Need slalom help....

[Toby]

im going to add a little more of a new school idea here than what has been mentioned...

when you come out of the turn the idea is get to the other side as quick as you can, in the best position right? ideally this happens with MINIMAL TENSION ON THE ROPE, because you have ideally carried speed through the turn. now, if this is not the case and you loose too much speed, the natural instinct is to fall back on the ski with your weight on your back foot. Moving your weight or your centre of mass (COM) onto your back foot does not allow you to get you to the other side as good as you would like. moving your COM back or away from the boat inhibits your abiltiy to maxamise speed(you want to move laterally not backwards, so why fall back on the ski?), you load the line, probably onto your back arm, with great force and when you hit the wakes...BANG. the boat wins and you come off second best, the tip rises and you loose direction off the second wake. because you have to loose the tension on the line you are normally pulled towards the boat instead of casting free and away from it..

seth has a great article on this page, read 'where to be on that ski'... http://www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3

Im confused toby where is my centre of mass?

1608malibu, do we know each other? where are you from?

centre of mass is a biomechanical term given to the balance point of the human body in a given position. in an anatomical standing position (this is the body in a standing position with feet together and hands at your side) to be precise, it is centered inbetween the exiting routes of the nerves exiting inbetween S2 in the sacrum, or more simply the boney area at the middle of the top of your butt..

in a basic skiing position, because your arms are extended and one foot is infront of the other its positon is changed and more around your belly button (up and to the front of your body). obviously this position of centre of mass is always changing as we ski. In west coast slalom youve probably heard the centre of mass term being used and generalised as your hips. effectively moving your centre of mass (or hips) in west coast (and new school in many ways) slalom is said to be an important concept to understand, and it suggests that knowing where it should be in parts of the course can help your skiing. Going by this THEORY it is one the most efficient way to ski, because moving the strongest concentrated area of your mass in the direction you wish to travel gets the best result.

and no i dont think west coast slalom is the bible of skiing.

[Rod S]

Lots of good info here but no one has mentioned the eyes. Your head follows your eyes and your body follows your head.

I'm curious as to what others focus their eyes on throughout the course. I was told a few years ago to look cross course at the next buoy, that this would keep my head level.

As you near the next bouy and it's apparent that the arc you have started and the momentum you have will carry you around it, look away from the bouy you are about to round and look cross course at the next one. Your head will turn with your eyes and your body will follow.

This worked well for me.

Combining the info from previous posts in this thread about body position coming out of the buoy and thinking about my eyes and head movements have really helped. But standing up mid-course is something I'm always working on. Maybe I'm tired, maybe I'm lazy, maybe I'm distracted, maybe it's just bad form. Whatever it is, it will pop up every few sets or so.

What works for me is looking down the buoy line going into an onside turn and looking downcourse but between the turn buoys and the drivers buoys ahead of the boat in an offside turn. As the ski finishes I'm looking down the rope and toward the back of the boat until I hit the second wake where I'm letting the ski start to change edges then I spot the buoy and look downcourse again. If I'm running late into a buoy my 30 years of bad habits spring up and I force the turn rotate my head and shoulders and look across course leaning like crazy and mentally thinking $#&%!!!! I hate when I do that I hope I have enough room to get up on the ski and get a nice turn to run this pass!!!

Whew... dang I just relived that pass sitting here typing it. Anyway, if I remember two main things I run the passes easy and for me it all starts with my hip and handle position. Leading hip forward not up and handle low elbows to my sides. The rest just falls in place.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Rod S

[Addictedto6]

While I agree the writeup is a little confusing, this is actually something I've been working on this at ball 1. Sometimes I get the "falling back" feeling as I finish the turn, then get pulled out of position & lose angle when I hook up. Sometimes it's the result of earlier problems (handle control in particular!). However, but many times it's just simply a balance issue at the finish of the turn before loading up.

The end result for me is a little different than the writeup. Since it's my onside, I can take the hit, but I lose angle BEFORE the wake (not after as the writeup suggests), making me late (and on my tail) going into ball 2.

