Speed Control and improvement

[martho]

This season has been full of slalom skiing and we are just starting our 4th month. It has been a season of good improvement for me, however I am at a new stage. Still playing 15' off, but trying to bump the boat speed. I slalomed for the first time at age 30 8/03. I went from two skis to no skis. I realized I missed a step and started playing slalom. I like it

I regularly ski behind a 88 PS 190 454, 90 SN and 01 RLX. The RLX is the only boat with PP, however it is the least used boat. The 88 PS is on a lift next to a permanent course. The SN is the portable course "holder" and transports the course to the lake. It is just much easier for all involved to use the SN and PS most of the time.

I have issues breaking at the waist on my off side turn + wake cross and need to improve my form. This is first and foremost in my skiing plan for the next few weeks. I pull on a handle about 10 minutes everyday plus ski 4-5 days a week.

Now that you have some background, here is the question.

The slalom speeds vary between 30 - 34 on the other boats. I am trying to get solid at 32 and bump to 34 soon. During the last week, my passes have been GPS measured with a low of 30.0 and a high of 33.1. The GPS is always in the boat and I reset it often to show max speed. When I get back in the boat, I can always tell what the max speed was and this is how I determine speeds of my passes.

Does the variable speed prohibit me from learning each pass?

Am I hindering my skiing with the variation in speed?

Do I just ski and not worry about it?

I am eager to improve and get to 34mph speeds and then shorten the rope.

To those who are skiing 34 or faster and running the course, help please

[edwin]

consistency is key in my book...same pull, regardless of driver. PP is the way to go

[reggie]

The consistent speed will not assit you with form but will certainly give you the proper feel (timing) required for making each pass. Traditional driving I believe is a science but now "I would never ski the course without PP".

You need to feel comfortable and confident with the driver and there ability to manage speed, if not, this will be on your mind around one ball!!!!

encourage the folks to use a speed control system....

Cheers,

Reggie

[UWSkier]

Just get a driver who's good at watching a tach. Don't pay any attention to your max speed recall on your GPS. Just because the boat hit that speed at one point during your run doesn't mean you were going that fast every time. There are times when I'm lining someone up for a 32 MPH pass where I'll have the boat going 33 MPH when they start their pullout. It's then that I usually compare the speedo to the tach and set the tach right where it needs to be to assure 32 MPH while the skier is the most visible to the boat.

[martho]

This thread is not about "telling/encourage them to use speed control." The thread is about what benefits/negatives come with each way.

Please stay on topic

[UWSkier]

Or get PP.

Edited June 22, 2005 by UWSkier

[UWSkier]

As far as benefits/negatives of not having speed control, well there are no benefits of not having it except you become a better boat driver if you don't have it. As far as your skiing goes, a little inconsistency will slow your progress somewhat, but it will also make you a more versatile skier. You'll be able to ski more comfortably behind different boats. Different boats really do feel different off the ball. For example, the 206 I ski the course behind frequently is a little less spongy off the ball than the RLXi I get to use sometimes. It's not a bad thing, it's just different. You just learn to compensate on a nearly subconscious level. 1 MPH in either direction is similar IMO...

[reggie]

Three questions: answers: 1yes,2 no,3 yes

[edwin]

The consistent speed will not assit you with form...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reggie - disagree if the problem is the pass is too slow. I can certainly feel my ski dragging along in the water if the pass is slower then the usual 34.2mph. When the ski drags, my form is off.

[reggie]

edwin,

The reference was to point out the difference in 34mph to 32 mph. I would agree with you that if the speed drops to much, you sink and form would change. But variation of 2 to 3 mph should not change form, given your cross course speed.

Reggie

[skisix@38]

As usual my perspective on this is quite different. If you have some nites that you feel like you're doing great and you think you skied the whole pass at 34mph and are really excited and then the next nite you can't even run a 32mph pass- I'd say PP would greatly help that. I can tell a big difference between a 16.78 and a 16.99. The other thing about hand driving that could limit you improvement is where are the drivers giving you throttle/taking away throttle-that could be the worst factor of all.

Skiing behind different boats does build versatility and makes a person a better skier because you have to rely on your technique but, that also makes it harder on the drivers to go from one boat to the next and still yield the same pull.

A consistant pull, where the boat throttles and where it lets you ski free , is the bassis for all improvements. Without that it's difficult to say "you should keep your elbows in, shoulders back.....etc".

