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winddawg

Ethanol

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winddawg

Anyone seen this article about the 5% ethanol in our CA gas?

Click Here

I wonder how many boaters will have trouble in the future?

-Dave

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MO-BluBu

Here in missouri we are forced to use 10% as of this year. Luckly our malibus have plastic tanks.

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hattric73

in MN we have had 10% for years and it is soon moving 20%...ethanol is a crock...

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Dave08'VLX

I think the manual says its ok to have up to 10% ethanol.

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bound4er
...ethanol is a crock...
Could not agree more. Using 20% of our most important food crop for fuel is borderline insane.

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Bill_AirJunky

Whatever. I'd rather pay American farmers for gas for my truck & boat than some foreign company. Plus it's cleaner burning. They just need to improve on the technology so the mileage doesn't suck. We all need to support whatever it takes to develop better ethanol, biodiesel, waste veggie oil, wind, solar, even methanol, basically ANY alternatives to regular gas. But they have to get better at making it, distribution, and using it.

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bound4er

Whatever? I am all for finding alternative forms of energy - if they can compete in the marketplace. Ethanol sucks as a fuel. It is hygroscopic making it hard to transport and store - it can't be moved via pipeline for this reason. It has a $0.50 per gallon government subsidy. Why is that? It is NOT better for the environment - in fact recent studies point the opposite. It is inefficient. It is corrosive to some engine parts, especially those found in older small engines. The biggest unintended consequence of using a food crop for fuel has caused the price of all food to skyrocket with no end in sight as more government mandates kick in. Need I go on?? Good intentions do not equal good results - ethanol as fuel from a food crop will go down as one of our most misguided ideas ever (next to anthropogenic global warming Whistling.gif .

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electricjohn

Ethanol (up to 10% in NJ) was blamed for many marine engine related problems when it made its big debut in 2006 here on the right coast. Anyone with a poorly maintained engine or (more likely) fuel system was blaming the gas for their problems. But most of the problems where found to be mechanical and poor maintenance. Now that ethanol has been around for a few years here, you rarily hear of the fuel being blamed for problems anymore. For a while, I actually thought the stuff was called f_____ ethanol. It also reduces mileage a bit.

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RLXISD

A recent study by Texas A&M University—requested by Gov. Perry’s office—found that, “Relaxing the RFS does not result in significantly lower corn prices.”

The Texas A&M study also found that “corn prices have had little to do with rising food costs.” This finding is corroborated by recent studies by the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Economic Research Service, Kansas City Federal Reserve, and other third parties.

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Bill_AirJunky

It's interesting to see how much support an alternative energy source like ethanol has. Maybe if they made it from dirt or air or something that we have a more plentiful supply, we'd get better support. Or maybe people would gripe that they don't have enough air to breathe if cars ran on it.

I agree that maybe corn isn't the best source for ethanol. But the fact is we have a ton of farmers who are equipped to grow it. So the supply is there. Frankly soybeans or hemp are known to be a good source. But there is no way in he11 hemp will get any support. Maybe soybeans will. And then people will complain about something else.

Everything I've read says that burning ethanol reduces the amount of carbon dioxide put into the air (from burning gas), plus all the crops growing consumes more CO2, & replenishes oxygen. Currently mileage suffers, but maybe that can be worked out in the long run. Or maybe it will lead to another source of fuel. But the bottom line is the support for it needs to be there.

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kent342

Bill,

You are right, we do need to support the advancement of alternative fuels. I have worked very close to the farming side of corn ethanal and it is no secret that it is not the best source of stock, but it does start the process. The best is sugar cane and we will see large ac. of cane just for this purpose. I also think that withen the next 5years we will start to see the cellulosic technologies take hold, when that happens we will see large expanses of switch grass.

It is very important that we continue to expand the understanding of new fuels and reduce the dependance on the arab counties. It is in all our best interest to do so.

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bofer84

switch grass is the one of the best bets, so is algae, It produces more power then any of the above, it grows extremely quickly, and is very abundant.

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Bill_AirJunky

Right on, guys.

So anyone see any way to get their Malibu running on water yet? We're all gonna need it with gas at $5 / gallon soon.

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Gordo

It takes about 90% of a gallon of petroleum products to produce the equivalent of 1 gallon of ethanol - some studies show 110%. That takes into account all the fuel needed to plant, harvest, transport, ferment, refine and move the finished product to market - also counts in the energy content of the fertilizer (which is made from natural gas). The Feds give a 40 cent per gallon tax credit to make it compeitive!! So, the only ones making money are Arcehr Daniels Midland and the corn farmers!! The next time someone complains about huge oil company profits, think ethanol!! The 40 cent tax credit is equal to 52 cent a gallon profit, and the oil companies are not even close to that!!! Oh, and when you pull up to the pump, E85 should be priced 20% less than gasoline, or it does not make sense for you to buy it. E85 has 20% less energy than a gallon of gas, so you get 20% less mileage - no technology is going to solve that----so, if regular gasoliine is $3, your break point on E85 is $2.40 or less. Dontknow.gif

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Bill_AirJunky

All good points, Gordo.

I'll probably blow over $7000 or $8000 this year in fuel for my truck, boat, bike, ATV & wife's car. I'd rather give it all to my American brothers for their ethanol, bio-diesel, or waste veggie oil efforts than any terrorist country. But to each his own.

