20' Fakesetter versus Waksetter

[razor]

I have narrowed my purchase to either a 2007 20' VTX or a 2007 20' Fakesetter (with wedge and ballast) very soon. I'm a strong skier and new boarder and will continue to do both -- so I lean toward the Fakesetter. I understand the difference in the hull designs.

However, I am concerned that the Fakesetter won't give me a good enough wake AND that I might take a hit on resale. Would really appreciate hearing from folks with experience riding behind both boats.

Thanks!!

[99response]

Ski and board them both, only way to do it. The wake hull still throws a pretty good slalom wake.

-Chris

Edited January 30, 2008 by 99response

[NorCaliBu]

Ski and board them both, only way to do it.

Could not agree more.

The wake hull still throws a pretty good slalom wake.

That is a completely subjective statement. I have a buddy that thinks his ProStar 197 "throws a pretty good slalom wake".

[99response]

Ok, fine I'll put in some evidence. I talked to three people who demoed a 20 LSV and then a Wake VTX back to back, slalom skiing and they felt that the wakes between the two were very similar. I have skied a Wake VTX and it felt pretty good, but it was also pretty choppy.

Well I guess this is still subjective...

[VinRLX]

Ski and board them both, only way to do it.

Could not agree more.

The wake hull still throws a pretty good slalom wake.

That is a completely subjective statement. I have a buddy that thinks his ProStar 197 "throws a pretty good slalom wake".

Probably the same buddy who thinks "you're a pretty good skier."

[NorCaliBu]

Ski and board them both, only way to do it.

Could not agree more.

The wake hull still throws a pretty good slalom wake.

That is a completely subjective statement. I have a buddy that thinks his ProStar 197 "throws a pretty good slalom wake".

Probably the same buddy who thinks "you're a pretty good skier."

Look at that...the blind squirrel found a nut.

Oh...and

[hotrodbowtie]

Remember that the vtx can have a cut diamond, or wake hull. It is very possible to have a wakesetter and a "Fakesetter" be exactly the same boat.

:unsure:

[DizzyG]

razor, I rode an '06 VLX diamond hull for a little over a month and then got the exact same setup on a wake hull. There are huge differences in the wake for boarding and as a recreational skier I don't mind the wake behind the VLX. I wouldn't want to try to run a course, but I can be fairly aggressive with my skiing and it is bigger than the diamond but doesn't bother me or any of my rec. skiing friends.

Happy to answer questions, I have NOT ridden the cut diamond

[razor]

Ok, fine I'll put in some evidence. I talked to three people who demoed a 20 LSV and then a Wake VTX back to back, slalom skiing and they felt that the wakes between the two were very similar. I have skied a Wake VTX and it felt pretty good, but it was also pretty choppy.

Well I guess this is still subjective...

Great feedback! Subjective would tell me that there is not that much difference - but that's hard to believe.

So.....I would have hoped that if the 3 folks you spoke to were primarily skiers, then after demoing slalom they would have preferred the LSV. Do you know if they also boarded behind both and compared wake size, shape, etc with (or without) wedges and ballast deployed?

Any personal opinions on which boat to go with or other factors/options I should be considering (such as resale values)?

Thanks!

[hotrodbowtie]

Ok,

Here goes nothing. I have skied, boarded, and surfed behind both. Ski wake is very similar. Wake hull is a little larger than the diamond, but still very very skiable. With full ballast and wedge deployed, the wakeboard wake is quite a bit better with the wake hull. I would say as much as 40%. Surf wake with full ballast and wedge deployed is very significantly different as well. With a diamond hull a big guy, like myself, cannot let go of the rope. With the wake hull, smaller people can definitely go ropeless, and bigger people mostly can, a little dependent on the size of board and ability. A larger guy that has good technique should have no problem. With additional balast the wave is very surfable, but it is very difficult to get the boat to plane.

JMHO

[UWSkier]

Do you course ski? If so, get the Cut Diamond. Our 2001 Sunsetter VLX has a similar hull and it's a great surfing boat with wedge and ballast. It hasn't left us wanting on the slalom ski above 30 MPH. Do you plan on teaching youngsters to slalom? If so DEFINITELY get the diamond hull. The wake stays lower and flatter at lower speeds with the diamond hull.

