Used Boat Prices Falling

[shawndoggy]

1 minute ago, redrooster said:

 When a dealer is used to selling 100 of something every year, and the manufacturer  says, you will get 2, do you think the dealer should wiggle on his profit margins?   I am sure the sales guy who has nothing to sell is willing to take a huge cut on his commissions so he won't make any money.  Not only that, the manufacturer  for sure jacked up.the prices to the dealer and those are locked in.  

 

I’m sure flooring costs on those 15 23’s on the local dealer’s lot are locked in too, but that doesn’t make the boats more attractive or more valuable to consumers. Those leftover boats lose money in depreciation and cost money in financing every day that they don’t get sold.  

[redrooster]

25 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

I’m sure flooring costs on those 15 23’s on the local dealer’s lot are locked in too, but that doesn’t make the boats more attractive or more valuable to consumers. Those leftover boats lose money in depreciation and cost money in financing every day that they don’t get sold.  

Exactly right. So all that responsibility falls on the dealers shoulders to lose money?  Until the manufacturer starts helping out I see no reason why a dealer should take 100% of the risk.  Which is sad, because a lot of dealers will go under. 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by redrooster

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, redrooster said:

Exactly right. So all that responsibility falls on the dealers shoulders to lose money?  Until the manufacturer starts helping out I see no reason why a dealer should take 100% of the risk.  Which is sad, because a lot of dealers will go under. 

Whether or not they SHOULD take on all of the risk, they already DID.  The first step in getting out of a hole is to stop digging.  I'm not sure waiting around for Malibu to come in to rescue individual dealers is going to make much sense.  Not a lot of loyalty from Malibu to its dealers over the years, even in the good years.  

[redrooster]

13 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Whether or not they SHOULD take on all of the risk, they already DID.  The first step in getting out of a hole is to stop digging.  I'm not sure waiting around for Malibu to come in to rescue individual dealers is going to make much sense.  Not a lot of loyalty from Malibu to its dealers over the years, even in the good years.  

I am not saying malibu is supposed to come in and save the dealer, but the anger at dealers is very misplaced.  Manufacturers usually have a required buy in every year and want 20% growth.  I don't know any dealers that can not order new product for that upcoming model year.  Go look at a Kubota dealership, or any car dealership.  I am sure the Manufacturers aren't hurting after loading up dealers.  The manufacturer  got their margins, now the dealer has to try and get theirs.  

I would say this whole issue is a better indicator of a bad manufacturer who tried to get away with just in time manufacturing, or went over seas to get product.  

[JeffK]

2 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

zactly.  I don't think this is going to look like 08-09 (mass extinction of boat dealers), but it's definitely going to be a bad year.  Do I have any sympathy for my local dealer who is sitting on 19 brand new (15 of which are 2023s) Axis and Malibu boats (in addition to numerous cobalts, benningtons and chris crafts)?  No, no I do not.  These were the guys who wouldn't deal a dime off of MSRP 18 months ago.  Reap whatcha sew.

In the same regard, I know several dealers that played fair and kept pricing at the same margins regardless of the economic conditions and they will feel the same pains sadly. No good deed goes unpunished.

[The Hulk]

22 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

I’m sure flooring costs on those 15 23’s on the local dealer’s lot are locked in too, but that doesn’t make the boats more attractive or more valuable to consumers. Those leftover boats lose money in depreciation and cost money in financing every day that they don’t get sold.  

 

22 hours ago, redrooster said:

  Which is sad, because a lot of dealers will go under. 

 

 

 

Yup. 

Banks/financing are scared to death. Mfgs like bu will have to step in to acquire that inventory when it happens or risk their grip on pricing power. Sadly they may not step in if it's a small dealer with a few boats and the surrounding fire sale damage is deemed acceptable. 

Not to add a double whammy but some places can't make as much on indoor storage now due to so many new boats in stock further reducing cash flow. 

Most dealers are headed to pre great recession numbers and quickly.  

IMO fed rate cuts will be minimal and too late to make a difference for avg Joe financing a toy. Keep in mind that minimum 12 month lag effect. We're only feeling the pain from the rate hikes long ago. What will happen when the current rates flow through in 9-18mo? 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by The Hulk

[The Hulk]

1 major mfg  now down 40% on fiscal Q4, and are revising fiscal Q1 budgets even lower.  Several mfgs already implementing Forward & Backward facing Discounts. Ironically some dealers are STILL reluctant to pass those fully onto the customers especially any backend deals not flowing through. 

The Mfgs are reducing their income/revenues by increasing the liabilities booked for discounts. Hot topic on the financial engineering with the Accountants/controllers right now. 