I find the CC to be softer then the RLXi, interesting. I regularly ski a 196, I ski that boat KX+, PX5 and when the water warms to 70 I go to KX++, PX 10. I always ski the RLXi at KX Normal and PX0.

[JohnDoe]

martho, I'm not trying to take your topic, but we have some similar concerns, the answers to which might help us both.

skisix, we have digital pro. We have 3 mags in the course each way. We obviously use slalom mode. I have noticed that PPass is too aggressive with my weight entered. Instead, I often use a lower weight for the skier, and it feels a lot better, but still too aggressive of a drive for me (I guess it's not that it's too aggressive, it's that the timing is not right: by that, I mean as soon as I feel free of the boat...whooooooom...I'm getting yanked off edge by the boat in the turn, then I'll set a solid edge and wheeeeew, the power is gone). So, I quit using it for me and my friends. So I guess I can see where a newer course skier would not know which route to go. I'm no ppass expert, but can you explain teh kx and px settings you changed (not how, but why, and what difference you felt in the course). That would be awesome. Also, can you address how the entered weight of the skier affects the way PPass, kx, and px responds.

[skisix@38]

martho, I'm not trying to take your topic, but we have some similar concerns, the answers to which might help us both. 

skisix,  we have digital pro.  We have 3 mags in the course each way.  We obviously use slalom mode.  I have noticed that PPass is too aggressive with my weight entered.  Instead, I often use a lower weight for the skier, and it feels a lot better, but still too aggressive of a drive for me (I guess it's not that it's too aggressive, it's that the timing is not right: by that, I mean as soon as I feel free of the boat...whooooooom...I'm getting yanked off edge by the boat in the turn, then I'll set a solid edge and wheeeeew, the power is gone).  So, I quit using it for me and my friends.  So I guess I can see where a newer course skier would not know which route to go.  I'm no ppass expert, but can you explain teh kx and px settings you changed (not how, but why, and what difference you felt in the course).  That would be awesome.  Also, can you address how the entered weight of the skier affects the way PPass, kx, and px responds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll try....

First, above 24mph PP uses rpm baselines. This means for example that at 34mph at my lake my baseline rpm is 3385. Then you add crew weight and skier resistance(weight), those values get added to the baseline although crew are not added 1 for 1. That's how PP comes up with the value of rpm goinjg through the course, say 3750. The way PP works is to use the servo connected to you throttle to make changes in throttle to maintain the 3750 rpm. The KX is a variable that PP uses to change the rate at which it gets back to the setpoint, 3750 in this example, or put differently how much action it will take to add throttle or take throttle away to maintain the setpoint. So, you are behind the boat and you lean out to the side, doing this adds drag to the boat and the rpms will start to drop off, the KX is what determines how much gas gets added back in to get back to the 3750 rpm.

PX is for the switch section, if you dont' have a switch section(you have to purchase this extra) then you have no PX or PX=0. If you do have a switch section than you can put a value from 0 to 45 in and what happens is that once a certain amount of tension is placed on the rope(125lb force) the PP adds in rpm by the value you put times the skier weight. So, sometimes I ski with a PX=5 and my skier weight is 200- 5% of 200 is 10 rpm. PP just adds 10 more rpm until the 125lb force is off the rope. The idea here is that it gives the skier a little extra speed through their pull but then slows the boat down when they are in the turn and you get free of the boat.

Now, the KX is a calculation based on weight. So, when you put in less weight you are really lowering the KX value, or the aggresiveness to maintain the setpoint. What I have found is that RLX's and RLXi's with smaller pitched props that run up into 4000 + rpm at 34mph are now fun to ski behind because I'm always chasing the boat. That may be your situation Wakebrd. In those instances I input 150 for my skier weight and then in "tournament mode" I add in 50 more RPM and then the ride feels good.

Based on your description above wakebrd, I'd think that either your boat is not set up properly or you PP is not set up properly.

[JohnDoe]

skisix, thanks for all the great input. We ski behind a new rlxi with the monsoon and the standard prop, which I think is a 3 blade 13x12. We have set up the baselines. We do not have the switch, and we run inn regular slalom mode, not tournament mode. We have never messed with PX, and it stays at 0. We have not altered the factory SSB settings.