The bottom line is that if we don't support the alternative fuel efforts, then the process won't get any better. They need input & money to make it better. Till alternatives get more cost effective, we're not going to ween ourselves off the oil.

Edited by Bill_AirJunky

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footnlongline
It's interesting to see how much support an alternative energy source like ethanol has. Maybe if they made it from dirt or air or something that we have a more plentiful supply, we'd get better support. Or maybe people would gripe that they don't have enough air to breathe if cars ran on it.

I agree that maybe corn isn't the best source for ethanol. But the fact is we have a ton of farmers who are equipped to grow it. So the supply is there. Frankly soybeans or hemp are known to be a good source. But there is no way in he11 hemp will get any support. Maybe soybeans will. And then people will complain about something else.

Everything I've read says that burning ethanol reduces the amount of carbon dioxide put into the air (from burning gas), plus all the crops growing consumes more CO2, & replenishes oxygen. Currently mileage suffers, but maybe that can be worked out in the long run. Or maybe it will lead to another source of fuel. But the bottom line is the support for it needs to be there.

Not every one can agree, Ethanol from corn is the biggest crock, If it was made from switch grass or plants with more cellulose content, it would be more viable. The way were are doing it is total B.S..... heres a link stating that it is worse for the environment.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/04/30/et...er-gas-mileage/

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Max

I welcome any fuel that reduces our dependancy on on crude oil and something that the British farmers could grow instead of receieving government subsidies for setting aside a % of their crop growing feilds. We have been running our ski school boats on LPG for some years now

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SmoothWaterMan
I welcome any fuel that reduces our dependancy on on crude oil and something that the British farmers could grow instead of receieving government subsidies for setting aside a % of their crop growing feilds. We have been running our ski school boats on LPG for some years now

I was going to ask one of you guys about that. I knew for a number of years your Goverments provided a rebate or tax break for switching over to LPG use, enough to basically cover the conversion cost. Is this still the same? And, is the conversion still carb only, or will it work with EFI/PFI ?

Thanks,

Peter

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Matt_Alger

Good to see that most people understand that Ethanol from Corn is a terrible idea. Even here in the corn belt many farmers admit the same but are happy to take the high prices and profits while it lasts (I would do the same). Some of the good farmers are already studying sawgrass for ethanol and various forms of bio diesel fuels as they expect at most 5 to 10 more years of ethanol production from corn.

Lets hope that we can convert to biodiesel from algae! Clap.gif

No you can't run your boat on water (at least not for less energy than what it would take to convert the water to burnable Hydrogen), but you can run your boat on algae... once you buy a diesel engine for it and the algae has been processed to biodiesel.

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Bill_AirJunky

That Business Week article is good stuff. Really makes you want to speed up the process, even though our own government is screwin the pooch on the whole scenario.

Sounds like the concept of using sugar cane or algae are not viable in most of the US. We need a crop that American farmers can grow that will give the highest energy yield possible, and doesn't spew even more pollution than burning fossil fuels already does. We need a government with their eyes open & head out enough to be able to see that & put it in place.

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Matt_Alger
That Business Week article is good stuff. Really makes you want to speed up the process, even though our own government is screwin the pooch on the whole scenario.

Sounds like the concept of using sugar cane or algae are not viable in most of the US. We need a crop that American farmers can grow that will give the highest energy yield possible, and doesn't spew even more pollution than burning fossil fuels already does. We need a government with their eyes open & head out enough to be able to see that & put it in place.

I beg to differ on one point. We really don't want a product that American Farmers can grow... at least not in place of growing food. We want a fuel crop that can grow where we don't currently do farming (like the desert - where the sunlight makes algae grow extremely rapidly). We want our farmers turning back their good growing land to crops to actually feed the planet not fuel the planet. It would only take the area of about 10% of the State on New Mexico to grow the algae that we needed for all our fuel. By the way, algae would be carbon neutral because algae turns CO2 into O2 during growing.

Totally agree on the government with their head in their ... Current National Debt: $9,341,558,336,444 (which increases by about $1 million every minute)

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Bill_AirJunky

Wow. Why the US government isn't on this like stink on s....... I have no clue.

Check this out: Pond scum

Is it just not profitable enough or what? Seems like it solves several issues, gives us ethanol, biodiesel & cleans the air.

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bound4er

This is a well written article on the unfolding problems of corn-based ethanol - http://www.heritage.org/Research/Energyand...ment/wm1879.cfm. I agree with his assesment that repealing these mandates is not going to be easy. Hopefully congress will do right thing - for once.

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Arctic Slalom

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D90CGS5O0.htm

"But there is little agreement on just how much impact biofuels like ethanol have had on food prices.

The ethanol industry puts the cost increase at 4 percent, while the Department of Agriculture says the figure is closer to 20 percent. International aid groups, including the World Bank, say ethanol accounts for a much larger chunk of the price surge."

-farming is all about technology. i'd rather keep my money local as well....sounds like in 5-10 years corn will fall away and switchgrass will be taking over. our farmers will figure it out...they always do. in the 5-10 years it takes to move away from corn our oil thurst may be diminished will all the alternative fuels being explored/tested.

-another thought...when the farmers across america do good...rural america does good. the bank, the hardware store, the auto dealer, the implement dealers, etc. etc. etc.

Edited by Arctic Slalom

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