Large Dealers with a lot of overhead are finding themselves in a pickle, as well as the tiny dealers sitting on a few expensive boats not moving. Mid-tier dealers are fairing the best overall right now although doesn't mean they are all fine. One issue as well is that most of these mid tier guys have picked up multiple lines/brands where one or two brands aren't moving another one did and they are ok and cant afford to order anymore of the moving units since they are strapped down from the non-movers. 

More entry/budget options coming to market for several brands.

Wakeboats are one of if not already the hardest hit in the entire sector right now. 

[Nick55]

I agree, I predict the interest rate drops will not be soon enough for average Joe boater to take advantage of new boats sitting (but if a new Supra SA can be had for $110k, I might be tempted to pull some investment funds…..) 

My local dealer mimics a mid-tier multi line dealer that you mentioned Hulk.   They aren’t moving much on Malibu/Axis but they have a ton of boat club Cobalts as well as the huge one that fell through this fall, and I’m seeing some flexibility there.   They have virtually no inventory of the two pontoon brands they sell.  Though honestly, I’m not in tune with that market and I don’t know what kind of deals/pricing those have. 

[Raleigh]

Spoke to my dealer today and they are back to 2019 levels. Nothing panicky. 

[dizzygti]

Anecdotal, but a few dealers I drive by on the way to work have noticeably more room on their lots.   None are Malibu/Axis dealers though.   Inventory at boat shows?   Christmas shoppers have reduced inventory with surprises for the family ahead of holidays?   It's just that time of year?   Who knows....

[dlb]

8 hours ago, Raleigh said:

Spoke to my dealer today and they are back to 2019 levels. Nothing panicky. 

We live in an area where the economy is doing quite well.

[Steve B.]

Here too dlb. Low gas prices don't hurt. My local huge dealer seems to have no problem moving units. Their commitment to service over many years has to add to stability. As an aside, this same outfit equally commits to winter sports sales/service as we have a snow ski area 5 miles away. Grateful for their positive impact on our local economy. For over 50 years.

[onwi]

On 12/19/2023 at 4:58 PM, Nick55 said:

I agree, I predict the interest rate drops will not be soon enough for average Joe boater to take advantage of new boats sitting (but if a new Supra SA can be had for $110k, I might be tempted to pull some investment funds…..) 

My local dealer mimics a mid-tier multi line dealer that you mentioned Hulk.   They aren’t moving much on Malibu/Axis but they have a ton of boat club Cobalts as well as the huge one that fell through this fall, and I’m seeing some flexibility there.   They have virtually no inventory of the two pontoon brands they sell.  Though honestly, I’m not in tune with that market and I don’t know what kind of deals/pricing those have. 

What is your opinion on the SA's wakeboard wake?  That is a very attractive price point for me if the wake is right.

[Nick55]

I haven’t wakeboarded behind one.  I do believe @dalt1 has one though.  Maybe it’s an SL, I can’t remember.  
 

That being said, I’m pretty sure that’s close to half price, so doubt they’d ever get to that. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Nick55

[hunter77ah]

2 hours ago, onwi said:

What is your opinion on the SA's wakeboard wake?  That is a very attractive price point for me if the wake is right.

Glad to see there are still a few of us out there…

[dalt1]

4 hours ago, Nick55 said:

I haven’t wakeboarded behind one.  I do believe @dalt1 has one though.  Maybe it’s an SL, I can’t remember.  
 

That being said, I’m pretty sure that’s close to half price, so doubt they’d ever get to that. 

I do have an SL. When shopping that was one of my main criteria, the long line wake. I ride Airchair at 90' back and the wake is comparable to the Malibu wake that I loved. That being said, you wake boarders seem to like a lippy wake back there and I like just a big hump. I never try to create the lip on mine. 

[dwc032]

The wife and I went and looked at new boats and we were quoted over 200 for ok equipped 2024 23 MXZ and 235 for a well equipped 2023 25 LSV. Prices are still super high here in the PNW. 

[CaptainMorgan]

5 hours ago, dwc032 said:

The wife and I went and looked at new boats and we were quoted over 200 for ok equipped 2024 23 MXZ and 235 for a well equipped 2023 25 LSV. Prices are still super high here in the PNW. 

looking at onlyinboards -- those are both >$50k more than a bunch of 2022 or 2023's listed for sale.  if that's where new prices are staying, its gonna help sustain the used market value significantly...or just keep people out of the sport entirely.