After reading your post, I changed the KX to -, and used a little less of my skier weight to try it out. It felt worlds different, and my friends agreed. I ski at 34 15-22 off, up to one guy that skis at 32 off (34mph). Basically, we all felt that as soon as we went to glide, the boat was pouring it on, so we never felt "free" of the boat (before), but this change helped a lot. While we always use PPass for other sports, we weren't used to the type of pull that PPass provided in slalom (because it's a little more behind than a hand drive). If thats what we felt, should we have instead KX to ++, that way it's always "on the ball"? In either case, we were getting good times with lower skier weights and a KX of - when we tried out the "new" settings. I think that there is some possibility that this a very hot motor (which was causing us problems) because it runs a legit 52 with the monsoon, which I think is pretty unheard-of. Maybe the motor is just too hot for our previous settings? In other words, our boat with a kx -, is the same as most monsoon with a kx neutral. Thanks again. What are your SSB settings? Whats the advantage of fiddling with them? If we are still getting good times, whats the advantage?

Martho, I think this discussion is good for you because you're hearing soem talk about what makes a handdrive better/worse than a PPass drive, as well as making some PPass settings that you can implement.

Edited June 24, 2005 by wakebrdgod

[skisix@38]

skisix, thanks for all the great input.  We ski behind a new rlxi with the monsoon and the standard prop, which I think is a 3 blade 13x12.  We have set up the baselines.  We do not have the switch, and we run inn regular slalom mode, not tournament mode.  We have never messed with PX, and it stays at 0.  We have not altered the factory SSB settings. 

After reading your post, I changed the KX to -, and used a little less of my skier weight to try it out.  It felt worlds different, and  my friends agreed.  I ski at 34 15-22 off, up to one guy that skis at 32 off (34mph).  Basically, we all felt that as soon as we went to glide, the boat was pouring it on, so we never felt "free" of the boat (before), but this change helped a lot.  While we always use PPass for other sports, we weren't used to the type of pull that PPass provided in slalom (because it's a little more behind than a hand drive).  If thats what we felt, should we have instead KX to ++, that way it's always "on the ball"?  In either case, we were getting good times with lower skier weights and a KX of - when we tried out the "new" settings.  I think that there is some possibility that this a very hot motor (which was causing us problems) because it runs a legit 52 with the monsoon, which I think is pretty unheard-of.  Maybe the motor is just too hot for our previous settings?  In other words, our boat with a kx -, is the same as most monsoon with a kx neutral.  Thanks again.  What are your SSB settings?  Whats the advantage of fiddling with them?  If we are still getting good times, whats the advantage?

Martho, I think this discussion is good for you because you're hearing soem talk about what makes a handdrive better/worse than a PPass drive, as well as making some PPass settings that you can implement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you lowered you weight and are getting good times, are they slow? I think you need to take the boat through the course without any skier weight in PP, with the crew weight accounted for and see what times you get. You can go to www.usawaterski.com for a table of what the times are, at 34.2 you should get a 16.95. Once that is done see how the pull feels.

Remeber that the KX is the factor that adjusts how quickly the RPM's get back to where they should be, not just going from lower rpm to higher but it always controls the overshoot getting the higher RPM's back to where they should be. In this regard I think that KX- takes longer and overshoots more to get back to where it should be. Doing this means that the boat is overspeeding when you want to be free and underspeed when you are wanting to hook up and get accelerated.

SSB is 2nd segment balance. The higher this value the more throttle is removed from the 3 ball to the exit gates. If you go through the course you times that are displayed at the end should be balanced( should read +.02 +.03 for example) if one or the other is higher than the baseline or SSB is off( -.12 +.15 for example) woudl indicate that you baseline is high and that you need more SSB.

My RLXi SSB is 11. I highly doubt that you are really getting to 53mph in a stock RLXi. Maybe you could do that with one of GalaxyToads motors but not a stock monsoon.

[JohnDoe]

I follow what you are saying about taking the skier weight out and all that stuff to check times. I have, they are all dead on. Even with a lower skier weight than the person skiiing, I get Ok's after the pass. It softened it up a lot by doing that.

I said the boat would run a legit 52, not 53. And it does, and it's totally stock. The speed is according to GPS. I pulled a tournament barefooter 45-46 with 6 people in the boat and it was far from buried. Keep in mind, I'm at a lower altitude than you. This same barefooter friend of mine has a '97 response with the old monsoon (320, now basically an LCR), factory prop, and it runs 52. OF course, we have other friends whose boats don't break 48. Thats why I'm thinking my motor may be hot and it has more power than PPass is expecting. Just a thought.

So, if my SSB times are similar, such as (+.02, +.06) etc., I'm OK?

