging you, please share this!”

News reports about Andy’s death said it occurred at Eufaula Lake in MacIntosh County, Okla., just south of Interstate 40; and the family lives in Broken Arrow, near Tulsa. Andy was taken to St. Francis Hospital, Tulsa.

Local responses

Sharon Keith, in charge of the Emergency Room at Peterson Regional Medical Center, said she has never known of a case of carbon monoxide poisoning presented for treatment here.

But she knows the Free family, as her photographer-husband Mike took pictures of the boys when they lived in Kerrville.

A game warden assigned to Kerrville’s Texas Parks & Wildlife office, and the Kerrville Fire Department’s EMS director said their training hasn’t included information on the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning, not even with the KFD dive team; and they know of no cases encountered in their work on area lakes.

In the Kerrville area, motorized watercraft aren’t allowed in the Guadalupe River in Louise Hay Park or on Nimitz Lake, but people can use them on Ingram Lake.

Ben M. Rosario, a “vessel examiner” from the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary in San Antonio, has visited Kerr County to distribute safe boating tips and users’ responsibility booklets to the public on occasion, including at Upper Guadalupe River Authority “River Cleanup Days,” Tara Bushnoe said.

Two handouts are titled “Safe Boating Tips for Anglers, Hunters & Campers” and “You’re in Command – Boat Responsibility.”

In the first, a page titled “Dangers Astern” has carbon monoxide poisoning information and warnings on three-fourths of that page.

In the other 14-panel folded brochure, two panels list symptoms, warnings and protective steps.

It says early symptoms of CO poisoning can be confused with seasickness or intoxication, therefore those affected may not get needed medical attention.

Boat “captains” should have marine-grade, properly maintained CO detectors on board, and properly tuned engines; treat symptoms (headache, nausea, weakness and dizziness) as CO poisoning as quickly as possible; and take immediate action to ventilate fumes, by heading the boat into the wind and opening hatches and other “ports” for ventilation.

 

[Eagleboy99]

On 4/5/2009 at 2:42 PM, bigD said:

I believe if you drove around while holding on to the bumper of a car by the tail pipe the outcome would be similar.

We used to do that as kids on snow/ice covered roads!  Called a "hitchie" up here.

[csleaver]

The dangers of CO poisoning has been published in boat owner's manuals for decades, but who actually ever reads those things.

[Nitrousbird]

On 9/18/2020 at 6:36 PM, WTP said:

REPOST

 

This "person" signs up for TMC, says they have a Malibu "Wakerunner" and brings back an 11 year old post to post this - an  article we already have a thread on.  I am certain we won't hear from this poster again, but makes me think there is something else behind this...and it isn't safety related.

[The Hulk]

I'm all for the safe exhaust I'm going to add one this winter because my kids are starting to surf we don't surf 8 hours a day so it's not a big problem..but since the little ones are closer to the water where sometimes there's some smoke exhaust I want to eliminate that now that they are starting..

On the other hand some of these incidents seem to happen when people are not actually moving otherwise you would have some wind and some air exchange.. if it's dead calm outside turn the engine off if you're going to be idle for a while.. 

On the other hand maybe Malibu or other Boat brands can add a quick feature to the feature in the programming where the engine shuts off after 10 minutes of idling and not being engaged into gear.. or at least a screen warning pops up and you have to hit ignore..

They could also default a blower on to help when in idle.. 

Otherwise common sense .. on the other hand I do look at some of these newbie boaters that have no clue anything about boats or their dangers.. 

There are some sad incidents but I don't think it warrants any major change to the industry for one in a bazillion scenarios.. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by The Hulk

[TallRedRider]

3 hours ago, Nitrousbird said:

This "person" signs up for TMC, says they have a Malibu "Wakerunner" and brings back an 11 year old post to post this - an  article we already have a thread on.  I am certain we won't hear from this poster again, but makes me think there is something else behind this...and it isn't safety related.

I think it was a Russian bot here to sew discontent.  

[smileysteve]

On 9/18/2020 at 11:45 PM, csleaver said:

The dangers of CO poisoning has been published in boat owner's manuals for decades, but who actually ever reads those things.

I understand that when something happens to your loved one, it's cathartic to help ensure it doesn't happen to anybody else.

But to agree, this goes along with the following that if not taught have had signage and publication for decades.