Granted there are always more wealthy people than i realize, but i went back and looked at my own price vs wage growth -- since i bought my A24 in mid 2019, my salary has increased ~15% while the price to buy the equivalent Axis new (an A245) i'd estimate is 70% higher than what i paid. And that's for a boat only marginally more capable (couple hundred pounds of ballast, a little freeboard and a touch screen).  

i love boats / wake sports and am reasonably well off financially with a history of irrational boating purchases...but without some major catalyst, it'd be really hard to sell me a new boat at this point.  

[Stevo]

2 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

looking at onlyinboards -- those are both >$50k more than a bunch of 2022 or 2023's listed for sale.  if that's where new prices are staying, its gonna help sustain the used market value significantly...or just keep people out of the sport entirely.

Granted there are always more wealthy people than i realize, but i went back and looked at my own price vs wage growth -- since i bought my A24 in mid 2019, my salary has increased ~15% while the price to buy the equivalent Axis new (an A245) i'd estimate is 70% higher than what i paid. And that's for a boat only marginally more capable (couple hundred pounds of ballast, a little freeboard and a touch screen).  

i love boats / wake sports and am reasonably well off financially with a history of irrational boating purchases...but without some major catalyst, it'd be really hard to sell me a new boat at this point.  

This goes without saying but it depends on the options. Id like to see those prices stay high to sustain my value that’s for sure

there is a slightly used 2022 25lsv on CL in my area for much less that what we paid , but is pretty bare bones . When you add LT4, GX , clamping racks and a Tri axle and a stereo pack that gap shrinks significantly.

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/boa/d/sacramento-2022-malibu-lsv25/7687681292.html

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Stevo

[dwc032]

Well we paid 140 for our 2020 23 MXZ. The 2023 my dealer has on the lot right now is going for 195. That’s 55k more for the exact same boat I bought back in 2020. Nothing changed between 2020 and 2023. I get the whole inflation thing and such, but 55k for literally the same boat?

I hate to say it but I will not being buying a new boat locally. I will travel and save myself 50-75k. I know I will loose the local service and not be put in line first if I have warranty issues, but I’ll take the chance. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by dwc032

[EchelonMike]

While I think it would benefit me to be a bit more patient, we just put a deposit down on a lightly used 2022 23 LSV (20 hours).   It's pretty well loaded with everything we want, and has a color combo we just love...hard to find those combinations in the used market sometimes.  Clamping racks, flip step swim platform, 2 pair of ICON's on the tower, underwater lights, docking lights, interior LEDs, flip/slide rear seat, etc.  They're also storing it inside for us until spring, and are going to deliver it to our lake as well (5 hours away).  Doing the warranty inspection and transfer the first week of Jan.  We sold our OG 247 in the fall and did great on that sale after owning for 5-6 years. 

We got quotes on a new Axis 245, and also some quotes on some leftover 2022 and 2023 23 LSVs but they either didn't have the options we wanted or they were colors combos that we didn't care for.  Way, way, way more money too.  

 

[Steve B.]

Sounds like a beauty EchelonMike. Can't wait to see photo's next season.

[EchelonMike]

16 minutes ago, Steve B. said:

Sounds like a beauty EchelonMike. Can't wait to see photo's next season.

Thanks, Steve!  A few teasers from the dealer.  :-) 

 

[Pnwrider]

3 hours ago, dwc032 said:

 

I hate to say it but I will not being buying a new boat locally. I will travel and save myself 50-75k. I know I will loose the local service and not be put in line first if I have warranty issues, but I’ll take the chance. 

I have a feeling it will eventually start affecting the pnw dealers but clearly we aren’t there yet. RV sales are though. Starting to see close to 50% off msrp on leftover ‘22 models. I had to buy my truck from the Midwest a few weeks ago because all the dealers here are still minimum 10k over sticker. 

[The Hulk]

7 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Granted there are always more wealthy people than i realize, but i went back and looked at my own price vs wage growth -- since i bought my A24 in mid 2019, my salary has increased ~15% while the price to buy the equivalent Axis new (an A245) i'd estimate is 70% higher than what i paid. And that's for a boat only marginally more capable (couple hundred pounds of ballast, a little freeboard and a touch screen).  

i love boats / wake sports and am reasonably well off financially with a history of irrational boating purchases...but without some major catalyst, it'd be really hard to sell me a new boat at this point.  

This about sums up inflation!

Boats probably blow this outta the water

But hey looking back further to 50yrs then moving forward  +50 yrs from now, the AVERAGE home price will only be 6.3M and the average car will only be $850k.

Doesn't seem so bad right? I mean wages are totally outpacing inflation 🤔🤔🤔 

So who knows maybe used boat prices will stay higher than normal for longer but are they? When u Factor in inflation? 🤔

 😢

Edited December 23, 2023 by The Hulk