By staying more centered on the ski throughout the turn, including the finish, the ski keeps it's speed and much smoother turn allowing me to keep my angle going into ball 2.

Greg, it starts with the gate changes & handle control you had me working on, but I think there's something to the concept behind the writeup...IIRC, it's similiar to the West Coast Slalom DVD "second gear acceleration" concept.

Kevin - this happens to you because you tilt your head and that causes a weight shift towards the tail of the ski. I saw that when we skied at the clinic. Not tilting your head is something that I can tell you to change at a specific point in the slalom course that will better your skiing. Something physical you can grasp onto and something at a finite point in the course. When you keep your head level your weight will stay where it was going into the turn, you were mostly balanced at that point, this allows the ski to arc around and provides a greater chance for the boat to load your hips first and not your shoulder- this is a west coast slalom thing and it works.

I'm finding that it still happens (usually at 1) even when I focus on keeping my head level around the buoy. It could be that I need to think about keeping it level longer out of the turn (I know should be all times ). When I combined the head level out at the ball with staying more centered w/ my hips as I finished and waiting a little longer to load up, it seemed to help.

I'll try thinking about keeping the head level longer (looking at back of boat when hooking up) tomorrow and will see if that helps.

greg, ok, ok you were right We had a 3rd today and he confirmed my head was dropping on my turn exit even when it was level around the ball. So I worked on keeping my head level through the complete as I was hooking up (looking down the buoy line initially and then up the rope towards the boat as I finished). Definitely much better even though I had very tired legs after lots of cycling Wed & Thur. Good day overall!

Edited June 1, 2007 by Addictedto6

[Toby]

im going to add a little more of a new school idea here than what has been mentioned...

when you come out of the turn the idea is get to the other side as quick as you can, in the best position right? ideally this happens with MINIMAL TENSION ON THE ROPE, because you have ideally carried speed through the turn. now, if this is not the case and you loose too much speed, the natural instinct is to fall back on the ski with your weight on your back foot. Moving your weight or your centre of mass (COM) onto your back foot does not allow you to get you to the other side as good as you would like. moving your COM back or away from the boat inhibits your abiltiy to maxamise speed(you want to move laterally not backwards, so why fall back on the ski?), you load the line, probably onto your back arm, with great force and when you hit the wakes...BANG. the boat wins and you come off second best, the tip rises and you loose direction off the second wake. because you have to loose the tension on the line you are normally pulled towards the boat instead of casting free and away from it..

seth has a great article on this page, read 'where to be on that ski'... http://www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3

Toby- nothing against you because I think you are just re-posting something that someone else said. And they said in such a way that is sounds really technical and that it must have come from someone who really is a good skier. I, however, can't use a single thing that was printed above in use on my slalom ski and I can dispute ever single point on there! Show me pictures of what you( or Seth if that is the case) mean and point out where those things are happening.

What does minimal mean?

what did I do to fall back?

Why does going to my back foot minimize my ability to create speed?

....

Greg, you are a very accomplished skier and obviously have a great wealth of knowledge in skiing. To be a guest coach at ski paradise is an awesome feather in your cap, i dont think gordon would allow any old joe coach have such an honour, so hats off to you for that.

i was just reading the instructional article you put up on the crew a while ago and i don’t disagree with any of what you wrote in it. i don’t think what ive said is that different from what you think. But im puzzled as to why you disagreed with what i wrote so much, so feel free to tell me why . Why is it not correct to carry speed into and out of the turn and have minimal load on the line and ski easily? Wont this help us stay balanced on the ski? You are not into back arm pressure are you? You spoke of staying counter-rotated and advancing on the ski. "My shoulders are starting to come forward and notice the water is starting to climb up higher on the ski tip. The one good thing I’ve got going for me here is that my shoulders are still counter- rotated." As i have said above in the previous post, i link this comment to essentially related to accelerating your centre of mass more than your ski. great stuff. i feel this all helps maintain your speed through the turn and be balanced on the ski. all relates to the speed=angle rule. This combined with the counter-rotation you spoke of makes it easier to move your hips (COM) towards the wake in my and many people’s opinions, and execute a good turn. Check out the bombs that little jonny t can drop on 1,3,5 http://www.awsasouth.com/Nats%20video/friday/jtravers.wmv . not many people drop in as much as lil jon on their onside, and personally I like his offside more. but heck it works, he's been spankin 39 everywhere so far this season, so there is something good goin on down there at sunset.