[99response]

Ok, fine I'll put in some evidence. I talked to three people who demoed a 20 LSV and then a Wake VTX back to back, slalom skiing and they felt that the wakes between the two were very similar. I have skied a Wake VTX and it felt pretty good, but it was also pretty choppy.

Well I guess this is still subjective...

Great feedback! Subjective would tell me that there is not that much difference - but that's hard to believe.

So.....I would have hoped that if the 3 folks you spoke to were primarily skiers, then after demoing slalom they would have preferred the LSV. Do you know if they also boarded behind both and compared wake size, shape, etc with (or without) wedges and ballast deployed?

Any personal opinions on which boat to go with or other factors/options I should be considering (such as resale values)?

Thanks!

I believe they were sky skiers and slalom skiers. I believe the wake hull gives you a more all around boat IF you find the slalom wake to your liking. But you really have to try it for yourself, back to back. Resale wise I think you will find someone who would like the boat with a wake hull or a cut hull, depends on what their primary focus is.

-Chris

Edited January 31, 2008 by 99response

[Madmanacrossthewater]

Ok,

Here goes nothing. I have skied, boarded, and surfed behind both. Ski wake is very similar. Wake hull is a little larger than the diamond, but still very very skiable. With full ballast and wedge deployed, the wakeboard wake is quite a bit better with the wake hull. I would say as much as 40%. Surf wake with full ballast and wedge deployed is very significantly different as well. With a diamond hull a big guy, like myself, cannot let go of the rope. With the wake hull, smaller people can definitely go ropeless, and bigger people mostly can, a little dependent on the size of board and ability. A larger guy that has good technique should have no problem. With additional balast the wave is very surfable, but it is very difficult to get the boat to plane.

JMHO

I have to disagree with that statement. I'm 6'7" 240 and learned to surf behind a diamond hull. I've also seen people (including myself early on) who could not let go of the rope behind a 247 with a HUGE surf wake. It all depends on weight (how much and where). Wedge comes into play as well.

[hotrodbowtie]

I have to disagree with that statement. I'm 6'7" 240 and learned to surf behind a diamond hull. I've also seen people (including myself early on) who could not let go of the rope behind a 247 with a HUGE surf wake. It all depends on weight (how much and where). Wedge comes into play as well.

Madman,

I was referring to diamond and wake hulls on a VTX. Did you take that into account? If so, I guess that I was wrong. This summer I pulled a person who I thought was a pretty good surfer, but 240lbs and he could just barely let go. Very minimal as far as wake. I could be totally off base though.

:)

[Madmanacrossthewater]

Hotrod,

I was referring to the 21 Sunscape, not the 20. My bad. I thought we were talking diamond hull across the board. I have yet to surf a VTX with either hull. I hope to this summer.

[Matt_Alger]

You may want to ask Willy to comment about surfing behind a VTX with the Cut Diamond Hull. As I recall he was able to do it without much trouble. He said it was critical to have the power wedge and proper weighting and deep water (over 10') or else the Cut Diamond Hull didn't give much of a wake for surfing. However, with that said at the end of the season he did sell his Cut Diamond Hull and plans to get a Wake Hull this season. He told me that he felt the wake hull was actually better for open water skiing at 15 and 22 off with about 25% ballast in the front tank (slightly bigger wake but less rooster). The Cut Diamond really shines for slalom beyond 22 off.

I did a bunch of research on the Wake Hull vs Cut Diamond Hull and spoke to several people on this site as well as pro barefooters, a Malibu factory rep, several dealers, and two of the gentlement mentioned above who are primarily sky skiers who demoed the boats back to back about the 2 hulls. As everyone said, it is personal preference. After my demo, I was certain that I wanted the Cut Diamond Hull. However, I started to question that decision as I researched this fall and found the Response LXi with the Cut Diamond isn't a favorite amongst footers. So I started thinking that maybe the Wake Hull would meet my needs better. I got a lot of opinions and I would say 50% think Wake Hull and 50% think Diamond Hull is the way to go depending on what they want the boat to do for them. There is no one boat that will do everything at world class levels. The only way to do that is to buy a Sanger DXII for Barefooting, . In the end, I am going to stick with the Cut Diamond Hull as my preferences are slalom and barefooting first and wakeboarding and surfing (would like to learn surfing) only when the water isn't good enough for footin or slalom. The factory rep told me that the Cut Diamond on the VTX/20 LSV was desined to be a crossover boat (not just a Slalom boat like the Respons LXi) but the Wake Hull was designed to be the best 20' wakeboard boat possible, if people like it better for slalom, it is by chance, not by design.