• Lighting a grill with the cover closed
• Dock electrical wiring not covered to code (now calls for everybody with functional circuit breakers and ground faults pushing specialized systems)
• Not turning on the blower
• Reverse Cameras required for cars.
• Grabbing on to the dock
• Exiting a moving vehicle
• Smoking while filling gas tanks

[carguy79ta]

On 9/18/2020 at 7:03 PM, Eagleboy99 said:

We used to do that as kids on snow/ice covered roads!  Called a "hitchie" up here.

I did that once in college. 5def F hanging on a bumper of a Toyota. 30 mph on an icy road. What could go wrong. 🤔

[oldjeep]

38 minutes ago, TallRedRider said:

I think it was a Russian bot here to sew discontent.  

[Eagleboy99]

I think those people making face masks are "sewing" discontent. 

[TallRedRider]

5 hours ago, oldjeep said:

I am sure it was my autocorrect's fault.  Maybe voice recognition.  I am so disappointed in myself, I hope they don't toss me out of the grammar police department.  I am supposed to be the one picking on other people's poor writing.  

[buzzard]

On 9/21/2020 at 7:38 AM, Nitrousbird said:

This "person" signs up for TMC, says they have a Malibu "Wakerunner" and brings back an 11 year old post to post this - an  article we already have a thread on.  I am certain we won't hear from this poster again, but makes me think there is something else behind this...and it isn't safety related.

It’s been making it’s way around social media all week...

[Surf4FamFun]

No matter the origins and intent of the post it did start me reading, time to share.

This is from reading and a littler personal experience so if you see something wrong pleas speak up.  This is not intended as a risk guide but to explain my incomplete understanding of what CO poisoning is.

CO  binds to hemoglobin much more tightly than O does rendering a particular hemoglobin cell relativity unusable for hours after it picks up CO.  This is why someone who has been poisoned does not rebound quickly when moved to fresh air.  The time that the CO is locked to the hemoglobin can be decreased by flowing pure oxygen into the lungs and even faster by putting the patient into a hyperbaric chamber, neither treatments readily available on the water.  Basically once a hemoglobin cell is exposed to CO you can suffocate before it can be useable again.  If enough of your hemoglobin has been exposed to CO nothing can save you.

CO poisinong can happen very quickly, many boat (notice I did not say boating) related events (fatal and not) occur in 5 min or less.  I found a summary of occurrences pre 2005 (related to marine activities) where there were a large number, perhaps a majority were from auxiliary generators running aboard a docked or anchored boat. The typical narrative was that the victim was not seen for 3 to 5  minutes and found floating.  Someone would be either working or hanging out in the water at the stern of the boat and become a victim.  Thinking about how it works the higher the concentration of CO in the air the faster your hemoglobin is rendered useless, if the CO concentration is very high then minutes makes sense.

A rich running gas engine can produce easily 100 or more times the CO that the same engine running with a proper mixture does.  Having safely teak surfed a 100 times behind a boat with no issue is a mixture problem away from being a fatal environment.

Modern catalytic emission systems (to varying degrees) significantly reduce CO emissions.  So we can expect newer boats with fuel injection and catalytic converter systems reduce the risk but if something is not working they can become dangerous and since CO is odorless and colorless you have no way to know things have gone from taking hours to minutes to be fatal.

All gas engines produce some CO so long enough exposure to any engine will eventually be fatal.  

in the report I found there were accounts of only one of three people teak surfing being affected which also makes sense.  If you are behind a boat the exhaust is not equally distributed behind the platform, it is bubbling up so to speak , fresh air is swirling behind the boat so the CO concentration could vary from non existent to fatal depending on where you are.  So a safe boat might not be 

So CO poising is a real thing, can happen very quickly, is irreversible within the time it takes to suffocate (numerous accounts of victims slipping into the water with no struggle when they went under, being pulled out immediately and not surviving), and is much less likely with modern fuel and emissions systems.  All it takes for a boat to go from being "safe" to being unsafe behind the transom is an undetectable fuel system problem.  

For myself and my crew think we will follow the safety recommendations and not risk becoming a statistic.

[BigCreek]

 

On 4/7/2009 at 10:09 PM, j2nh said:

ran up to get a cold beverage. He left the boat idling at the dock when he ran up.

In no way am I talking negatively specific to this situation, but generally speaking, why would one leave a boat idling at a dock for a few minutes? Am I doing something wrong by shutting it down when I'm not using it? I know that there is a give/take with cost of the fuel and "burning hours" versus further aging the starter and causing the trauma to the motor that happens at start-up. I've always chosen to shut it off. Same as a car, I guess. I don't shut it off at a red light, but definitely do when I'm running into a store for 5-minutes.