i love these photos of rossi (they make great desktop backgrounds too ) http://skitek.net/tek/gallery/ Notice the difference in angle between his lower body and upper body and is in a C position (i hated using 'the c position' because it is a west coast term and rossi is NOT WCS, but for a lack of a better description i used it), this clearly shows his hips moving back towards the wake. This allows him to also keep his shoulders level and therefore his head up = balanced and with good vision.

watch this video http://www.skiwestcoast.com/skiwestcoast.c...NT%20Video.html (from INT nats last year, its awesome ) and see how much speed rossi and jamie carry through the turn and how late they pick the boat up. (I dont think rossi's 38 is his best ever pass but still nice.. and jamie's 41... well.. its 41, but still better than parrishs' 41 on edged in water ) So i guess my take on minimal is low amounts of line tension because of good speed, and equally as important, is having the load for the least amount of time possible.

"What did i do to fall back?" i spoke of this 'falling back' as a common thing that amateur skiers such as myself do when we loose too much speed in a less than ideal attempt to accelerate, loading the line and thus having a negative impact on how easy we ski.

One final note: this is an awesome pull-out http://www.lakesatcottonwood.com/Carly_4.jpg it shows carly countering to the boat and moving out with her hips. the pull is even through her arms and she is up on the ski. great pic

ive had enough for now

Edited June 2, 2007 by Toby

[skisix@38]

Greg, you are a very accomplished skier and obviously have a great wealth of knowledge in skiing. To be a guest coach at ski paradise is an awesome feather in your cap, i dont think gordon would allow any old joe coach have such an honour, so hats off to you for that.

i was just reading the instructional article you put up on the crew a while ago and i don’t disagree with any of what you wrote in it. i don’t think what ive said is that different from what you think. But im puzzled as to why you disagreed with what i wrote so much, so feel free to tell me why . Why is it not correct to carry speed into and out of the turn and have minimal load on the line and ski easily? Wont this help us stay balanced on the ski? You are not into back arm pressure are you? You spoke of staying counter-rotated and advancing on the ski. "My shoulders are starting to come forward and notice the water is starting to climb up higher on the ski tip. The one good thing I’ve got going for me here is that my shoulders are still counter- rotated." As i have said above in the previous post, i link this comment to essentially related to accelerating your centre of mass more than your ski. great stuff. i feel this all helps maintain your speed through the turn and be balanced on the ski. all relates to the speed=angle rule. This combined with the counter-rotation you spoke of makes it easier to move your hips (COM) towards the wake in my and many people’s opinions, and execute a good turn. Check out the bombs that little jonny t can drop on 1,3,5 http://www.awsasouth.com/Nats%20video/friday/jtravers.wmv . not many people drop in as much as lil jon on their onside, and personally I like his offside more. but heck it works, he's been spankin 39 everywhere so far this season, so there is something good goin on down there at sunset.

i love these photos of rossi (they make great desktop backgrounds too ) http://skitek.net/tek/gallery/ Notice the difference in angle between his lower body and upper body and is in a C position (i hated using 'the c position' because it is a west coast term and rossi is NOT WCS, but for a lack of a better description i used it), this clearly shows his hips moving back towards the wake. This allows him to also keep his shoulders level and therefore his head up = balanced and with good vision.

watch this video http://www.skiwestcoast.com/skiwestcoast.c...NT%20Video.html (from INT nats last year, its awesome ) and see how much speed rossi and jamie carry through the turn and how late they pick the boat up. (I dont think rossi's 38 is his best ever pass but still nice.. and jamie's 41... well.. its 41, but still better than parrishs' 41 on edged in water ) So i guess my take on minimal is low amounts of line tension because of good speed, and equally as important, is having the load for the least amount of time possible.