You may also want to look up a few of the other topics that covered the VTX for more info if you want, but the best thing to do is to trust yourself.

[razor]

You may want to ask Willy to comment about surfing behind a VTX with the Cut Diamond Hull. As I recall he was able to do it without much trouble. He said it was critical to have the power wedge and proper weighting and deep water (over 10') or else the Cut Diamond Hull didn't give much of a wake for surfing. However, with that said at the end of the season he did sell his Cut Diamond Hull and plans to get a Wake Hull this season. He told me that he felt the wake hull was actually better for open water skiing at 15 and 22 off with about 25% ballast in the front tank (slightly bigger wake but less rooster). The Cut Diamond really shines for slalom beyond 22 off.

I did a bunch of research on the Wake Hull vs Cut Diamond Hull and spoke to several people on this site as well as pro barefooters, a Malibu factory rep, several dealers, and two of the gentlement mentioned above who are primarily sky skiers who demoed the boats back to back about the 2 hulls. As everyone said, it is personal preference. After my demo, I was certain that I wanted the Cut Diamond Hull. However, I started to question that decision as I researched this fall and found the Response LXi with the Cut Diamond isn't a favorite amongst footers. So I started thinking that maybe the Wake Hull would meet my needs better. I got a lot of opinions and I would say 50% think Wake Hull and 50% think Diamond Hull is the way to go depending on what they want the boat to do for them. There is no one boat that will do everything at world class levels. The only way to do that is to buy a Sanger DXII for Barefooting, . In the end, I am going to stick with the Cut Diamond Hull as my preferences are slalom and barefooting first and wakeboarding and surfing (would like to learn surfing) only when the water isn't good enough for footin or slalom. The factory rep told me that the Cut Diamond on the VTX/20 LSV was desined to be a crossover boat (not just a Slalom boat like the Respons LXi) but the Wake Hull was designed to be the best 20' wakeboard boat possible, if people like it better for slalom, it is by chance, not by design.

You may also want to look up a few of the other topics that covered the VTX for more info if you want, but the best thing to do is to trust yourself.

The thread has been great and I am learning a lot that will help me decide between the 20' LSV (with cut diamond hull) and VTX (with wake hull).

My take-aways for the 20' VTX and LSV thus far are:

- Without wedge and ballast, the wakes on the cut diamond and wake hulls are similar, but as you would expect, the wake is likely a bit smaller on the LSV cut diamond (even though Willy LIKED the VTX wake hull for slalom).

- For wedge and ballast fully deployed on each boat (and in water > 10 feet), what I think I am hearing is that, again as you would expect, the wake hull gives a bigger wake (and possibly much bigger) than the LSV cut diamond.

Net/net, what I am really trying to determine is 1) if the VTX will give me a small enough wake to do non-competitive slalom course work (ie aggressive skiing), and 2) whether the LSV with wedge and ballast fully deployed will give me plenty of wake height/quality (that can roughly compare to the size of wake generated by the VTX wake hull) for wakeboarding.

Any comments about the general shape (or quality) of the wakes generated by the 2 boats?

What is a "sky skier?"

Please keep the thread rolling -- thanks!

[hotrodbowtie]

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to drop out some clarification.

A Wakesetter VTX and a Sunscape 20 LSV can have exactly the same hull. The std hull on a Wakesetter is the wake hull with the option being the diamond hull. The std hull on a 20 LSV is a diamond hull with the wake hull being the optional hull. The diamond hull on both boats is exactly the same. Beyond that the only main difference is in the ballast configuration. The Wakesetter VTX has under floor hard ballast tanks and the 20 lsv cannot have under floor ballast tanks. You can put ballast in a 20 lsv but it is above floor ballast, whether it is hard or soft tanks. (Dealer installed) In my opinion, if you are going use ballast in this boat you should get the Wakesetter VTX.