I'm gonna get underneath the boat tonight and see if I got a screwed up prop, but I have no reason to think those numbers are off.

Edited June 24, 2005 by wakebrdgod

[UWSkier]

that's an interesting hypothesis on the hot motor... Some motors are definitely hotter than others.

[skisix@38]

what version PP you running? You might ned to change the skier factor....

turn PP off and then simultaneously push the "up" and "down" arrows. Then scroll through the menu to skier factor and lower to say 80-90. Then you should get the same thing when putting in actual weights and it softens the pull.

Your times look balanced enough, maybe add 1 or 2 to the SSB. The other thing is you need to look for the actual times not just somewhere in the range. I can tell a big difference between the fast side and the slow side of 34. The same is true for any speed.

I do believe there are differences in motor and how well they run, you could have a hot motor. That would mean that instead of 340Hp you may have 350 or even say 360HP, velocity is a ^3 of drag and drag is a ^3 of HP. 20 extra ponnies isn't going to do anything to top end speed. I'm not saying your wrong or that your GPS isn't working, just that it's likely that something else is going on.

[JohnDoe]

ski six, are you guessing that maybe the skier factor is too high? what would too high be?

We run 6.5

As for the SSB, I should add it if what? The 2 splits are seperated by too much? eg, +.02, +.12? Then, an added SSB would bring them closer together? Do we have to use ABT for that? What if the times were +.12, +.02, then what as to SSB?

[skisix@38]

ski six, are you guessing that maybe the skier factor is too high?  what would too high be?

We run 6.5

As for the SSB, I should add it if what?  The 2 splits are seperated by too much?  eg, +.02, +.12?  Then, an added SSB would bring them closer together?  Do we have to use ABT for that?  What if the times were +.12, +.02, then what as to SSB?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm guessing that is set to 100 or more and it is in 6.5- check it and see.

No, if your example was accurate then they are pretty good, but you have to scroll through that menu anyway and you might as well adjust it to have them perfect. if your 2nd segment is running faster than the first then adding SSB will bring them closer together. You don't need ABT. For a +.12 +.02 you would need to lower your baseline and then lower your SSB. That says that you are running fast by .12 through the 1st segment so, assuming your skier weight and crew are correct AND there was no wind, you would need to lower your baseline. When you lower your baseline to slow down. This will also slow down the 2nd segment and then you would need to adjust that to run faster.

[Rod S]

And if you don't have speed control and don't want to mess with px/kx and all that crap you have two other routes that are much easier.

I'm a big fan of KISS, keep it simple stupid. I have a lingering dread of PP from the early days of their poor software. PP used to be a hard hammer type pull and usually right at the ball where a newby skier like me didn't want it (PP uses the switch to help that now). Today the software is much better and if it's set right it's great. It just takes some tweaking now going from boat to boat but not nearly as much as in the old days.

Just about everyone at our site uses the BTS system. No farting around with px/kx. Just a great pull no matter who's boat you ride behind. I jump from boat to boat and all the pulls are the same.

I ski the best behind an Accuski pull. The algorithm and software interface is way ahead of PP but unfortunatley the footswitch confuses some folks. Same deal though, I can jump behind anybody's boat with Accuski and get a great pull everytime.

[JohnDoe]

ski six, are you guessing that maybe the skier factor is too high?  what would too high be?

We run 6.5

As for the SSB, I should add it if what?  The 2 splits are seperated by too much?  eg, +.02, +.12?  Then, an added SSB would bring them closer together?  Do we have to use ABT for that?  What if the times were +.12, +.02, then what as to SSB?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm guessing that is set to 100 or more and it is in 6.5- check it and see.

No, if your example was accurate then they are pretty good, but you have to scroll through that menu anyway and you might as well adjust it to have them perfect. if your 2nd segment is running faster than the first then adding SSB will bring them closer together. You don't need ABT. For a +.12 +.02 you would need to lower your baseline and then lower your SSB. That says that you are running fast by .12 through the 1st segment so, assuming your skier weight and crew are correct AND there was no wind, you would need to lower your baseline. When you lower your baseline to slow down. This will also slow down the 2nd segment and then you would need to adjust that to run faster.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wouldn't the +.12, +.02 mean I was running slow?

Edited June 30, 2005 by wakebrdgod

[skisix@38]

I'll have to look to see as I don't often look at that, I look at the segment times and make adjustments from there.

[Rod S]

It usually means you are fast by .12 but it's been a while since I've looked at PP.