"What did i do to fall back?" i spoke of this 'falling back' as a common thing that amateur skiers such as myself do when we loose too much speed in a less than ideal attempt to accelerate, loading the line and thus having a negative impact on how easy we ski.

One final note: this is an awesome pull-out http://www.lakesatcottonwood.com/Carly_4.jpg it shows carly countering to the boat and moving out with her hips. the pull is even through her arms and she is up on the ski. great pic

ive had enough for now

Toby,

You have put a lot of effort into your response and I appreciate you trying to explain your case to me. You didn't need to though, I wasn't disagreeing with your position. I must not have stated myself concisely enough. My position on your post was that you didn't provide the OP with "how" to advance the ski through the wakes. Or "how" to not fall back during the turn.

So, it's not what you said, it's the approach to fixing it. Everything you said and the pictures you posted are good examples. I like to give skiers something they can do, some action they can perform to clear up the symptom. I just learned what "advancing the ski" meant while I was at SP. I can't tell you the number of times I had coaches tell me to do this and I had no idea what to do with the info. The other frequently misused saying is "get your hips up". When struggling through 22 off I heard this saying endlessly and I never knew what to do with it. Those are just some examples.

Thank you for saying the nice things you said.

[M3Fan]

Ok, so what exactly does "advancing the ski" mean and in what phase of the course would I need to do that?

If it refers to keeping the ski out in front of you, I'd imagine all phases of the course.

[krward]

All I can say is keep the tips and the info coming. I am newbie to the course and first time I ran the course the driver said how fast do you like to ski? I said 32. Well 3 turns later the course had passed me by and providing a significant humbling. So much for thinking I was a great skier. I am curious to know if anyone does anything besides tying a handle to something solid and working on form? I am all for anything that will just help muscle memory. Soon as I get past 3 ball and I am too late to salvage anything my brain turns off and all my bad habits come out.

[M3Fan]

All I can say is keep the tips and the info coming. I am newbie to the course and first time I ran the course the driver said how fast do you like to ski? I said 32. Well 3 turns later the course had passed me by and providing a significant humbling. So much for thinking I was a great skier. I am curious to know if anyone does anything besides tying a handle to something solid and working on form? I am all for anything that will just help muscle memory. Soon as I get past 3 ball and I am too late to salvage anything my brain turns off and all my bad habits come out.

For starters, slow it down to learn the course. I was probably going 27 MPH the first time I made the course. I'll go ahead and shamelessly plug my website, dedicated to beginning course skiers: Fifteenoff.com . Stop on by, we'd love to have you!

[krward]

All I can say is keep the tips and the info coming. I am newbie to the course and first time I ran the course the driver said how fast do you like to ski? I said 32. Well 3 turns later the course had passed me by and providing a significant humbling. So much for thinking I was a great skier. I am curious to know if anyone does anything besides tying a handle to something solid and working on form? I am all for anything that will just help muscle memory. Soon as I get past 3 ball and I am too late to salvage anything my brain turns off and all my bad habits come out.

For starters, slow it down to learn the course. I was probably going 27 MPH the first time I made the course. I'll go ahead and shamelessly plug my website, dedicated to beginning course skiers: Fifteenoff.com . Stop on by, we'd love to have you!

Been to you site a few times and I like it. Guess I better register and have another forum to watch. By the way I slowed the boat down to 26 and now I can make it through the course. Still have some BAD habits I need to shake.

[Rod S]

Ok, so what exactly does "advancing the ski" mean and in what phase of the course would I need to do that?

Usually, I've noticed that I've advanced the ski right after the turn ball. I usually see a bunch of spray,whitewater and then a huge blur...when that clears I scan for my ski and see it gliding it's way over to the next buoy all by itself. If it goes far enough I just wait for the boat to go pick it up and bring it to me. If not, I swim over and click the ski back onto my bindings and wait for the boat to come around and pick me up.

Roberge used to talk about advancing the ski into the first wake but that was about 20 years ago.