The Diamond hull in either boat has a very similar wake to a response. It is just a touch taller and a touch steeper. You can relieve the steepness by adding people up front, or a 1/2 tank of ballast in the center tank. By moving ballast forward it flattens both the wake and the transition.

Hope that this makes sense.

[MalibuTime]

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to drop out some clarification.

A Wakesetter VTX and a Sunscape 20 LSV can have exactly the same hull. The std hull on a Wakesetter is the wake hull with the option being the diamond hull. The std hull on a 20 LSV is a diamond hull with the wake hull being the optional hull. The diamond hull on both boats is exactly the same. Beyond that the only main difference is in the ballast configuration. The Wakesetter VTX has under floor hard ballast tanks and the 20 lsv cannot have under floor ballast tanks. You can put ballast in a 20 lsv but it is above floor ballast, whether it is hard or soft tanks. (Dealer installed) In my opinion, if you are going use ballast in this boat you should get the Wakesetter VTX.

The Diamond hull in either boat has a very similar wake to a response. It is just a touch taller and a touch steeper. You can relieve the steepness by adding people up front, or a 1/2 tank of ballast in the center tank. By moving ballast forward it flattens both the wake and the transition.

Hope that this makes sense.

Razor, from your last post it looked like you are getting wrapped around the axel a bit. As HRB notes, if you want ballast then get the VTX, because it is built in. Just decide if you want wake or diamond.

[CTSunsetter]

Net/net, what I am really trying to determine is 1) if the VTX will give me a small enough wake to do non-competitive slalom course work (ie aggressive skiing)

YOU have to ski them both to decide! 3 out of 4 skiers are going to say they like the "fakesetter" better for skiing and skiing it is the only way to know which group you are in. A VTX "fakesetter" is not a Response LXi and a VTX "WakeSetter" is not a VLX. It's a "crossover" boat; it's a compromise at both ends.

One thing missed in this discussion is the workout you are going to give your driver thru the course or free skiing. The driver has to compensate for the pull of the skier (reminder, it's not a direct drive) and you will probably knock buoys out with the boat in the course.

What is a "sky skier?"

This is a my wife, who is a Sky Skier!

[Longjohn]

I don't know anything about sky skiing, but it looks like she is about to experience a painful landing.

[CTSunsetter]

I don't know anything about sky skiing, but it looks like she is about to experience a painful landing.

She is the queen at landing the lowest gainers ever! Sometimes she just has a blond moment and forgets to jump! VIDEO Her misses are very rare now and she gets good hight too.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic.

Edited February 4, 2008 by CTSunsetter

[mrothwell]

YOU have to ski them both to decide! 3 out of 4 skiers are going to say they like the "fakesetter" better for skiing and skiing it is the only way to know which group you are in. A VTX "fakesetter" is not a Response LXi and a VTX "WakeSetter" is not a VLX. It's a "crossover" boat; it's a compromise at both ends.

One thing missed in this discussion is the workout you are going to give your driver thru the course or free skiing. The driver has to compensate for the pull of the skier (reminder, it's not a direct drive) and you will probably knock buoys out with the boat in the course.

Not true at all. I did have that problem when I first got my VTX (cut diamond hull). I trimmed out the rudder and it now tracks very well thru the course. I spent a week at Lake Powell with a portable course set up. We had 4 drivers (only 1 of which, myself, had ever driven a course before). By the end of the week, we had wiped out 2 bouys with the boat, and both were caused by a skier going down and the driver not paying attention when he chopped the throttle to return to pick up the skier.

Don't get me wrong, it does not track like a Response, but it is NOT a workout for the driver if the rudder is trimmed properly.

As far as LSV vs VTX - I chose the VTX on Cut Diamond because I wanted the built in ballast and I would have added the tower anyway. I also like the graphics and knew that re-sale will be better on the VTX.

As far as Surfing a "bigger" guy - I've had novice 240# guys go roapless with nothing but built in ballast, floating wedge and 5 people in the boat. It's not the best wake, but it works.